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Dune scenario ideas

Discussion in 'Civ2 - Scenario Creation' started by allan, Mar 9, 2002.

  1. allan

    allan Cabrón

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    I've just played the Dune scenario that is listed in CFC's listed scenarios (it's an older scenario), and while it was okay it didn't follow the book at all.

    So I have been thinking of a possible Dune scenario that follows the story of the book to some extent. Here are some brainstorming ideas so far:

    TRIBES:

    Muad'Dib Fremen: Capital Seitch Tabr, Fundamentalist, leader Paul Muad'Dib Atreides (also a unit), start with a few seitches (cities), rather low tech, but some good science wonders based on the Kwisatz Haderach visions (SETI program) and Liet Kynes' Planetology experiments (Copernicus'), the Palmaries (Pyramids), and Desert Power (Great Wall, significant in effectiveness against powerful "barbarian" (natural elements) units (described below)-- No negotiations allowed with Fremen however, so they cannot "force" peace).

    Harkonnens: Capital Carthag, leader Beast Rabban (also a unit, along with Feyd Rautha), Dictatorship (equivalent to Monarchy), so high corruption, but higher tech start and lots of NON units to start (to compensate for lower unit support than Fremen). Have some good happiness wonders (actually "tranquilizing" wonders based on Harkonnen brutality) and industrial wonders, start with much more gold, and allied to the Imperial Garrison (below).

    Imperial Garrison: Capital Arrakeen (its only city, but powerful with the Spice Mandate wonder (Colossus), that garden containing trees from all over the empire (have to dig up the book, which I will, to find out if it had a name) (Shakespeare's Theatre), and legions of powerful Sardaukar. Allied with the Harkonnens, but neutral to the Fremen (until attacked, which the Fremen must eventually do). Highest tech level, and Imperial government (Communism). Leader Shaddam IV (also a unit).

    Neutral Fremen: Not meant to be played, collectively they are various seitches without a capital, with low gold and despotic, so they are easy to bribe. They are intended for the Muad'Dib fremen to "bribe" into their camp with the telling of the story of Muad'Dib. They are at war with the Harkonnens however (patrols who find their people wandering around often attack or play sadistic games with them). Very low tech.

    The Guild: VERY minor player, not intended to be played, may or may not keep them, but have Transport Monopoly (UN), and will regularly demand the "spice tribute" from the Fremen--without that tribute they will declare war and give the Harkonnens powerful air units (only Guild Tech can build them) that can wipe out the Fremen seitches (equivalent effect of what they threatened in the book, to launch spy satellites that would expose the extent of the Fremen presence on the planet). Otherwise at peace with everyone, in a small remote location near the south pole. Government probably "Guild" (Democracy), but not sure if that will interfere with the tribute-demanding events....

    Smugglers: Another minor player, not intended to be played, good only really for trade caravan destinations and an intermediate source of tech trades for the Fremen (they are between the Fremen and the Harkonnens in military tech, but lower than the Fremen in infrastructure (city-building) tech). It is amonst the smugglers where long lost Duncan Idaho, a valuable friend and retainer of House Atreides, will be found by Muad'Dib as well, after his escape from the Harkonnen trap. At peace with neutral relations to the Fremen, no contact with anyone else (except maybe the Guild, since they are also in the South polar region), Outlaw government (Despotism) but their many established trade routes with good cities make them good caravan drops. Occupy a few outposts (cities) in the South Polar region.

    Shai-Hulud ("barbarians"): not actual sentient units, but units representing the harsh natural elements of the planet (which the fremen, I believe, collectively deified as "shai-hulud", represented chiefly by the sandworm). Their two units are both "seaborne" ("sea" squares="deep desert" terrain in the game): the Sandworm (powerful attack and defense), and the Coriolis Storm (powerful attack, defense as indestructable as possible, can attack air units). Fremen have better ability defending against these elements due to the Desert Power (Great Wall) wonder, but they constantly confound Harkonnen efforts to penetrate the deep desert with their ornithopter patrols and spice harvesters (a form of "seaborne" settler).

    BACKGROUND:

    The virtuous House Atreides, recently granted the spice mandate and feif of Arrakis (Dune), was set up and betrayed by the exiting treacherous Harkonnens, with Imperial collusion highly suspect. Duke Leto was murdered, the Atreides capital of Arrakeen was sacked by Harkonnen warships and troops, and Leto's son and heir Paul Atreides barely managed to flee with his mother, the Bene Gesserit Lady Jessica, into the harsh and unknown desert world of the Fremen. After their ornithopter was wrecked in one of the planet's fierce coriolis storms, the two managed to find refuge at Seitch Tabr, the seitch of the great leader Stilgar, occupying one of the rocky islands in the great sea of desert south of the Shield Wall.

    Recently there had been murmurings among the Zensunni Fremen of the coming of the long-prophesied "Muad'Dib" messiah from off-world, who would liberate them from their centuries of oppression and hardship, and some Fremen working in the city of Arrakis related to their people that the young Paul, who seemed by instinct to know the ways of the desert and her people, was probably Him according to prophesied signs. The people of Seitch Tabr, like people of all seitches of the desert, were nonetheless skeptical of ALL strange non-Fremen coming upon their doorstep, and they challenged and tested the young man whilst deciding whether or not his fate would be death and the sharing of his body's water. But soon Paul showed convincing signs of being the Muad'Dib, including adapting the "seitch name" Muad'Dib (meaning "desert mouse") without knowledge of these secret prophesies. And when he transformed the "water of life" (something only female Reverend Mothers, the seitch holy women descended from early Bene Gesserit missionaries, could do up until then), and saw the visions of the future as the Bene Gesserit Kwisatz Hadderach, Paul Muad'Dib's messiahhood was complete, and the Fremen tasted hopes of prophesied liberation....

    Paul was still the Duke of House Atreides, however, and was sworn to avenge the treachery against his father and house. The Harkonnen whip was firmly weilded on Arrakis again, with the hated Beast Rabban squeezing even more spice and gold from the planet than ever before for his greedy overlord Baron Vladimir. The Emperor relocated his capital from the planet Kaitain to the former Atreides capital of Arrakeen to directly secure and supervise the vital Spice operations, and was no doubt pressuring the brutal but blundering Rabban to produce more spice OR ELSE.

    As Paul Muad'Dib Atreides, Messiah of the Muad'Dib Fremen, it is your job to expand your initially small base in the desert by spreading word of your Jihad to the many Neutral Fremen seitches ("bribing" them), to raise a new army with Bene Gesserit training, to eventually breach the formidable Shield Wall, capture Carthag, recapture Arrakeen, and force a reckoning with those behind the perfidy you must avenge. Once both Arrakeen and Carthag are captured, with Rabban and Feyd Rautha destroyed and Shaddam IV forced into exile, you will have the tools to "build" your Imperial Jihad (spaceship) to conquer and build a new interplanetary empire!

    As Beast Rabban, Governor of the Harkonnens, it is your job to SQUEEZE MORE SPICE! Periodically a fixed but steadily increasing amount of spice (gold) is deducted from your treasury automatically and given to the Imperial Garrison AND the Guild, so to keep your treasury (initially high, but it won't be for long unless you do your job well) out of the red, you must wrest more and more spice from the harsh and forbidding sandy seas of Arrakis. Send your harvesters out into the desert to temporarily "settle" and mine the surrounding spice, although Shai-Hulud (those bloody sandworms and coriolis storms!) will surely claim these in time (so keep building more!), and it seems those filthy little Fremen are getting a bit braver these days too.... Maybe you should crack down on them too, if your patrols can find all of them. The further things are away from the capital of Carthag, though, the more corrupt your people get, so build Elite Secret Police in your outlying areas to (somewhat) combat this!

    As Shaddam IV, Emperor of A Million Worlds and Commander in Chief of the Imperial Garrison on Arrakis, you at least want to keep your capital very secure from your shifty allies the Harkonnens. You have made your bed with them, but they are probably more treacherous than you are, even though you wrote the book on treachery.... Rabban is an idiot, albeit he is an effectively brutal overseer, but his boss on Geidi Prime, that Baron Vladimir Harkonnen... and Feyd Rautha, his young prodigy of a nephew, who some think has some of those Bene Gesserit weirding powers about him.... As long as they keep giving you the spice your Empire needs, and the Guild navigators the spice they need to pilot the only form of transport between your empire's worlds, all is well. The Fremen were little more than rabble of the desert when you relocated here, but very curiously they seem to be growing stronger--and bolder. Are they still just a Harkonnen excuse for lagging spice production, or is something more happening here? Is this "Muad'Dib" that the blue-eyed ones in the street murmur about, for real? Perhaps you need to step in further, cancel your royal mandate (alliance) with and take out the increasingly incompetent Harkonnens, and secure the desert itself from these Fremen before they get to be too much trouble.... Your Sardaukar are the best ground troops there are--so far as you know anyway. Keep building these, and training them with the best weaponry your imperial researchers can devise (the Ix Engineering wonder is Leo's Workshop).... (NOTE: The Imperial Garrison is really not meant to be played, although they are vitally significant to the game, especially if you are playing the Muad'Dib Fremen (most recommended). But if you do play them, interesting things may happen....)

    Other "tribes" (factions) in the game are not meant to be played, but are significant for various reasons to the game.

    WONDERS:

    The Spice Mandate of Arrakeen (Imperial Garrison) (Colossus)

    The Palmaries of South Desert (Muad'Dib Fremen) (Pyramids)

    Desert Power of Seitch Tabr (Muad'Dib Fremen) (Great Wall)

    Worm Summoning of Seitch Tabr, or maybe another Seitch (Muad'Dib Fremen) (Lighthouse, meaning veteran sandworm-mounted units, which only Fremen, neutral or under Muad'Dib, can build anyway)

    Knowledge of the Desert of Seitch Tabr, or maybe another Seitch (Muad'Dib Fremen) (Marco Polo's Embassy) (Fremen lived in Harkonnen and Imperial-controlled areas too, so knowledge of what went on there was surely passed back to their brothers in the desert)

    Water of Life Transformation Ceremony of Seitch Tabr, or maybe another Seitch (Muad'Dib Fremen) (Oracle, doubles effects of Places of Reverence)

    Secret Garden of Liet Kynes of Seitch (?) (Muad'Dib Fremen) (Hanging Gardens)

    Harkonnen Industrial Might of Carthag (Harkonnens) (King Richard's Crusade)

    Harkonnen Enslavement of Carthag (Harkonnens) (Adam Smith's)

    Twisted Mentat Pitr DeVries of Carthag (Harkonnens)(Michelangelo's Chapel, Dungeon ("happiness" enforced through fear) in every city) (note: only Harkonnens, Imperial Garrison, Smugglers, and the Guild can build dungeons--they are not in Fremen tech lines)

    Liet Kynes' Planetology Experiments of Seitch (?) (Muad'Dib Fremen) (Copernicus' Observatory) (additional note on the planetology theme: "planetologists" (engineers) can only be built by Fremen, under the secret training of the Planetologist/Prophet Liet Kynes and his successors--they can transform "dune" terrain into "fixed dune" terrain which can support plant life for additional food for seitches. Of course, they can also found settlements, but being "sea-borne" (desert-borne) such settlements as they could found would not be as well defensible as settlements in rocks (seitches). There are basic settler units for settling unoccupied rocky areas.)

    Guild Navigator Prescience of Guild Outpost (Guild) (Isaac Newton's Observatory)

    Garden of the Botany of the Imperium of Arrakeen (or whatever name this might have--the garden in the Atreides' former palace there, rich in water) (Imperial Garrison) (Shakespeare's Theatre)

    Ix Engineering of Arakeen (Imperial Garrison) (Leonardo's Workshop--reflects the Imperial possession of the planet Ix, a planet of technological wonders seen nowhere else in the empire. Due to the almost unlimited imperial wealth, all the latest technology in weapons would automatically be fitted to sardaukar and other units as developed, as the emperor would spare no expense for his security.)

    Slave Pit Training of Carthag (Harkonnens) (Sun Tzu's War Academy--some of the most hardened Harkonnen troops came from the slave pits, and fought gladiatorial contests to the death with other slaves to rise to elite ranks among combatants. Add to that their fierce loyalty once given positions in the military--actually fear of displeasing their superiors and ending up back in the slave pits or worse--and you have a good recipe for veteran-style troops that are surpassed only by the Imperial Sardaukar, that is until some of that Bene Gesserit training of Fremen warriors (developing degrees of tech among the Fremen) starts kicking in....)

    Slave "Motivation" Techniques of Carthag (Harkonnens) (Hoover Dam--if there's ONE thing the Harkonnens had, it was industrial power. On the backs of their slaves from Geidi Prime and elsewhere, that is....)

    Black Market Profits of (?) (Smugglers) (JS Bach's Cathedral--reflects the happiness of access to all manner of outside goods through their illicit trade channels--something for everyone, and high profits to be had! Given their outlaw (despotism) government, SOMETHING has to keep their cities from falling into chaos!)

    Kwisatz Haderach Visions of Seitch Tabr (Muad'Dib Fremen) (SETI Program)

    (cont. next post)
     
  2. Rhodry

    Rhodry Perennially Pissed

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    Gurney Halleck
     
  3. Prometeus

    Prometeus Prince

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    I created a Dune scen once.. Must have some cities.gif and icons.gif floating around on my PC... :):egypt:
     
  4. allan

    allan Cabrón

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    Was going to post part 2 of my scenario outline yesterday, but the forum went down :(. Anyway, continuing with WONDERS:

    Guild Transport Monopoly of Guild Outpost (Guild) (UN--reflects the Guild's real power as the only ones able to pilot Heighliners, the transport ships capable of interstellar travel through foldspace. No one really wants to pick a fight with them since they have such control of everything that goes around the empire. Also, being of the "Guild" government type (Democracy), they may need UN-style authority if someone DOES pick a fight with them--in which case they have the most powerful air units of the game, but of course they also have that meddling "senate"! (well, whatever--can't get rid of that aspect of the democracy government anyway))

    Other normal wonders of CivII, without their equivalent listed above, do not appear ever in the game, except the Jihad wonder (Apollo Program) which is buildable by the Muad'Dib Fremen only after they achieve certain key military objectives late in the game--it will allow them to "build" the Imperial Jihad, for a "spaceship" victory. I'm thinking of whether or not to also have a Manhattan Project equivalent for nuke-type weapons, although use of "atomics" has been prohibited by mutual treaty throughout the houses of the empire (I forget what this convention was called) for centuries.... But supposedly atomics were used to fell the great Shield Wall fortifications in the novel itself, so.... Any thoughts or ideas on this?

    UNITS:

    This is still embryonic, and I'd love to hear input on ideas for these. But basically, so far, I've thought of these general types:

    Sardaukar--Imperial Elite troops, the best defensive ground unit of the game at the beginning. With tech advances, they are fitted (through Leo's) with more advanced weaponry, increasing their attack, defense, and firepower factors.

    Harkonnen Troops--Good ground infantry, fairly good defense but higher offense. Techs also provide weaponry upgrades, but since Harkonnens don't have Leo's, they're not automatic.

    Crysknife Warriors--Basic Fremen infantry at start--good defense (especially with the *2 multiplier of seitch rock terrain), but not so good offense.

    Muad'Dib Warriors--"fundamentalist only" warriors (like fanatics), with increased offense and defense from their simple Crysknife predecessors. Various "Bene Gesserit training" tech upgrades increase their close combat effectiveness by degrees. The highest grades will eventually be comparable to high grade Sardaukar, with higher numbers produceable to boot....

    Summoned Sandworms--these are Fremen-only transports across the "seas" of desert. High defense and fast mobility.

    Sandworm-Mounted War Parties--Fremen-only "warships", they are sandworms mounted by special cavalry warriors who can fight while mounted, plus artillery pieces are lashed to the worms as well. I don't think such things were in the novel though--this is my invention.... High defense, higher offense, but less mobility range than the Sandworm transports, due to the worm "tiring" sooner from the extra weight put on it.

    Ornithopters--Harkonnen, Imperial, and Smuggler only. Helicopter-equivalent units, with high attack but low defense (Coriolis storms tear them up like nothing too). Used for patrols into the desert mainly, and some protection for spice harvesting operations (see below) in that they can take out a "barbarian" sandworm or Fremen sandworm unit about 50% of the time with their lasguns.

    Spice Harvesters--Harkonnen-only "settler"-type units, they are "sea" (desert) units that "settle" Spice Harvesting Operations near special "Spice Blow" terrain (like whales). As soon as a "city" of this type is built, the spice in the nearby squares can be added to the treasury. However, since the only desert-borne Harkonnen unit is the ornithopter, there isn't much in the way of defense for these operations (this is as it was in the novel too) other than keeping ornithopters on the lookout for nearby sandworms and killing them before they can attack YOU. You can also keep an Armored Transport (see below) in the "city" for some defense. There is no defense against coriolis storms which occasionally come your way either. But "Spice blow" terrain provides a LOT of trade arrows (="spice", the equivalent of gold in this game), so wresting these arrows for even a few turns will help your treasury.

    (Question for experienced scenario creators: Are "sea" domained settlers, and cities in sea squares, possible? I wanted to make the desert "sea" squares mainly because it was virtually intraversible by ground units that would normally operate within the "civilized" areas within the Shield Wall around the North polar region. Danger of worms and storms, extremely difficult footing, and disorientation would make traversing the desert on foot or in vehicles--with the exception of Fremen "sandwalker warriors" who know the secrets of avoiding rhythmic walking that attracts worms, and would function in this game as low-powered submarines--unthinkable by those civs unsophisticated in the ways of the desert. So an exclusive "sea" property of deep desert south of the Shield Wall seemed appropriate.)

    Sandwalker Warriors--Fremen only. Representing the only non-mounted Fremen unit that can traverse the desert. They have submarine qualities because they know how to stay hidden amongst the sands, avoiding both "barbarian" sandworms (through their special irrythmic walking patterns) and the two-visibility of enemy ornithopters (through staying hidden beneath the sands by day). They on the other hand have a visibility of two and can spot ornithopter patrols, so they make good scouts. (Question: Anyone know how to make a "submarine" type unit able to attack a helicopter-type unit? Or can I only use these to scout and take out armored transports (see below) in groups?) They have good attack value but low firepower and defense, good for surprise raids more than anything.... Perhaps as "subs" they can also carry "missile"-type units that can shoot down air units (is THIS possible?), or have with them missile-equivalent saboteur-raiders that can do damage on "land" (within shield wall)....

    Guild Supersonic Air Units--The Guild trump card in case anyone messes with them. Having (initially, anyway) one city and being a democracy with a rational perfectionist leader, they can't build too many of these (and they cause unhappiness in democracies), but they are POWERFUL. Have maximum range (I believe 40 is max possible in the unit editor), and are like stealth fighters (multiple hits possible) with HUGE attack factors and firepower--can take out basically anything it wants to.

    (Question: can fighter units be made to cause unhappiness? I don't want an AI Guild building too damn many of these things and unbalancing the game, since I think AI democracies can still attack and start wars apparently. Or maybe an event (Guild attacked?) can give them the tech to build them or else make them appear. If the Muad'Dib Fremen renege on their regular spice tribute (as in the novel), they can also build them and give them to the Harkonnens or Imperials--so the Fremen are advised NOT to renege until they meet all their military objectives and gain similar tech at that point.)

    Planetologists--Fremen only engineers, can transform dune squares into fixed-dune (more food). Question--is more than one sea terrain type possible? Or if fixed-dune would be considered "land" (logical since worms couldn't traverse it that well), would my planetologist be stranded there one he transformed it, since he is now on "land" rather than in his "sea" domain?

    Various armored and artillery units--initially Harkonnen and Imperial only, used mainly within the shield wall but can be transported on Armored Transports through the desert (see below). Any ideas of specific unit types here? Eventually Fremen will develop equivalents as well when they get enough tech (they will not be ready to attack within the Shield Wall until they develop these units either, because the shield wall fortifications are formidable with *3 defense multipliers, and the "Worm line" comes before the Shield wall meaning sandworm-mounteds cannot directly bombard the wall either).

    Armored Transports--Harkonnen and Imperial only. High defense, no offense, and slower than sandworms. Only means of transporting harvester units, infantry, and other ground units across the desert for non-Fremen. 50% chance of being defeated by attacking sandworms ("barbarian" or Fremen). Fremen sandwalker warriors only have a chance of taking these out in numbers--one or two units won't succeed. Coriolis storms will destroy them. Only effective defensive unit that can be placed in a Spice Harvesting Operation. Relatively expensive to build, so escort them with ornithopter patrols and keep them away from danger (especially when loaded)!

    This is what I have for now. I'll get to improvements and techs in a bit. Of course, I'm open to any suggestions and advice. I LOVE the whole Dune series and timeline--it is probably the best science fiction I have ever read--and I want to make a civ scenario true to the situation in the novel! Thanks!

    --Allan
     
  5. allan

    allan Cabrón

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    Oops! Duplicate post.

    Anyway, anyone see any possible technical problems with what I've laid out (this will be my first serious attempt at a scenario), let me know. Along with, of course, any other suggestions, unit ideas, etc. Thanks again!
     
  6. kobayashi

    kobayashi Deity

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    Personally I think an off-planet scenario would be more practical. All the major races would play a meaningful role. In such a case, Arrakis would have to be a just a planet(city) with plenty of wonders that everyone wants. But then again, the choice of other wonders for the rest of the planets would be much better.

    You would have to read all the sequels and prequels to do this properly and the tribes would be

    Atreides
    Harkonnen
    Imperial
    Spacing Guild
    Bene Gesserit
    2 other less important houses (like the snake logo guys).
     
  7. allan

    allan Cabrón

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    Yeah, that's an idea for ANOTHER scenario--the offworld stuff.

    But the story of the first novel "Dune" itself is what I find intriguing--the fallen Paul Atreides coming amongst the downtrodden Fremen, and they together building "Desert Power" that would eventually lead to their takeover of Dune, the most important planet of the Imperium due to it being the exclusive source of Spice Melange (Tleilaxu efforts to develop a synthetic so far failing).

    The drama on this planet itself is legendary.... And this unique world provides intriguing challenges.

    I know you like space-based stuff, kobayashi, and I LOVE your Star Trek scenarios :goodjob: ! Problems with a space-based scenario of the Dune Imperium though: the Guild control the heighliners, which transport warships of other factions (houses) throughout the Imperium. How could this relationship be represented in a CivII-parametered game? Not only that if you attack the Guild, transport for you is shut down (which it definitely would be in the Dune universe); but also I don't think there is any way for units of different tribes to occupy the same space in CivII. Of course, if I decide to do some sort of space-based scenario in the future (maybe the Muad'Dib Jihad (what happened between Dune and Dune Messiah, not directly written about which is kind of a shame in a way), since they essentially controlled the Guild at that point--there would thus be no "guild" tribe), maybe there are good ways of ironing these things out.

    But I like the story of Dune itself--the classic comeback-of-the-underdog story, plus the challenges of taming a harsh and forbidding world (the whole planetology thing). I want to start with an on-planet scenario anyway. The fact that the Guild withheld satellites from being used to surveil the land (due to Fremen spice bribes) made conventional, land-based power and combat more a factor than it otherwise would have been, too.
     
  8. Rhodry

    Rhodry Perennially Pissed

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    Hmm...I think a lot of the stuff you propose, can't work..I don't think you can settle sea squares(someone correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not exactly much of a scenariomaker, just a player)..I'm not sure you can have sea-based engineers either, and you can't change sea to land with them...

    I've an idea...have a barb unit named "spice" which pops up randomly all over the map, and the harks have to kill them...the only thing that can kill them is spice harvester....though working that out might be annoying

    I think many of your ideas are either impossible or require heavy heavy scripting :( sorry dood..but there are alternatives...just don't ask me, ask someone who knows this stuff.
     
  9. Gaius

    Gaius Chieftain

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    Well, You can change terrain into water and back, but I think
    some guide that was written by Kobayashi(?) cleared that piece out. However, You cannot force AI to understand mixed flags.
    You cannot use sea-towns normally, though.

    Few thoughts:

    Atreides will have many very little villages, right? And they must have around 3 improv. 1-cost to keep civ normal...So give them the Adam&Smith in beginning, and when war starts with Guild, give to Guild a new tech, which makes Adam obsolete...blockade all right. And create couple really bad interceptors which will make headache:)

    Local trade however should be quite nonsense, so make economy dependable of spice-caravans -- rename all good trade-stuff to spice (look at help section about the trade).
    However fremen did have some wormfarms, but dont make them in masse! some resource maybe.


    Creating Spice every turn, is quite odd, 'cause one can set his units near every place, where spice will turn out, right? Make these spice-things almost forever flying(big range) and very floating -- move~8-10. Attack 0, defence quite big, avoid bribe!!!
    Then make these spice collectors at partisan slot, which makes them perfect collectors, due to bonus:) To simulate "bringing" spice back to base make them helicopters!, so they can "fly" at deep desert, but must return after a while to base! Of cource give money for killing spice:)
    Problem will be when spice finds a barb city(other fremen), it
    will make city takeble only with collectors:). And bribing city
    will give player spice units! You have to consider house rule or stng.

    Rename Elvis into Spice-Addicts:), they did foresee right?

    Due to Fund. Atreides temples give them gold, make sure he wont build to many of temples (high prod or something)

    Give VERY long time to irrigate:) or change terrain.

    Harkonnen had some obsolete cannons in the beginning if I remember correctly:)

    More coming up...
     
  10. allan

    allan Cabrón

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    "Creating Spice every turn, is quite odd, 'cause one can set his units near every place, where spice will turn out, right? Make these spice-things almost forever flying(big range) and very floating -- move~8-10. Attack 0, defence quite big, avoid bribe!!!
    Then make these spice collectors at partisan slot, which makes them perfect collectors, due to bonus To simulate "bringing" spice back to base make them helicopters!, so they can "fly" at deep desert, but must return after a while to base! Of cource give money for killing spice"

    Interesting idea--having them be a barb unit. They would have to be a barb leader though to render money, and the AI tends to stack barb leaders with other units so you end up killing them for no money more often than not.... But the "moving" spice is more accurate, since spice is found in different areas all the time, after a "spice blow" (and this does involve sandworms somehow--I forget the relationship exactly but it was revealed in one of the Dune books--it was unknown to outsiders though). I'll have to think about this one, especially if sea-settlements are a no-go.

    "Problem will be when spice finds a barb city(other fremen), it
    will make city takeble only with collectors. And bribing city
    will give player spice units! You have to consider house rule or stng."

    Actually, in my outline, the "other Fremen" were a separate tribe (Neutral Fremen). Their bribe price would be low for the Muad'Dib Fremen due to their despotism (called "Outlaw" in the game, same government as the Smugglers) government, low treasury, and lack of a capital.

    The "Barbarians" are the natural elements of Dune, namely the sandworms (not the summoned sandworms of the fremen, but other sandworms), and those fierce coriolis storms that come out of nowhere. Only problem with the coriolis storms being units is them being subject to bribery--and who can bribe a storm? Well, maybe this Muad'Dib can, but.... Any way to prevent bribery of barb units?

    "Rename Elvis into Spice-Addicts, they did foresee right?"

    Interesting idea--"scientists" are mentats, and tax collectors can still be tax collectors (but they look more brutal or something)....

    "Due to Fund. Atreides temples give them gold, make sure he wont build to many of temples (high prod or something)"

    Which is why the Muad'Dib Fremen (Atreides) can't build dungeons (cathedrals). Not only are they out of character for the virtuous house (while Harkonnens use them to scare the people into contentment--they have Pitr DeVries (Michelangelo's) which puts one in every city too), but also I figured that cathedral-type improvements WOULD give the Muad'Dib Fremen too much gold, especially once they started getting big.... But the Fremen DID have "money" (spice), more than most outsiders knew too. After all, they paid the Guild a hefty spice bribe regularly to keep them from building the normal surveillance satellites around Arrakis. Spice, after all, was their regular diet, a staple in their food and drink. The Muad'Dib Fremen START with low wealth and only, maybe, 3 sietches (cities), but as they bribe and assimilate their fellow Fremen (the Neutral Fremen), and settle more seitches, their wealth will grow....

    "Give VERY long time to irrigate or change terrain."

    Certainly--the greening of Dune took centuries. I propose two steps: dune (deep desert)-->fixed dune-->grassland. (Or maybe, the grassland step won't be available at all this scenario, but maybe in subsequent scenarios.) "Fixed dune"=plains more or less. Each transformation will take maybe 30 turns or something. The map will be 100x100 squares (the max possible), so actually terraforming the entire planet will not happen in the timespan of this scenario (and planetologists will cost a lot of shields to build too).

    I've been having second thoughts about making the desert "sea" terrain though--especially if settling there would be impossible. Maybe mobility will be 2 (or even 3) instead of one though, to simulate the rigors of crossing by normal land units. Sandworm units (Fremen and barbarian) can have the "alpine" flag on then. But can there be land units that carry other land units (mounted sandworms, or the armored transport I detailed in the outline)?
     
  11. allan

    allan Cabrón

    Joined:
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    So, possible terrain types, if deep desert will be land:

    Deep desert: 1 food, 1 shield, 1 arrow with footpaths, 2 or 3 movement, x1 defense. Specials spice blow (4 food, 1 shield, 6 arrows), little makers (2 food, 3 shield, 1 arrow w/footpaths)

    Fixed dune: 2 food, 1 shield, 1 arrow with footpaths, 2 movement, x1 defense. Specials maybe olives (a hardy arid plant) (3 food, 1 shield, 2 arrows) and date palms (4 food, 1 shield, 3 arrows)

    Arid plains (within Shield Wall)--2 food, 1 shield, 1 arrow with footpaths, 1 movement, x1 defense. Will think of possible specials....

    Seitch rock--3 food (due to catchtraps for water--I think water may actually be what I call "food" in the game, due to how precious it is here), 2 shield, no arrows, 2 movement, x2 defense. Will think of possible specials, probably ores to increase shields....

    Shield Wall--1 food, 3 shield, no arrows, 3 movement, x3 defense.

    Palmaries--2 food, 2 shields, 2 arrows, 1 movement, x1.5 defense.

    Simple irrigation possible only from water sources, so maybe for the Fremen I'll have one irrigated square set up near where Liet Kynes had his secret gardens.... Irrigation within the shield wall will be possible from the small reservoir near the north pole.

    Another problem, though, with considering the deep desert "land"--the sandworms could only travel up to a certain latitude, called the "worm line", before the moisture in the soil became too much and would be fatal to them. So it was unrealistic for them to be able to attack near or within the Shield Wall. Thus I think the deep desert must remain a seperate domain.... Problematic though.... :confused:
     
  12. allan

    allan Cabrón

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    I think I may have found a solution to the problem of worms going up into the shield wall, if the desert is to be a "land" terrain: "cliff face" terrain on the outside of the shield wall proper, which would be "sea" terrain which no land units could go into. There would be two or three points where this terrain breaks, and these would be Harkonnen strongpoints.

    Or maybe one break only, a key strongpoint, beyond which there is a "city" in the shield wall itself. Conquest of this Harkonnen city by the Muad'Dib Fremen would trigger a terrain-change event that will bring a large section of the Shield Wall down ("Muad'Dib Fremen seize Harkonnen atomics stockpiles in Shield Wall Fortress, and detonate them to open the Shield Wall. Carthag is now within reach of our ground forces." Or something like that).

    I watched the Sci-Fi Channel version of the Dune movie recently, and it alluded to the use of atomics to level the Shield Wall, after which the armies of Muad'Dib poured in. I haven't actually read the first Dune book in many years (I've been reading the recently-written prequels by Brian Herbert though), and I'm going to read the old book again before launching on this scenario. I want to capture the flavor of the original novel as best I can, and be as true to the circumstances of the story as closely as the CivII parameters will allow....

    This will be a long and difficult project, but I want to do it RIGHT.

    (On edit: Given the specifically-detailed things the Muad'Dib Fremen must do to win this game, I think I will make this scenario "playable" by the Fremen only--I don't think the AI will "get" what the Fremen need to do like the human player will. What do you all think of that?)

    Preliminary name for scenario: "DUNE: Muad'Dib Rising" (besides "desert mouse", "Muad'Dib" also referred to a figure on one of Arrakis' two moons in the Fremen tongue--so this scenario name seems appropriate.)
     
  13. Rhodry

    Rhodry Perennially Pissed

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    Melbourne
    Oh, the acting in the sci-fi channel miniseries was awful..special effects were ok tho...read the book again, its better, I finished it for like the 5th time the other day
     
  14. Prometeus

    Prometeus Prince

    Joined:
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    Oops, forgot to say it before...

    Since i've a scanner and Frank Herbert's "Dune" book are you interested in a Dune's Planet map?:cool: :egypt:

    PS I've a backup only for icons.gif, sooowy... :(
     
  15. allan2

    allan2 Gone Fishing

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    Well, I read the book again (actually I've gone through most of the series, I'm on Heretics now), and I now don't see that a CivII scenario is really feasible. There are too many things that happen that can't be well simulated in Civ....

    Maybe I'll try later, but for now I've been putzing around with a future American Civil War (post-EMP event, circa, say, 2010) scenario--much easier to cut my teeth on something like that.
     
  16. techumseh

    techumseh Emperor

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    I think it sounds very interesting. And doable too, except for that cities on the water bit. But it sounds a bit ambitious. I suggest you do a simpler version first to try out your concepts.

    I like the first idea of several playable civs. In fact, a multiplayer version might be lots of fun, if you have MGE or ToT. If you use ToT, I'd love to contribute what help I can.

    Either way, here's a suggestion I've had in mind a long time for a Dune scenario - use event created worms, but give them odd/even starting coordinates. This puts them in a "fourth dimension" where they can't be seen, but can block and even attack regular units. And when they move, they create a weird distortion on the map, very much like worms moving under the sand.
     
  17. Prometeus

    Prometeus Prince

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    On my long time deserted dune project, i turned sea into Deep desert and set Big Sandworms under Sea rules ( kinda transport ). I assigned Domestic Sandworms to Fremen to serve as Mechanized infantry. :)
     
  18. ERIKtheRED

    ERIKtheRED Chieftain

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    9
    Very compelling reasons exist for using ocean to represent dunes.

    First, sand dunes are called 'erg' (an Arabic word), and rock plains are called 'bled'

    1. Sandworms can be carrier units, controlled by both Fremen and barbarians, who carry Fremen (air) warriors.

    1.5. Fremen Sandworms can be used to attack foreign spice harvesters .

    2. Fremen soldiers are helicopters, competant on dunes and on rock surfaces.

    3. Heavy units (Harkonnen tanks) can be kept out of dune seas with land unit status.

    4. Enemy infantry can be air units with trireme disadvantage-- causes non fremen to be lost at sea.

    5. Cities, as per the book, should not exist on erg. Cities, and improvements such as windtraps, are present in the novel only on rock plateaus, which would be land. Irrigation should only very rarely appear, and is impossible on dunes. It should be allowed only on land.

    6. As for barbarian spice units, these could be sea units (which will not inappropriately travel onto land). An event would give money to their killers.

    This creates a truly innovative model: Fremen have dominance in the desert, due to their all terrain movement (helicopter), ability to avoid storms (no trireme disadvantage), protection from sandworms, and ability to ride sandworms. Foreign troops risk death when crossing the dunes, from storms (trireme disadvantage) and worms (fremen controlled).
     

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