Early build order, first ~40 turns from 4000BC?

Pyrrhos

Vae Victis
Joined
Mar 15, 2007
Messages
712
Usually, you will get two food & two shields net when you settle your capital, so my usual build order is:

Warrior (5 turns)
Worker (5 turns, leaving the capital at pop 1)
Warrior (5 turns)
Warrior (5turns, max no of units not requiring unit support)
Granary (or granary prebuild)
Settler

I've compared with not building the worker (eg warrior > warrior > warrior > granary > settler) and usually end up getting my first settler some 3 - 5 turns earlier. But from there on, things seem to get slower as I've not had the second worker improve the land.

Now to my question - What is the most efficient build order?
 
My opinion - with only 2 excess food, your city is not growing fast enough to need a second early worker. Time a settler to complete on growth to size 3 - hopefully you will have a higher food location for your second town. Build warriors until then - use wealth for 1 turn if necessary to time the settler properly.
 
What I mean is that when you start, you usually don't have an unimproved tile that yields more than two food next to your capital. It is rare for a cow or a wheat to be bang next and if you have one, it is usually not until ten turns have passed and your cultural border expands that one becomes available. Basically, it is only flood plains that yield more than two food, but not until you irrigate them.

What I like to do is the first worker improves the best, instantly workable tile. Then it moves on to the best tile that will become available after ten turns. With two workers, this tile can be rapidly improved and I can keep improved tiles ready as my capital grows, chop woods to hasten the granary and road to the location where my second town will be. Furthermore, by that time, the second town will have improved tiles to work.
 
In that case, you will have to give me more information about exactly what tiles are available. My answer above assumed you had nothing better than BGs. If you have plains cow, plains wheat, flood plains, or grass wines and you have fresh water available, then my answer might change.
 
Generally, if you have a cow 1 tile away from the settler, its worth moving the settler one tile.

You'll get back the lost turn because it grows to size 2 3 turns earlier, or 2 turns earlier if you consider the turn lost to movement, and thats still more than you lost.

In fact, for the purpose of making a settler pump out of your capital, its even worth moving the starting settler 4 steps, assuming you can see a cow 5 tiles away. (you should be able to see it if you move your scout on a hill/mountain the first turn, that is on the 2nd tile from the start, and then see the cow barely under the fog the 3rd tile away from the scout)

Actually, it also depends on map size and number of opponents a bit, and difficulty of course... So those 4 tiles move was a bit of a stretch, but purely looking at expansion, its true.


To answer the OP:
Assuming a 2 sfpt start, and no food bonus on the first border expansion either, I would build 3 warriors right aways, and then a settler, or 3 warriors and then a granary, depending on both the number of possible 2 shield tiles (bonus grass or sugar plains) and how far I can REX (map size/number of opponents/difficulty) But If I can build scouts, I'd build 2 scouts and a warrior. I may also build only 2 units before a settler if there aren't enough shields.

In some situations I would consider joining the starting worker and build a settler on turn 10, planting a second town on turn 12.

The only times I'd build a 2nd worker before I build my second city is if I have 4 or 5 sfpt in my capital. Or maybe in some weird fluke situation I can't think of right now, but as a rule, with only 2 sfpt you just don't need a second worker that early.
 
Although this is probally flawed this is what I do

(focus on food only for quick growth)
1: Warrior
2: Barracks
3: Settler
4: Spearsman (if available)
5: here and beond it all depends on how far along you are in science, normally start shifting focus from food to science and gold
 
I'd only build barracks that early if I plant to do a very early attack. (conquer 2nd city rather than build it) and Then I'd build either archers or warriors, not spear. (though I may build impi's for this purpose) Spears don't have a good att rating, and are more expensive than warriors.
 
It depends on the trait, and the level. At low levels are useful against barbs .. at high level they arent. Given the choice I build archers because they are generally more useful. Spears for defense. If its military trait then a barracks usually goes in my 2nd town.
 
I truly just use the barracks as something to occupy my city with untill it is capable of producing a settler, meaning pop lvl 3
 
It can be useful, the number of times I have been setting up early embassies and seen AI capitals with settlers ready in 1 turn and the city isnt big enough to produce them. The Ai must waste loads of turns doing that.
 
In some situations I would consider joining the starting worker and build a settler on turn 10, planting a second town on turn 12.

Now that's sneaky, I like it! :goodjob:

Worker
Turn 1 - move
Turns 2 to 7 - mine (BG) [don't work this tile yet!]
Turns 8 to 10 - road
Turn 11 - move
Turns 12 to 14 - road tile next to wher new town will be
Turn 15 - back to capital and join

Capital
Turns 1 to 5, 6 to 10 & 11 to 15 - warriors
Grows to pop 2 after turn 10
Has collected 30 shields turn 15
Turn 16 - a shiny new settler bounces forth
Turn 17 - second city founded

Then both towns can build a warrior followed by a worker by turn 26/27 for two pop 1 towns, two workers and five regular warriors. Very neat!
 
I view deffense as way more important early game

Are you playing the Always War variant on monarch or higher?

If not, then those spearman are almost completely useless.

VS barbarians, you get an (not visible in the UI) attack bonus when attacking.
You can build 2 warriors for the price of 1 spear, 2 warriors means 2 attack, means less chance the AI will do an attack of opportunity, and less chance they will demand stuff as tribute. You can attack and kill 2 barbarians on your own turn, giving them no chance to chose a victim at their own accord. (they may just ignore the spear and pillage a tile improvement, so its better to take them out on your own turn.) And 2 warriors means 2 content faces due to MP, instead of just one.

Also, barracks cost 40 shields, thats 4 warriors. and 4 regulars can do more than 1 veteran.

The only thing you'll be using those early units for is MP, and preventing an opportunistic attack from the AI during the REX faze. And busting fog, but more units bust fog better.

Exceptions aside, I usually build my first barracks after building at least a couple of cities.

I truly just use the barracks as something to occupy my city with untill it is capable of producing a settler, meaning pop lvl 3

You can build 3 warriors and then a settler. Thats 2 extra explorers! knowing the map and making contact is very important.
After that, you can build a granary, at least a granary helps with growing the city faster.

And even if I decide that I'll build so many units between settlers (such as a settler pump with 2 sfpt, and lots of mined bonus grass) that I should build a barracks and make them vet units, then I'd still wait until after the first settler. Getting those 3 regular warriors at the start to explore and make contact is still more important.
 
At much higher levels, the AI will take care of the barbarians, and if one of the AI should decide to attack you that early, then you'd be toast anyway.
 
There was a player here not that long ago who used to swear by adding the worker to the capital right away. It doesn't sound to me like it would be optimal, but I always meant to try it, and I never got around to it...

Sorry, Pyrrhos, but as an obsessive micromanager I absolutely can't let you get away with this :D:

Worker
Turn 1 - move
Turns 2 to 7 - mine (BG) [don't work this tile yet!]
Turns 8 to 10 - road

Just work the mined tile. You get a warrior a bit earlier, and can always build wealth for a turn or two - both positive things. Nothing good can come from deliberately not using your best tile unless you are prebuilding something.

If you really are offended by the extra shield, then please road the tile first :).
 
Sorry, Pyrrhos, but as an obsessive micromanager I absolutely can't let you get away with this :D:

Just work the mined tile. You get a warrior a bit earlier, and can always build wealth for a turn or two - both positive things. Nothing good can come from deliberately not using your best tile unless you are prebuilding something.

If you really are offended by the extra shield, then please road the tile first :).
Didn't think straight. :blush: I'm so used to a build order of warrior > worker & if you'd work the mined BG, you'd botch things up:

Turn 1 to 5 - 10 food stored + one warrior
Turn 6 - 12 food + 2 shields
Turn 7 - 14 food + 4 shields
Turn 8 - 16 food + 7 shields
Turn 9 - 18 food + 10 shields >> you've got the shields but not the pop for the worker
Turn 10 - 20 food + 13 shields >>> you've got the food for the pop point and the shields but 3 shields are wasted.

Of course you build a warrior so work the mined BG straight away, doh! :blush:
 
Ah, if you want to go warrior then worker, you can build wealth on turn 6, then start the worker on turn 7, finish it on turn 10, and still squeeze out that critical 1 extra coin. Or, much better, just road first and pick up 6 extra coins :).
 
I looked at that article, and picked up something: never argue numbers with elite level players, they know the numbers to the Nth degree.....
 
I remember that, so I nosed around. The player was Unnamed Player and the thread that I think you might be referring to is here.

I looked at that article, and picked up something: never argue numbers with elite level players, they know the numbers to the Nth degree.....

I remember that, in a follow-up thread, forum member "Tribute" managed to prove that in some situations, building a granary in a 2 sfpt capital is a good idea. When there are at least 2 bonus grass and there is enough room to settle.

Resistance sometimes isn't futile. :)
 
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