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Early game build order

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by 59saintdane, Nov 24, 2014.

  1. consentient

    consentient Domination!

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    If you mean what specific coding change occurred, I don't know. But I play countless games a week and can tell you that before patch, HG was almost impossible to get, and SH quite easy. Usually didn't go until T37-40. Now HG is relatively easy to get and SH much harder, because the ones going Tradition are going for a wider range of Wonders, and the ones going Piety are going for SH like a fat kid for cakes.
     
  2. beetle

    beetle Deity

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    Your experiences are consistent with my own.

    I am not looking for anything that specific. I am asking, what is there in the patch notes that might explain these behavioral differences? Yes, the Traditional and Piety trees were tweaked, and those changes feel like likely culprits, but I just don’t see how to logically connect the dots.
     
  3. consentient

    consentient Domination!

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    Well, simply put, Tradition has been brought down a sizeable notch. You could finish Tradition really early before by going straight for the free Monuments, and now the finisher comes 15-30 turns later.

    And Piety can be 'finished' - read: religion reformed - about 15-30 turns quicker. Since a few of the reformation policies are VERY desirable, even to the half-brain-dead AI (I'm looking at you, Jesuits), it's actually really much more worth going for. My last two games have been Liberty-Piety DiploVs (on Deity) that had beakers and turn times comparable with any Tradition run I've made.

    I'd argue that overall, the most consistent Policy selection for a game in which you don't explicitly limit yourself to peaceful turtling (SV and non-war CV) dips into Liberty-Piety-Patronage-Commerce-Rationalism (maybe even Trad opener before the above) and can utilise all 3 ideologies equally well depending on which VC you ultimately end up going for.

    The patch, in short, was a good thing. You can go Liberty, play with a wide empire, ignore the boringness of Rationalism, and still win consistently.
     
  4. budweiser

    budweiser King of the Beers

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    It was probably never intended that a player would open one single tree and then finish it before moving on to the next one.

    That being said, I'm finding that I finish Tradition in the 100-105 range post patch if I don't come up with some extra source of culture form a pantheon or something. You know, doing the same thing over and over (tradition) can lead to stagnation. If I do get an extra source of culture, I can sometimes get it finished as early as turn 80. But I still mostly just do Tradition for the sake of a faster play time.
     
  5. consentient

    consentient Domination!

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    Hard-building settlers that take over 10 turns is why I almost never play tradition unless my T10 scouting shows that I have no other choice because there is no space to expand. Sometimes even then it is better to go 2 city NC full Honor and take someone else's 4 city Tradition empire for yourself.
     
  6. budweiser

    budweiser King of the Beers

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    I'll start a settler at about size 4 or 5 in the 30s when it shows 10-12 turns. Meanwhile, my worker is improving tiles and maybe chopping so it doesn't end up taking 10-12. My rule of thumb is cap size is at least turn number/10 so I don't really fall behind.

    Oh, and third policy (free monument) hits as the city gets founded.
     
  7. tommynt

    tommynt Emperor

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    the Point of this start is that there is just 0 reason to build other things as settlers early on.

    All you want in early game is fast expanding while meeting all civs and CS.

    Get good Relations going and quests to fullfill cant mathematicly coded down easily but is just so ueberimportant.

    Other Options:
    worker: gets stolen
    Shrine: on deity you either meet reli CS or live without Religion pretty much allways, something like having loads of stones Close might be worth adjusting
    Granny: delays Settlers for no reason, doesnt help anything with building them
    Monument: Meh takes too Long and goes free some Point anyway, only an Option when mixing trees
     
  8. beetle

    beetle Deity

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    Straight Tradition was hardly hurt. Personally, I was in the habit of hard building monument in cap anyway (since I might want to switch to Liberty). The free monuments spawn soon enough for the expos. It has to be closer to a handful of turns, not 30!

    I agree that the reformation policy is available 15-30 turns quicker. One can tune a game around early Jesuit Education. It is quite interesting to do things differently!

    When I have replayed my Liberty wide starts as 4-city Tradition, the 4-city Tradition run has always resulted in lower turn count. Of course, map knowledge is part of that. The Liberty runs were more fun though...

    The real power of Tradition comes from getting the finisher ASAP, but that works against skipping around. Piety/Patronage/Rationalism all makes sense to me. What are the policies you like best in Commerce? I may be undervaluing that tree.

    Yes, the patch was a good thing. I don't really see how it particularly helps Liberty though, except for the times you want to pare it with Piety (which is prolly often, but not always). Tradition is now much less appealing for cherry-picking, so the Honor/Liberty player is not tempted by Tradition (except for maybe the opener) like they were before.

    None of these observations provides insight as to why the AIs are prioritizing SH now...

    It certainly was intended! The SP get stronger as you drill down, and then there is a powerful finisher in each tree. The change to both Tradition and Piety works against this earlier design, as now there are weak orphaned SP choices that will be last, and consequently finishing either tree is now much less appealing. Yes, the developers could have forced the player to finish trees before opening the next one, but it is better that the player has choices.
     
  9. consentient

    consentient Domination!

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    If you want the central thrust of your VC to be conquest - i.e. DomV or warring CV or DiploV - then Commerce is almost essential.

    Only the opener and Wagon Trains are much good on their own (Landsknechts have a really short window on Deity) but Protectionism is huge, the finisher is huge, and Big Ben+Mobilization+Autocracy = win.
     
  10. mbbcam

    mbbcam Prince

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    Many thanks for explaining your reasoning -- I find this very useful.
     
  11. beetle

    beetle Deity

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    I just noticed that you can purchase Landsknechts long after they are obsolete. The no-move-cost-to-pillage upgrade is huge for lancers (and gunships). Gunships inheriting move-after-attack from lancers is pretty important too. It takes a few turns, but buying a gunship with these “priceless” upgrades cost no more than direct purchase of a regular gunship.
     
  12. jko1

    jko1 copper4eva

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    Are you ever gonna upload the rest of the game tommynt. I've played games before that was close if not on the same track as that inca game but always seem to take too long late game, even if you thought wasn't totally optimal in the finish I would still love to watch it.
     
  13. 59saintdane

    59saintdane Warlord

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    How about building a monument post-patch? Now that legalism is your third policy, it's a long time to go without a monument...
     
  14. R0cafella

    R0cafella Chieftain

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    I also pondered this so I decided to give Scout Scout worker a try on a standard size Pangea.

    I managed to pop a couple of culture ruins which offset building the monument so late of course YMMV however.
     

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