[NFP] Dramatic Ages Discussion Thread

[pokiehl]

Weird coincidence, but while working on a mod I was searching through the text files and I came across what seems to be left over text from the old dark age system that Anton mentioned in the update video. Not really relevant to the new mode, but I just thought it was interesting.


It's located in C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\Sid Meier's Civilization VI\DLC\Expansion1\Text\en_US\Expansion1_Eras_Text.xml

Mother Forking Shirtballs!

-1 Amenities, -50% Growth. Two in a row and it gets really wild. Can’t even recapture the cities, coz now they’re barb camps!

Can we have it? Please? Pleeease?

It would hurt so good.

Hairy Jesus! It would just hurt if it was just some Civ next door! All the Barbs!!

This would have been truly awesome.

I think making Dark Ages so meaningless as to be ignorable or even desirable was a huge mistake.

I wish they had had the courage to make Dark Ages and Loyalty more punishing and more meaningful. As it is, the era system and Loyalty system are the most underdeveloped and disappointing mechanics in the entire game.

 

[kaspergm]

So basically we had here an anti-heroic age? I.e. Dark Age + Golden Age = Heroic Age, but Dark Age + Dark Age = Superdark Age? Well at least it would up the ante a bit on going deliberately for a dark age. Well Ii certainly like that idea, although I'd rather just see the heroic age completely gone (or completely reworked).

 

[tedhebert]

Weird coincidence, but while working on a mod I was searching through the text files and I came across what seems to be left over text from the old dark age system that Anton mentioned in the update video. Not really relevant to the new mode, but I just thought it was interesting.


It's located in C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\Sid Meier's Civilization VI\DLC\Expansion1\Text\en_US\Expansion1_Eras_Text.xml

Mother Forking Shirtballs!

-1 Amenities, -50% Growth. Two in a row and it gets really wild. Can’t even recapture the cities, coz now they’re barb camps!

Can we have it? Please? Pleeease?

It would hurt so good.

Hairy Jesus! It would just hurt if it was just some Civ next door! All the Barbs!!

This would have been truly awesome.

I think making Dark Ages so meaningless as to be ignorable or even desirable was a huge mistake.

I wish they had had the courage to make Dark Ages and Loyalty more punishing and more meaningful. As it is, the era system and Loyalty system are the most underdeveloped and disappointing mechanics in the entire game.

So basically we had here an anti-heroic age? I.e. Dark Age + Golden Age = Heroic Age, but Dark Age + Dark Age = Superdark Age? Well at least it would up the ante a bit on going deliberately for a dark age. Well Ii certainly like that idea, although I'd rather just see the heroic age completely gone (or completely reworked).

Oof my god... I'd love to play this, but... two things:

1) I don't remember a single instance of my having 2 dark ages in a row.... so.... i feel you'd have to patently make it happen, unless a change was made to the score system
2) Half ? To Barbarian camps ? At least as free cities, you'd be able to regain them, but I guess that came with loyalty and R&F, right, so that wouldn't have been an option for vanilla ? Still, imagine 4-5 barb camps appering suddenly on your borders, with I guess some military units in them too ? Wow

Awesome find btw, @Timberdoodle

 

[pokiehl]

Oof my god... I'd love to play this, but... two things:

1) I don't remember a single instance of my having 2 dark ages in a row.... so.... i feel you'd have to patently make it happen, unless a change was made to the score system
2) Half ? To Barbarian camps ? At least as free cities, you'd be able to regain them, but I guess that came with loyalty and R&F, right, so that wouldn't have been an option for vanilla ? Still, imagine 4-5 barb camps appering suddenly on your borders, with I guess some military units in them too ? Wow

Awesome find btw, @Timberdoodle

It sounds to me like this was conceived of prior to the implementation of free cities. I think having cities rebel as free cities every dark age would be really fun (like I'm the upcoming mode).

 

[Republic of San Montuoso]

Oof my god... I'd love to play this, but... two things:

1) I don't remember a single instance of my having 2 dark ages in a row.... so.... i feel you'd have to patently make it happen, unless a change was made to the score system
2) Half ? To Barbarian camps ? At least as free cities, you'd be able to regain them, but I guess that came with loyalty and R&F, right, so that wouldn't have been an option for vanilla ? Still, imagine 4-5 barb camps appering suddenly on your borders, with I guess some military units in them too ? Wow

Awesome find btw, @Timberdoodle

As you said, two consecutive Dark Ages would be either on purpose or the consequence of very bad management. The punishment for this very bad management are barbarians. Punishment fitting the crime, dare I say.

Now that in the mode you'll lose cities in each Dark Ages, barbarian camps would be too punishing, so free cities is a nice middle ground (seeing that a lot of people are still seeing it too harsh).

 

[acluewithout]

To be fair, I think the current design of Dark Ages in RnF is the better design overall. Risk / reward is a better mechanic than punishment. Sure, Dark Ages could be a touch harder, but overall I think the design is right for the default.

How punishing an alternate game mode Dark Ages should be is a totally different question. I think the auto flip free cities in Dynamic Ages will be plenty challenging. But the negative amenities, negative growth, heaps of barb approach sounds pretty cool too. Might be something for someone to mode. Like an Iron Man Challenge.

It’s interesting how much FXS experiment with mechanics before they settle on a particular approach. We don’t really see that as players. I’m sure FXS spend plenty of time rolling their eyes at certain suggestions thinking “you say you’d like that, but trust me you wouldn’t”.

 

[kaspergm]

Risk / reward is a better mechanic than punishment.

Well yes, but problem is there's almost zero risk in current system. In fact, it's more like reward/reward, which is kind of dull.

 

[UWHabs]

Well yes, but problem is there's almost zero risk in current system. In fact, it's more like reward/reward, which is kind of dull.

Yeah, while the above certainly sounded overly harsh, I can't remember ever having 2 dark ages in a row. Although perhaps I could see a sort of middle ground - for example, say you lost half your empire. It would be kind of neat if that immediately triggered like a "reconquest emergency", so you had, say, 20 turns to bring them all back into your empire. If you do, then it would do something like immediately catapult you into a heroic age. Basically, make things horribly punishing to you, but if you can "survive", then you springboard ahead.

But again, the number of times I have gone dark-dark, it's kind of just a big hypothetical case. I'm definitely interested to dig into the details of this new mode, as it looks like it might be a nice balance. It seems like it will make dark ages actually dark, which I like the idea of. Whether it makes golden ages too good or too easy, I'm not sure, will have to see.

 

[cain3456]

Good Gawd, you people are masochists. There is NOTHING wrong with the current system. NOTHING wrong with Normal Ages. This mode is an absolutely horrid idea & will never be played on my computer.

 

[OmegaDestroyer]

You're absolutely right that nothing is wrong with the current system. But some of us feel that dark ages actually need to be more than a stepping stone to a heroic age.

 

[Andrew Johnson [FXS]]

Good Gawd, you people are masochists. There is NOTHING wrong with the current system. NOTHING wrong with Normal Ages. This mode is an absolutely horrid idea & will never be played on my computer.

Try it out next week. Everyone gets Dark / Golden Ages - the AI, too, not just you. So if you can work it so that your frenemy flips and you stay golden...

I love "frenemy" situations. We have them all the time in real-world politics; why not in Civ?

 

[acluewithout]

I love "frenemy" situations. We have them all the time in real-world politics; why not in Civ?

I do love the various Frenemy mechanics in the game. Get an Alliance with Civ X, then beat them to wonders and great people, forward settle them, send spies, convert their religion, pass resolutions that hurt them.

No one should play Civ to be a “nice” person...

I don’t doubt the changes in Dramatic Ages will be good, and really appreciate your “hands on” feedback / perspective. Tougher Dark Ages and more dynamic Golden Ages are what people have been asking for ( and I think doing that in a game mode is the right approach because some really won’t want that at all or all at least not all the time).

There’s definitely a bit of “suck it and see” with this game mode, given we haven’t had a chance to play it yet. But I really think losing Normal Ages will make ages too binary. And I think losing Dedications entirely really removes a nice bit of flavour from the game.

 

[Leucarum]

I'm not so sold on Dramatic ages yet but we'll see. I wasn't a big fan of Apocalypse mode either and compared to the modes I've enjoyed they don't look like the gameplay decisions they create are ones which I'd enjoy.

Tech shuffle and secret societies have been hits for me because they both create choices and challenges with long term implications to yout game. Secret societies isn't the most balanced thing ever... But I still enjoy it and there are some strategic decisions to be made. And I was surprised how additional governor titles also makes early game much more interesting even if you don't interact with the secret societies content right away. Tech Shuffle - I really enjoy how much emphasis it puts on getting Eurekas to work out how you need to beeline. Both do a good job of making games feel distincy.

On the other hand apocalypse is very RNG heavy with not much long-term control. And Dramatic ages sounds like it's more of a risk-reward thing. Can you risk the dark age just to get the cards you want? It could be good but I'm leaning on the 'probably not for me' side of the fence... On the other hand I have an MP friend who loves apocalypse so I will likely end up playing with it relatively often.

 

[OmegaDestroyer]

After missing a golden age by a lone point for the umpteenth time, I'm looking forward to dramatic ages. Normal ages are just awful.