D'tesh versus the Inferals/Mercurians/Luchiurp/Scions: A massacare

[KillerClowns]

What do all the civs listed in the above post have in common, you ask? Their footsoldiers are all completely immune (or, in the Mercurian case, resistant) to Death damage, making the D'teshi melee line, and actually most of their special units, pushovers, worse than Weak version of their normal counterparts. Is it possible to give the Legion of D'tesh a special version of Death affinity that provides, say, 0.5 Death and 0.5 physical damage per death mana instead? Granted, the D'teshi can use their other units, but those consist of the already overpowered recon line, due for a nerfing from what I hear, cavalry, which seems the best bet, and their archers.
The effect a Scion Paladin would have on the Legion of D'tesh is quite messy to envision...

 

[Valkrionn]

Hmm... I could see that. Unfortunately, not possible to do currently. If Xienwolf revamps the affinity system, or if I attempt to do so (Most likely beyond me, but there's a good example in the city effect tags) then I can do that. It's actually planned.

That said.... The Scions and Luchuirp should be taken out as soon as you find them, or put on farm status. Get them early enough and they won't be a threat.

 

[odalrick]

I like that D'Tesh are vulnerable to unliving things, but it is pretty ridiculous. It's not even just Luichirup, Scions Infernal and Mercurians. Most summons are immune to death damage, Shearim get demons by the bucketful and there are a few other ways to pick up death immune units. You only need a few.

If only there was a reason to give them +.5 affinity for a few other manas, then the problem would go away in a puff of strategic choice.

Maybe +.2 affinity for Infused Ash?

Edit:

Possibly:
+.75 affinity for Body mana; better quality corpses.
+.5 affinity for Ice mana; the cold touch of death.
+.5 affinity for Enchantment; magically strengthened corpses.

 

[Valkrionn]

That's a big part of what I'd like to do... I may have a workaround for now.

 

[deadliver]

If you play d'tesh and encounter the above mentioned civs, maybe you should have made units to counter them. Of course the AI may not be able to do the same.

edit: this could be a balancing thing.

 

[Valkrionn]

The issue is that the vast majority of D'teshi units use death damage. Rather hard to counter them atm.... I can understand them being weak to it, but it's a bit much atm.

 

[deadliver]

The issue is that the vast majority of D'teshi units use death damage. Rather hard to counter them atm.... I can understand them being weak to it, but it's a bit much atm.

Oh please, with d'tesh's super secret cheesy recon units the map should be available to the player. Of course if they play an island map...what is the point.

This is a strategy issue, not a balance issue. With that starting fire mana, players should get at least one other fire mana to hedge their bets. Of course I cry for the AI, but no one else did in their posts.

 

[odalrick]

Oh please, with d'tesh's super secret cheesy recon units the map should be available to the player.

That's sort of the point. Melee and other affinity units are worthless against several civilisations and several units that are easily acquired by the other civs.

Meanwhile recon are overpowered with their complete invisibility and so on.

Consequently there is no reason to ever build the affinity units.

This is a strategy issue, not a balance issue. With that starting fire mana, players should get at least one other fire mana to hedge their bets. Of course I cry for the AI, but no one else did in their posts.

I've no idea why two fire mana would change anything...

Fireballs possibly, but that's equally available with one mana, and anyway doesn't do anything for the Wretched.

 

[deadliver]

That's sort of the point. Melee and other affinity units are worthless against several civilisations and several units that are easily acquired by the other civs.

Meanwhile recon are overpowered with their complete invisibility and so on.

Consequently there is no reason to ever build the affinity units.



I've no idea why two fire mana would change anything...

Fireballs possibly, but that's equally available with one mana, and anyway doesn't do anything for the Wretched.

Okay, with the recon units you get with d'tesh you should be able to seek out everyone who is around you on the same landmass. Plan accordingly. Fireballs, fire elementals, work wonders. Sure the Scions may be on another continent, didn't you scout out the world with boats ahead of time?

D'tesh is weak AI wise not player wise. You may have a lot of melee units but as was mentioned elsewhere in FFPlus forum D'tesh's real killers are the casters who can do a lot more than just summon undead. Also don't your archer units still damage enemy dead? I've not had a problem in my d'tesh games.

 

[Moosh]

I've no idea why two fire mana would change anything...

Fireballs possibly, but that's equally available with one mana, and anyway doesn't do anything for the Wretched.

Two fire mana means your Adepts get the Fire I promotion for free. Three fire mana means your Chosen of D'Tesh get Fire II (and thus fireball) for free. Means you can spend your experience on other promotions.

-Moosh

 

[odalrick]

I've no idea why two fire mana would change anything...

Fireballs possibly, but that's equally available with one mana, and anyway doesn't do anything for the Wretched.

Two fire mana means your Adepts get the Fire I promotion for free. Three fire mana means your Chosen of D'Tesh get Fire II (and thus fireball) for free. Means you can spend your experience on other promotions.

-Moosh

One or two extra promotions for another unittype won't change anything for the Wretched. It was in response to the suggestion that an extra fire mana would solve the issues presented by a stack of golems.

D'tesh is weak AI wise not player wise.

The issue is not about weakness as a civ. It's that the weakness of the Wretched that is so great that removing them altogether would not affect D'Tesh at all. Which is a shame, since they are so flavourful.

 

[Opera]

Hmm... I could see that. Unfortunately, not possible to do currently. If Xienwolf revamps the affinity system, or if I attempt to do so (Most likely beyond me, but there's a good example in the city effect tags) then I can do that. It's actually planned.

You mean changing affinities to use floats instead of ints?

 

[Valkrionn]

That's part of it. I'd also try to adapt tge cityaffect tags, so you could have strength, ranged, movement affinities.

 

[deadliver]

Yes Odalrick but a human player can deal with a stack of golems better than the AI because humans adapt better. You better believe if I wanted to kill these guys I'd change my tactics and rely on my casters more. The problem is, no matter how much I scream at you, I don't have any solid ideas about changing the core wretched units beyond tactics you could try to stop those golems. Maybe quantity over quality? But countering a stack o doom with two or three stacks o doom seems silly.