Dutch Wonder building accomplishments

[ExpiredReign]

I'm playing as Rome on a 'Continents Plus' 'Standard' time at 'King' level and after I placed my spy in Amsterdam I decided to have a look at what he is building.

Its turn 199 already the AI has built the following:

Angkor Wat
Chichen Itza
Churches of Lalibela
Duomo
Great Mosque of Djenne
Himeji Castle
Machu Picchu
Stonehenge
Colossus
Great Library
Great Wall
Hagia Sophia
Hanging Gardens
Oracle
Pyramids

At the start of the next turn I was notified Amsterdam was building the Taj Mahal.
Three turns later it was completed!

Now I haven't been playing at 'King' level very long but this seems very overpowered. Is it really possible to build all those wonders so quickly?

Thanks.

 

[agc28]

This sounds like a bug I often run into, which for some reason causes cities to have astronomical hammer yields. Nobody else has reported the same bug as me though.

Can you mouse over that city (the tile that the city is sitting on) and look at the hammer yield of the city?

Usually city tiles produce 2 hammers, or 3 hammers if its situated on a hill. But for some reason I have played against an Inca capital that produces 250 hammers per turn in medieval era.

 

[ExpiredReign]

Just sent my spy back in to have a look.

It's now turn 208 and Amsterdam's city screen says it is producing 65.7 hammers.
By next turn it will also complete the 'Forbidden Palace'.

The only other buildings that aren't Wonders, or FREE from those Wonders, are:
Mentor's Hall
Monument
City Hall
Palace

The actual city hex looked to provide normal yields.

 

[Eiger2112]

Hi ExpiredReign,

My first thought was that maybe it SEEMed like they built the Taj in 3 turns, but that you learned of it only AFTER your spy was in place, and they had really been working on it for longer?

But if they're then almost done with the Forbidden Palace 5 turns later... that seems to confirm too-speedy construction.

Ok, but let's do the math. If they had 65 Production, over 5 turns, that's 325. Then maybe they have the 20% from the Tradition Social Policy? 325 * 1.2 = 390. I'm not at home now, so have no idea what the Forbidden Palace costs.

But how would we see their advantage from playing King? Would it show in the 65 hammers, or is it subtracted from the required cost? Do any other wonders, policies, or religion bonuses apply? I know at least one religious choice could help with wonders. But in OUR cities, that would all be factored into the 65, but maybe not with a Spy? Is it a small map? I think that also affects things.

Anyway, it could well be a bug, but I just thought we should do the math first.

Cheers, Eiger

 

[mystikx21]

The math essentially would be them building just wonders first off (which looks to be the case). I think it's possible for them to build the FP in 5 turns.

325 sounds about right for FP. I think it would be in either the 350 or 430 tier for wonder costs. The AI gets a 25% discount on wonders on king and above. I don't think that would show in the production factor but rather in reducing the raw cost, which would make it at most 322.

I'm not sure if the 20% from Tradition is factored into spies showing the 65 (it would be on your own cities). I'd imagine it is though.

 

[Eiger2112]

Yah, it is weird that the AI is building just wonders, but is it really a bad thing? If I have a high production city and I research a new tech, I think "Ooh, I don't really NEED that wonder, but if I can pump it out in 5-8 turns, it's better than another unit or building, and then THEY can't get it " So it's usually not a BAD decision.

Sounds like you need to send an expeditionary force out that way...

Cheers, Eiger

 

[ExpiredReign]

Thanks Eiger2112.

I thought that too.

One problem though. William teamed up with Alexander and they both marched in and decimated me.

Seems I'll have to play a few more games at this level to get good at it.

Didn't think the step up from 'Prince' would be that challenging.

 

[Thalassicus]

I think the AI wonder bonus takes effect by subtracting from the cost for the wonder, instead of adding to production. Prince AIs have -15% wonder costs, and King AIs have -25% cost.

 

[Ahriman]

I think the AI wonder bonus takes effect by subtracting from the cost for the wonder, instead of adding to production. Prince AIs have -15% wonder costs, and King AIs have -25% cost.

That would have been a smart way to do it, to avoid it interacting additively to all the other % modifiers, like those for Egypt and Tradition.

 

[ExpiredReign]

So if I'm understanding this correctly what I saw wasn't so much a bug, as more of the AI doing a pretty good job.

Damn those pesky Dutch AIs.

 

[Eiger2112]

Don't feel too bad, ExpiredReign... the AI was doing good, yes, but they also DO have a lot of bonuses. I was just reading about the difficulty levels, the AIs a play like they're on Chieftain, and then get King/Emperor etc bonuses ON TOP of that.

Sounds like your game was just one of those times when the AI that 2K wrote and Thal modified worked beautifully for the situation that they were in. That, and they ganged up on you - neener neener neener

If it wasn't for the occasional game like that, then it wouldn't be so much fun when YOU dominate, and roll your tanks up on Rome while they cower behind their wooden shields. Wassup, Caesar?!

But back to the original thought... did the city ALSO have a normal (but complete for that era) infrastructure to support that production? If so, then I'd say yes, they just built a great city and were rockin the wonders.

Cheers, Eiger

 

[mitsho]

It's certainly not the best strategic choice to only build wonders. How did his military look? I presume that the random number changer upped William's preference for Wonders a bit too high. Or not, if he dominated in other areas as well.

 

[Ahriman]

It's certainly not the best strategic choice to only build wonders. How did his military look?

Very often I find that Egypt goes crazy building wonders, producing maybe only 1 extra city while packing in 4+ early wonders, and then gets wiped out by a neighbor who invested in a military.

I imagine that sometimes William is similar (I presume he has a Tall/builder playstyle).

I'm not sure that this is bad for gameplay though. It is a high risk high reward strategy (if Egypt is isolated it sometimes gets quite powerful by the midgame), and it means that the human player faces competition for Wonders, which helps heighten the wonders vs expansion vs military tradeoffs.

 

[ExpiredReign]

As far as other buildings go, well I think it was pretty normal. I haven't looked at that save game for a while. Its all too painful.

No seriously. His military must have been reasonable since for a long time he and Greece (both my nearest neighbours to the north) were at WAR. Part of the reason I felt secure. Sort of figured they would occupy themselves without bothering me too much. Stupid decision on my part apparently.

About the game levels. On 'Prince' I could just about guarantee a victory no matter what the setup, as any Civ on any map. On 'King' I must of played, so far, only a couple of dozen games but only won on 2 or 3.

I'll keep plugging away until I reach god-like status. Or at least can beat the computer on 'Deity'.