early economy collapse due to early war

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by jaehyung, Nov 13, 2008.

  1. jaehyung

    jaehyung Chieftain

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    hi guys, again :D

    basically I have been getting into the massive funnage of wars (ohhh yeahh) and I have a related question.

    How do you ever manage early wars? like I'm talking about chariot rush or early UU rush. Basically this is what just happened with me;
    I was gingkiss khan, got rly lucky with early horse near my BFC, and MORE lucky with lizzy stuck on my left side (she's got nowhere to rex cause I blocked her LoL...). So as anyone of my caliber(noobsie) would generally do, I chariot rush lizzy early on and destroy her face like no other. The problem is AFTER this.... my economy collapsed!! So I was left with 2 options - disband all my 8 chariots; or go for another guy and pillage his stuff like no tmr. And as anyone of my caliber(again, noobsie) would generally do, I went for pillaging. And then all my chariots die in horribungus death vs spearman, after I managed to stomp a city. And when I looked at my base, surprise! barbarian archers and axemans and spear dudes and duddetts just outside my 2 towns, and I cannot defend against that with 1 warrior stationed each... GG
    The main thing to note is, that I am usually left in a situation where I have nothing else left available to produce from my towns except for units, and my economy was collapsing, units going into riot, etc



    EDIT: okay 1 more question which just came up. Is it "valid" to play a game which you lost (or rage quit) and then play that very game again from the start, where you have alot of knowledge of terrain, AI position, necessary tech, etc? Like, there is no rule book or whatever saying that it is "invalid", or the word itself may not be appropriate, but everyone has their own little CoL and I'd like to hear from some of you!

    tips will be appreciated! thanx for readind
     
  2. SirLamphead

    SirLamphead Prince

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    Cottages, Cottages, Cottages. The earlier the better, and are very good by riversides. I see floodplains as salvation. You can cottage spam a city with a lot of flood plains and still have it grow.
    Anywho you need a lot of cottages.
    Get to writing and have a big city convert 2 citizens to scientists (+8 beakers with 3 from each scientist and +25% research from the library).
    That way you can keep going for CoL if you missed it on the Oracle bump.
     
  3. FriendoftheDork

    FriendoftheDork Keiser

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    #1: How did your economy "collapse?" Did you have negative GPT with 0% science, and not enough gold to run negative for a few turns?

    #2: Did you manage your cities to produce more commerce? Building cottages or just working a commerce-rich tile can in the start be enough to turn the economy around.

    #3: Did you forget to build workers to improve your cities?

    #4: What year was this, and or turn? How far away was the Hatty? Distance penalty can kill you early on. Number of cities alone will not, unless you neglect to improve those cities.

    As for your last question, yes this is very valid and a good way to improve your play. Go for it. I've even restarted a game 2-3 times (on Emperor) in order to not waste my early game on a false strategy.
     
  4. jaehyung

    jaehyung Chieftain

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    I restarted on the same map and am doing superb at the moment! The best start I've had in a long long time. I learned a LOT from this restart as well, so yeah it sure is worth it haha

    @friendofthedork
    #1. Yeah lol.. it was bad, I was messing chariots straight up like a noob, but now i know it sux to do so
    #2. that's exactly what I didn't do before rushing, which I shouldv'e done :O
    #3. nahh
    #4. like BC 2500? turn 50? not rly sure, but she was relly relly close to me


    okay, so here is a screenshot of my game atm, 1 turn away from liberalism! It is emperor, and im the mighty mongol. It is such a good start, I almost don't even wanna play on in fear of losing lol....

    See how england got raped ? hahahaha that was funny... she was so unlucky!
     

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  5. Lemon Merchant

    Lemon Merchant Hall Monitor Super Moderator

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    @jaehyung:
    Maybe you could explain to me how the concept of anybody being raped is funny?
     
  6. Joshua368

    Joshua368 Warmongering builder

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    What's worse is when gamers start using "rape" as an adjective. :cringe:

    Yes they found a way.
     
  7. nNemethon

    nNemethon Chieftain

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    Absolutely the rankest, most disgusting thing I have heard on this board. Not funny in the least.
     
  8. jaehyung

    jaehyung Chieftain

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    maybe I am too used to the online gaming environment where certain words are used more frequently than they should be :O

    To correct you there, the concept of "anybody" getting raped isn't funny at all, but I obviously didn't mean it as in England, which isn't "anybody" to begin with, got sexually assaulted in a way you would normally imagine what "rape" would be like. Of course I used it as an adjective which may or may not be tolerable.

    But if you really think about it, the concept of anybody being killed is arguably something even worse, yet is used frequently, moreso than any other. Yes there are better word choices, and yes I am civil enough to know the difference. But had I expected such responses from a comment of an once excited-by-a-never-done-before-accomplishment-of-self, wouldn't have used it.

    Where I come from, this game called dota - a custom game in Warcraft III, which managed to get more popularity than the engine itself (kinda like counter-strike), usage of such words are quite tolerable. A great example of how online gaming effects young minds :I
     
  9. nNemethon

    nNemethon Chieftain

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    I understand the term you used it in, as a lot of players in Diablo II also seems to bandy the word with gay abandon. The new generations coming through consider the term to now mean "destroy in the fastest and most violent way possible". Many consider the horror of the crime well above murder or death in that it has a lifetimes devastating effect on the victim and those that surround. I am one of them.

    At least now on these forums you understand the gravity of a loosely thrown term and I believe you will not use it again.
     
  10. Pook

    Pook Bloviating

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    I believe Senator Kerry pronounced it as Jenjis.:lol:

    I assume by the phrase "economy collapsed" that you mean you are at negative gold per turn even with research at 0%.

    I am a fan of the axeman rush. The way I pay for it is through religion. I almost always (on Monarch level) get the Oracle slingshot to either Theology or Code of Laws, and found my own religion. I go to organized religion to boost production and so that I don't need special buildings to build missionaries. My first GP is invariably a great prophet- build that religion's holy site, and it's an easy source of cash flow in the early game.

    The cottage method mentioned earlier is also excellent.

    I will replay a failed game with a change in strategy. I want to see "what might have been" if I had done things differently. In the back of my mind, I will always know that I "cheated" (by my own ethical standards). I remember the words of Aslan: "You want to know what WOULD have happened, child. No. No one is told that."
     
  11. scu98rkr

    scu98rkr Prince

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    How can it be worse than being murdered ? What a strange remark.
     
  12. Lemon Merchant

    Lemon Merchant Hall Monitor Super Moderator

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    Being murdered means that you don't have to constantly relive the experience and try to cope with it. It's never happened to me, but in r/l I get to see the after-effects all the time. For the first 3 years of my nursing career I was an ER nurse. I've seen far too many rape victims. Now that I work in a psych unit, I get to see the human wreckage of what's left afterward. The women who can't cope or get past it.

    So yeah, I'd rather be murdered, thanks.
     
  13. UWHabs

    UWHabs Deity

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    To the original question, I think the biggest problem with new people who take chariots/axes/swords (or Praets...) rushes is in capturing your opponent's cities. The problem is while you rush and capture, you get the cash from capturing the cities, and that fuels everything. And while the captured cities are in resistance, you don't pay maintenance. It's when you get to peace, and all those captured cities now have 3-5 per turn maintenance costs, early economies really falter sometimes.
     
  14. Willem

    Willem Deity

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    The problem isn't with capturing the cities, it's trying to hang on to them afterwards. Until you have a well established economy, you're better off just razing them. The distance from capital maintenance costs can cripple you, and if you raze them you'll at least have lots of room for your own expansion. There's nothing wrong with an early rush, just don't try to hang on to their cities as well as developing your own.
     
  15. Wolfshanze

    Wolfshanze CFC Historian

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    You can start expanding early so long as you're maintaining an economic base along the way... this means cottages, markets, grocers, banks, courthouses, etc... the sooner you can attain these things in number, the better for an expanding war effort. You can't just build nothing but military... you need a balance... you can't have 10 chariots away from home and no cottages or markets back at home... you need to learn to balance!
     
  16. jaehyung

    jaehyung Chieftain

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    @wolfshanze "you need to learn to balance!"

    I definitely agree. Balancing the warfare and managing the economy is definitely something I need to, and am working on at the moment. Starting to find out that going for one of them all the way does no good!

    But you will be surprised how fast I got my 10 chariots early on. I had 2 cities running at the start because I produced an early settler (took 17 turns cause Im imperial, so I was like, O---KAY let's do this), and my base had a stunning production of 2-turns-each for a chariot!
     
  17. jaehyung

    jaehyung Chieftain

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    @pook
    I am also the fan of religious path XD
    But it seems to me that you gotta be given the right conditions in order to complete the oracle, because I learned that going for certain wonders without being industrious or having the right resource, the emperor AI will always beat you to it!
     
  18. Pook

    Pook Bloviating

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    There are definitely choices to be made. Going for the Oracle means a conscious choice to wait on some military-related techs. It also involves timing- having a couple of workers ready to chop forests at the right moment so that you complete the Oracle just after you finish the last prerequisite tech for Theology or Code of Laws.

    I agree with Wolfshanze that balancing economic development with military expansion is critical. Part of the balance is that I always have plenty of workers and I keep them busy.
     
  19. brainshannon

    brainshannon Chieftain

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    Not only is it not offensive, it is 100% accurate as one of the definitions of the word rape is "the act of despoiling a country in warfare." How can properly using a word to describe a situation be offensive?:confused:

    Me thinks some people need to realize that many words have more than one definition... and also just calm down in general instead of blowing everything out of proportion.
     
  20. Negator_UK

    Negator_UK King

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    The same context as being killed, nuked, whipped or starved.
     

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