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Dragonlance: War of the Lance discussion thread

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Creation & Customization' started by Supa, Oct 30, 2005.

  1. Supa

    Supa Out of Cheese Error

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    What's Dragonlance

    Dragonlance was an Advanced Dungeon and Dragons setting owned by TSR. They knew fame with the very sucessful books by Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman, books based on the Dragonlance campaign they wrote. Dragonlance universe expanded with a lot a ADD supplement and a neverending series of books. When TSR collapsed, Weis and Hickman took their toys with them and published a new game system that also expandent the timeline: SAGA. It wasn't enough sold to be kept alive. Recently (well, a few years ago), Dragonlance came back to the gaming universe with the popular D20 system.

    In the original campaign, the players (taking the role of preprepared characters) struggling in a desesparate situation.
    The gods left the world three centuries ago. They threw a moutain on the King-Priest of Istar to punish him for his quest to become a god. The Nation of Istar was destroyed and its remains now lie in the newly formed Blood Sea. All Ansalon was touched by the Cataclysm. Moutains formed, nations were flooded, commercial roads were severed, areas were separated from the continent, volcanoes emerged. And the Gods disappeared and with them, the Divine magic. Only three gods remained to Krynn: Solinari, Lunitari and Nuitari, the three moon-gods of Arcane Magic. 350 years after, Takhisis came in the world in secret, building a new army in Neraka, preparing to take over the world with the aid her children, the Chromatic Dragons and her new perversion: The Draconians.

    The Timeline

    The scenario will cover the War of the Lance and a part of the Age of Despair preceding it. Most nations will start with very few units and a catastrophic treasure situation. Solamnics will be even worse with a governement unadequate for their large empire.

    The Map

    It is my Ansalon map, already modified with new rivers and new moutains (they're will be impassable for most, adding more strategy).

    The Civilizations

    The following nations appear in the scenario: Abanasania (Human), Ackal (Human), Balifor (Human), Blode (Ogre), Daltigoth (Ogre), Ergoth (Human), Goodlong (Kender), Hylo (Kender), Kagonesti (Elf), Kern (Ogre), Kaolyn (Dwarf), Kharolis (Human), Khur (Human), Lemish (Human), Blood Sea Islands (Minotaur), Noordmar (Human), Nuilond (Ghost), Qualinesti (Elf), Sancrist (Gnome), Silvanesti (Elf), Shaifum (Human), Solamnia (Human), Taman Busuk / Neraka (Human), Tarsis (Human), Thorbardin (Dwarf), Throtl (Hobgobelin), Zhakar (Dwarf). 27 in total.

    The Gods

    Each civ starts the scenario with 1 main god and 1 secondary god, represented by starting (no-era) tech. Each god comes with its own set of buildings, wonders, units and, hopefuly, strategies. The main gods are the 'chief' of their alignments: Paladine, Gilean and Thakisis, respectively God of Good, Neutrality and Evil. Additionnaly, each civilization starts with a secondary god from the same or closest alignement: Solamnia, starting with Paladine worsphip, has Kiri-Jolith (Good God of Power and Honor) as second god and Zakhar, starting with Takhisis cult, has Shinare (Neutral God of Commerce) as second god. Noone can have a secondary god from the main god's opposite side. The secondary gods are: Branchallan, Habbakuk, Kiri-Jolith, Chislev, Reorx, Shinare, Hiddukel, Sargonnas, Zeboim. The 'left-over' gods are not forgotten: Majere, Mishakal, Sirrion, Zivilyn, Chemosh and Morgion are present with Great Wonders accessible only with the chief god of their alignment.

    The Races

    The third no-era starting tech is the race: Human, Dwarf, Elf, Kender, Ogre, Minotaur, Gobelinoïd. Each comes with specific ressources, buildings and/or units.

    With the three starting tech, I hope they won't be two identical civilizations to play.

    The Dragons

    Dragons, Draconians and Dragonlances were a tricky feature to integrate in Civ-3. They are probably the most recognized entities in Dragonlance (with the Kenders, ok ;)), so they must have an important role but they can't be too common or their stats will have to be decreased.

    So, they all come with Wonders and Small Wonders.

    The typical Dragon wonder is built like this: Red Dragonarmy, medium cost, medium maintenance, produces Red Dragon unit every X turns. The Red Dragon can then upgrades to Red Flight, a stronger unit requiring Iron. In order to prevent AI and players to build directly Red Flight, it is be a King unit and thus impossible to build. Each dragon type has its own Great Wonder. Chromatic Dragon Wonders are available to all civilizations starting with Takhisis (Perhaps it will be changed to only Neraka, I'm not sure). Metallic Dragon Wonders are available to all civilizations starting with Paladine.

    Draconian production is similar. The Great Wonder "Draconian Ritual" is required for all others Draconian Rituals, it's the main bone of the creation of Draconian and does nothing but being a prerequisite. The typical Draconian Wonder is like this: The Copper Corruption, medium maintenance, requires Copper Egg (Perhaps a generic Metallic Eggs for all the goods dragons ?) and Draconian Ritual, produces a Kapak Draconian. The Kapak Draconian can be upgraded to Kapak Assassin by the same system of Dragon/Dragon Flight. Only Neraka will be able to build the Draconian Ritual.

    You have 3 differents way to have Dragonlance in your armies. The 3 require you to start with Paladine. The first is to find a Dragonlance cache: An old room, hidden in the city or in a forgotten ruin, filled with antique Dragonlances. You have the possibility to build Dragonlance Restoration in the nearest city. This building produces a Lesser Dragonlancer every X turns. With again the same system as Dragon/Dragon Flight, you can upgrade your Lesser Dragonlancer to Horse Dragonlancer, requiring Horse of course. The second way is the Silver Arm small wonder, requiring Draconic Metal and producing a Dragonlancer every X turns. Dragonlancer can upgrade to Knight Dragonlancer (If you are Solamnic, per exemple) then to Knight-Dragon (When you've convinced the Metallic Dragons to join your side of the war). The Hammer of Kharas GW works exactly the same way. The third way is to own a Silver Arm and the Hammer of Kharas: You'll be able to produce a Great Dragonlancer, upgrading to Noble Dragonlancer and Wyrm Dragonlancer.

    Of course Lesser Dragonlancer is weaker than Dragonlancer who is weaker than Great Dragonlancer.

    The Heroes

    Some civs start with a Hero, a specific unit a little stronger than the regular starting units. Some will be able to improve with specific ressource. I haven't explored this a lot yet. But it will be something like that:

    Silvara, a Kagonesti Hero with modest stats but Invisible and with HP boost. With the Huma Tomb ressource, she will be able to upgrade to Dargent, a strong Silver Dragon.

    Ruins

    Krynn is a devasted world. There are a lot of ruins and lost secrets in every region. The ruins are an important element of the scenario. They can bring wealth, technologies, new units, new buildings. They are two types of Ruins : The generic Ruins and the specific places. Generic ruins will be abundant and will give access to medium or small rewards. Specific ruins are far more rare.

    Xak Tsaroth is one of them. Located in Abanasania, it contains the Disk of Mishakal. These disks are researched by both Force of Good and Force of Evil. To one, it will give cultural and 'happy face' boost. To the other, it will give out some secrets about the good gods (Perhaps two free techs in Civ-3 terms ?).

    But both regular and specific ruins can be guarded by fierce barbarians. Horde of Gobelins, rogue Dragon, reptilian creatures or... Gully Dwarves! ;)

    That's all for now, folks!
     
  2. Spacer One

    Spacer One Avatar subject to change

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    I dont have time to read it all right now...but Im so onboard this idea...anything I can do to help, just lemme know...

    I read the DL series(until Steel was a main char) religously...
     
  3. Spacer One

    Spacer One Avatar subject to change

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    No Kendermore?
    and how about adding Dargonesti/Dimernesti elves??
    and of the 3 types of dwarves there is 1 dwarven nation...at least do Hill and Mountain dwarves seperatly (quote from ForgottenLance.com)" There are two races of dwarves on Krynn. Hill dwarves and mountain dwarves. Their names reflect where they live: hill dwarves live on the hills outside of the underground kingdom of Thorbardin, while mountain dwarves live inside the mountain fortress, Thorbardin."

    To leave Mishakal out as a starting God, but allow Kiri-Jolith...I feel is a mistake...

    Only Kapak Draconians?...Sivacs were more common in the books...and you should add Oracks too(golds as the spelling is prolly wrong)

    what about the Towers of High Sorcery?...I think there should be a "Mages" civ, that isnt restricted racially...maybe 3 wonders, that let them make the 3 types of mage?...


    Few Master Toade...and Bupu the Gully Dwarf...
    PLEASE MAKE Kit and Skye...
     
  4. Supa

    Supa Out of Cheese Error

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    Kendermore: Kendermore is there but I listed it under the name of Goodlong.

    Dargonesti and Dimernesti elves won't be in the mod, or as barbarian units only. With the Civ-3 architecture, there is no way to integrate underwater civilizations.

    Thorbardin and dwarves : Thorbardin is not the only dwarf nation :) Kayolin was part of the Thorbardin kingdom before the Cataclysm. After, it is separated from Thorbardin with the New Sea. During the War of Lance, it was an ally of Solamnia and even almost a Solamnic province. Zakhar is the "evil" dwarf nation. They live between Sanction and the Khur. There is also a dark storie about the true thoradin and a disfiguring plague but I don't remember it well. Hill dwarfs won't make as nation is this scenario. Their territory is way too small and it's not really a nation but an handful of village and cities without a main power (as Solace and Haven).

    Mishakal and Kiri-Jolith:
    I left out Mishakal for 2 reasons. First, to have the same number of secondary starting gods for all alignment. Second: Because I felt Mishakal is an important goddess in the stories and should be an element in all "Paladine" nations. Kiri-Jolith is a logic choice when you think the Solamnic nation is based around honor and force, the Kiri-Jolith symbols. My only problem with Kiri-Jolith is that Solamnia is the only nation starting with it :-/ I don't know who else could have KJ. Minotaur already have Sargonnas.

    Draconians. No, no, don't worry, the 4 other main draconians are there too :) I pick Kapack here as an exemple.

    Towers of High Sorcery: I haven't chosen yet how I will implement arcane magic in the mod. Maybe I will do this : A unplayable High Council of Magic Civ with lots of different magic ressources, able to defend themself but also to trade their magic capabilities with others civs. I don't know yet.

    Kit will perhaps make it as hero unit :) What do you think: Nerakian Hero or Nuilond Hero (when you look her team up with Lord Soth) ?
     
  5. Spacer One

    Spacer One Avatar subject to change

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    Kit is Teamed with SOTH??? ...did you read the Ravenloft book Castle of the Black Roses? I suppose thats after the War, but...they were mortal enemies after the war, when Soth went to Ravenloft...

    Are you using anything from the Sextant?...

    as far as the dwarves, I guess you're right, although the heros did specifically get help from hill dwarves
    Dimernesti are underwater, but Dargonesti are "Shoal" elves...and have been known to mingle with other elves...perhaps just Dargonesti units not civ?...
    I understand your choice of Kiri-Jolith...him, Paladine, and Mishikal are the 3 gods of the Solamnic knights...

    Towers of High Sorcery...the event that makes Raistlin into Fistandandalous(sp?) is VERY important...

    Also...what about Bupu?...

    [edit[] another thought...make the Inn of last home, era specific, so it can burn down and Tika can rebuild it...
     
  6. Supa

    Supa Out of Cheese Error

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    I didn't read any Ravenloft books. During the War of the Lance, Kit was a war partner of Lord Soth. They didn't like each others much but they were partners. For this scenario, it could fit.

    The Sextant ? I don't see what it is. Edition: Could that be the Meetings Sextet, the series from Kindred spirits to The Companions ? To be honest, I don't remember much beside the first one and the talking mammoth.

    Dargonesti are the coast sea-elves and Dimernesti are the Deep sea elves. Or vice-versa. Anyway, even if they're coastal 'sea' elves and not true sea elves, they aren't on lands and thus, I can't make them in the game. :-/

    Bupu ? Well, I don't see how she can be in the game.. There isn't any Gully Dwarf nation.

    The Inn of the Last Home will be in. But I don't know how yet :) Great Wonder for Human, for Abanasania or for Shinare ? Or an Abanasianian preplaced Wonder.
     
  7. egroen

    egroen Her Grace

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    I would be more than happy to hop on this bandwagon as soon as LotM is finished! Nice vision so far!
     
  8. Spacer One

    Spacer One Avatar subject to change

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    Bupu is the Gully dwarf, Im suggestion as a "character" she is the one who showed the heros the "Seecrit playse" and I feel she was integral in the development of the story...I would like to see a Bupu cameo...

    I understand the sea elf thing...I just REALLY LIKE Dargonesti elves, but Kagonesti comes in second dso its kewl...

    Yes the Meetings Sextant...the events 'right beforte the war" as it were...the books wrhere the heros travel seperate and have mini adventures...
    but now that I think about it, Im talking about the "Tales" 1&2 series...the three books sets about what happened during the time the Heros were apart (when they first met at the Inn...they parted ways for a year, vowing to return to the Inn of Last Home...Kit never showed up)

    I only ask because that makes the Moon Lunitari part od Kit/sturms atory, and they meet Gnomes who fly them in an airship...(Darkness and Light)
    Flint has an adventure where Gully Dwarves kidnap him...(Flint the King)
    Raistlin takes his test, (killing the Mock Caramon in the process)
    Tanis goes back to Silvanost, Meets Silvara and Gilthanas and learns he is to be King of the Elven Nation of Silvanost(At which point he bails for Solace under cover of dark)
    Tass becomes a hero in Kendermore(stupid book)(Kendermore I thing its called)

    thats what I remember off hand, I'll read the books again if it helps...as well as the Chroincles...
     
  9. Supa

    Supa Out of Cheese Error

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    Well, yes, I know who is Bupu. But I can't find a way to integrate her in the game. If you think of one, make it known. I liked Bupu as well :)

    Sturm and Kit going to the Lunitari was part of the Preludes series I think. The others stories too. The Preludes were what the Companion have done during the 7 (7?) years before the War of the Lance. The Meeting Sextants was the gathering of the Companions. And to answer yours questions: Yes and no. Obviously, characters driven stories will be hard to integrate in a way or another. But context, cities, technologies, armies can used.

    Eh.. Kendermore and the Pocket Dimension :lol:

    I'd like to see the Lunitari adventure in the scenario. Probably as a Wonder. Airship are in the scenario for sure: Gnomish UU.
     
  10. Spacer One

    Spacer One Avatar subject to change

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    Bupu could be guarding one of the "treasue" spots, as thats what she did in the books...technically...

    No more suggestions from me...you know as much as I do, and seem to have a good grip on this idea...

    If you like, I will start making Icons for the main characters, and such...looking for buildings etc...
    I was gonna make the Inn of last home anyway, and I will look for more landmarks...
     
  11. Plotinus

    Plotinus Philosopher Administrator

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    Lots of good ideas there. Personally I think it's going to be very difficult integrating Hero units into a game like this. But you might manage it!

    One problem with making the souped-up dragon units into King units, I think, is that if they get killed the controlling civ is out of the game. At least, I'm fairly sure that would happen.

    I don't remember a single Sivak, Kopak or Aurak in the books, by the way. They all seemed to be Baaz and Bozaks. However, I don't think there are five different kinds of draconian units available on the boards anyway, so I'll be interested to see how you get them in...
     
  12. Sword_Of_Geddon

    Sword_Of_Geddon Mysterious Jungle Warrior

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    I am certain the other three types of Dragonians appeared in later books Plotinus. But I do know they exist during the War of the Lance era.
     
  13. Spacer One

    Spacer One Avatar subject to change

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    Its not unreasonable to me, that if all the heros of a civ die, you lose...but thats for Supa to work out..
     
  14. Supa

    Supa Out of Cheese Error

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    It would.. If I activate the Regicide option. Which I won't do. The various King units aren't the typical king units. Also, the AI King flag isn't checked. The AI uses them as regular units.

    The Heroes units won't be essential to the game and if they are causing too much problems, I'll take them out. They way I seem them, they won't win your wars but they'll help you from time to time. They are here primarily to give a little wink to the book readers and, why not, to give a little emotional attachment to yours units ;)

    The chosen Heroes are for the moment: Silvara for the Kagonesti, Lord Soth for Nuilond, Sturm for Solamnia, Raistlin for the Council for High Sorcery (If they make to the game that way), Tasslehoff for Kenderhome/Goodlong, Gnosh for the Gnome (Do they need a hero unit?), Lauralanthalasa for the Qualinesti (or another one for Solamnia ? Golden General and all that), Kitiara for Neraka, Caramon for Abanasania. I will appreciate any ideas or comments :)

    From the books, I'm pretty sure there are some Auraks in the flying Citadel. But most were stone-turning Baaz. Anyway, about the units : I won't have the choice, I'll have to make them myself.

    Spacer One, egroen: I'd be more than happy if you can provide help. Suggestions, graphics or gameplay tips.
     
  15. CyberChrist

    CyberChrist You caught my attention

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    Since Draconians are one of my favourite fantasy races (second only to the Skavens of the Warhammer universe) then I will be following the development of this mod with great interest. :)

    Btw, then it is fully possible to make ocean/sea cities and naval settlers/workers, but I am not sure if the AI would be able to make sufficiently proper use of this though and abuse of regular settlers (by players) might be a problem also. Of course then the sea dwellers would require special improvments and/or resources (that would only be available to them) to boost their production from water tiles.
     
  16. Plotinus

    Plotinus Philosopher Administrator

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    You can make sea settlers/workers, but the AI will not use them. But then, the Sea Elves play virtually no role whatsoever in the main plotlines of Krynn, as far as I can judge, so it's no big deal to leave them out!

    And I'm sure it was Bozaks in the flying citadels. It surprised me that they had all these cool kinds of draconians but you only ever seem to see those two. Bozaks aren't even very powerful magic-users, but still the heroes always seem very wary of them...

    I can't believe I just typed that! My brain is full only of worthy things, honest!
     
  17. CyberChrist

    CyberChrist You caught my attention

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    Maybe that is because they explode (like a Fireball spell) when they die - damaging anyone close enough ;)
     
  18. Supa

    Supa Out of Cheese Error

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    The Leaderheads

    As you can see, I'm currently selecting the leaderheads.

    See below for the updated pictures

    Comments, suggestions, willing to make a new LH ? ;)

    If Zulu release his Dwarf LH, I might use him for Thorbardin or Zakhar.There are no Ogre LH, so it's open season for who will make them. Same thing for the Kender nations, Gnomes and the Minotaurs. Of course, if they aren't done when I'll really need them, I would try to add Leaderheads making in my Civ3 CV ;)
     
  19. Thorgrimm

    Thorgrimm Senior Elder

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    Supa, I like your ideas and will be following this project, but I think it is GoodLund not Goodlong for the Kenders.:D




    :nuke: Cheers Thorgrimm :nuke:
     
  20. Gojira54

    Gojira54 The folly of Man

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    While I would love to see more Kaiju, this looks like a very good and ambitious project. If there is anything I can help you with, please let me know :)
     

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