Early Game Deity training - Semi Isolated Jungle

[TheMeInTeam]

Hey all. Like I said, I've been working the computer problems and deity. The game's highest level is quite punishing, but that's no secret.

Having moved up a level, I decided to go with a leader who is quite balanced: Mehmed. Good traits for expansion, viable starting techs, solid UU which I'll never see use of on deity at my current skill, nice early UB. Ok. I run into an issue: I am semi-isolated on a decent-sized continent with vicky. Settings are deity, normal speed fractal no events/huts.

Here's a look at the current situation:














My questions here:

1) I need IW and pronto. Unfortunately, there are no gems or something to relieve the cap, and vicky has nothing of that sort to trade. Basically I have only her religion. That's starting to hurt about now. Jungle won't clear itself though. I can't get vicky to friendly soon so the ONLY things I can trade for are Alpha and Monarchy. Do I binary tech aesthetics and trade it for alpha, build research/scientist my way to IW/monarchy (or possibly IW ----> compass ----> back trade monarchy if possible?)
2) I started a GS late as in the 500's BC. Prior to this, I was selling my soul for cities although I at least got pottery/writing first. Was this the right call? Even an OK call? I've blocked enough room for 11 cities which is pretty good for deity, but at the same time I'm bleeding in terms of tech rate and it's going to be a while before that picks up. If Vicky DoWs I'm toast, but let's just assume for the moment I get lucky and she doesn't stab me even though she has a good chance of it.
3) What's the fastest way to dig out of this?
4) Have I already lost by 400 BC, or am I just rattled because the tech pace is faster than I'm used to, and it's still possible to pull this out?

I'll attach the saves, too.

View attachment AutoSave_Initial_BC-4000.CivBeyondSwordSave

View attachment AutoSave_BC-0425.CivBeyondSwordSave

I WELCOME shadows and alternate approaches to this map that win too.

Deity lives up to its name, but I just hate not clearing the final hurdle...

 

[oyzar]

Aestics -> Drama -> bulb philo trade for monarchy(and hopefully something all the way up to CS or theology, though IW is more important to trade for), bulb paper and edu*2, take nationalism from lib. Use the golden age from taj to tech gunpowder and pwn Viccy with your UU. Easier said than done because Viccy will likely decleare on your halfway. Hopefully you will at least be able to get some resource trade with her along with religion, ob and peace. Maybe you can even get some +'s for trade. Need to get her to friendly asap. You have a lot of those cottages laid down, while what you need is massive bulbing and using drama for happiness until you get HR (easier said than done, as i don't really have that much practice actually playing against semi isolated AI).

 

[troytheface]

i suggest "semi-isolation" may be a prerequisit for Diety victory rather than a specific condition within that level. "half isolation" in essence- "i am alone except i am not-" or - "i have room to expand unoppossed and i can trade" (not to be one)

q4- the tech race turns to trade as the end all- espionage ? (religion sabotage/tech steal)

 

[JammerUno]

In this case I would try to get the highest possible bpt while heading to HR, land looks good and once you get there vertical growth with give you good commerce.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Aestics -> Drama -> bulb philo trade for monarchy(and hopefully something all the way up to CS or theology, though IW is more important to trade for), bulb paper and edu*2, take nationalism from lib. Use the golden age from taj to tech gunpowder and pwn Viccy with your UU. Easier said than done because Viccy will likely decleare on your halfway. Hopefully you will at least be able to get some resource trade with her along with religion, ob and peace. Maybe you can even get some +'s for trade. Need to get her to friendly asap. You have a lot of those cottages laid down, while what you need is massive bulbing and using drama for happiness until you get HR (easier said than done, as i don't really have that much practice actually playing against semi isolated AI).

I don't mind this path except that I will not have IW until after philo. Vicky is not willing to trade it and that will not change until she meets someone or i get her to friendly.

Even with the religion and shared resources, that's not going to be instant.

 

[DMOC]

Tough map here ... personally I would tech Aesthetics - Drama and then bulb Philosophy. Get Monarchy and Alphabet from trades.

Why do you need Iron Working? You have no gems and your cities that are in the jungle have enough non-jungle tiles to work without going over the meager happy cap. Once your happy limit goes up, then take advantage of Iron Working.

Oh yeah you do have unirrigated rice ... but that's not worth teching Iron Working for.

One last thing TMIT, scout Victoria's cities.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Alright I get it now. I'm guessing in this case bulb philosophy before the academy?

 

[DMOC]

If you meet no one else and you can trade Philosophy for Monarchy and Iron Working with Victoria, I'd do it. Academies can come later with future Great Scientsts if necessary. Alphabet is a prerequisite of many techs that Great Scientists can lightbulb.

To get Alphabet, hopefully you can give Victoria Aesthetics for that.

 

[Yamps]

Note that you can't bulb Philosophy without Math and Alphabet...

My Deity experience is very limited and rather brutal, but I've opened the save and here are some comments:

- I think you've over expanded, you'd be better of with less cities. City maintenance costs are very high and when you spend your accumulated gold on Aesthetics you'll have huge problems

- getting Monarchy from trade instead of Alpha would be much better because you need to grow and you have cottages to work instead of science building

- getting Vicky to Friendly is key, her no attack value on Pleased is 80 and you need the trades.

Some options to get Vicky to Friendly:

You could give Clam to Vicky for free and there's also Stone if you research Masonry. Besides the usual bonus from trading resources, with strategic resources especially, you can get a max +2 in fair trade bonuses. Maybe this was an option before, but you don't have the time now.

You're at +5 with Vicky and you can only get +1 more from same religion. Her base attitude is 0, but there's that -1 from Deity level so full +4 from trade gifts won't be enough for Friendly.

There's just one option left: Liberating cities. Each city gives 1.5 so you'd need 2 for a full 3. You'd still have to gift a tech to her as well to get her. She's willing to take the eastern city, but not Konya. She also has a settler there moving around, but Konya's borders will expand on the next turn...Maybe you can plant a settler somewhere for her to take the city, or maybe she'll be willing to take Konya if she settles nearby.

Anyway, I think you have to bite the bullet here and do what's necessary: liberate 2 cities. This will reduce city maintenance and help with the tech catchup. Monarchy first from trade, Alphabet next using Drama. You will still need Math before Philo bulbing so it's pretty tough...but you could always try going for Culture if you get her to Friendly with some drastic measures.

Well, that's my 2 anyway, it will be interesting to hear the advice from experienced Deity players regarding this.

 

[Jet]

How about bulbing Math and researching COL through Pri. Then you can get 3 happy from buildings and your cities can keep busy building them. Then research IW and Alpha (or bulb Alpha) but at COL you can also mix in spies and maybe pop one. You should probably be able to beg Mono or something.

 

[Dirk1302]

I think you're fine here. I like the early expansion as you're long term potential promises you'll win any endgame. You don't have to worry about lib here, you won't get it and it doesn't matter. It would have helped to have the GS now.

IW is important but monarchy and alpha are more important now as you just can't work enough tiles now even if you were able to cut the jungle and you'll need a boost researchwise.

You have quite a lot of options here i may easily have missed some good ones,

1. Stay on binary research until you can make the academy. I'd produce axes/spears in that case to have some protection. After academy aest will be finished too just on scientist's research, trade for alpha.I'd research currency next with the accumulated gold + research converted production. This won't take much time, if you're lucky trade it for monarchy with Vicky, if not research another tech to trade for monarchy. You'll be fine researchwise after currency.

2. Or finish aest directly as soon as money allows you to get there straight. Then the choices above apply but you won't find it easy now to research a second tech soon now.

3.Philo bulb needs math and alpha and col/drama. Instead of researching col after math alpha currency would already be better so i wouldn't go this path with the first gs. Only reason to do so is getting a +4 fair trade modifier from Vicky if you more or less gift it to her. The chances of Vicky attacking you are not that high, 1/1000 modified by the ihighunitspend factor which'll probably be < 5/turn. Not negligible though as there are a lot of turns coming. I'm not even sure if this'll get her to friendly though, i'd build some troops and scout what she's doing, you can often read in the troop movement is something's afoot.

4. research meditation/priesthood first, this'll give you temples and monasteries and missionaries giving you some sensible things to build.

I'd go with 4. followed by 1 med->priest followed by accumulating gold, build temples and monasteries first. Actually the initial slow research doesn't bother me that much as it'll be corrected later. Once all libraries are up you're at 42 bpt anyway at 0%, better with academy and monasteries.

Once your workers are finished improving tiles build a road work through the jungle. Your workers will now be able to improve the most important tiles there fast later. You'll need a lot more workers later to keep momentum here. Although they cut into your maintanance i would stagnate fast growing cities with workers/settlers. Once you have currency col you want to be ready with more workers/settlers to take full advantage of all the land. Building workers/settlers once currency/col are in is too late as you'll want courthouses + some markets then. I'd settle the rest of the land aggressively after currency.

Liberating cities is an interesting idea but it would shift the power on the island in Vicky's favor later. I wouldn't do it.

Edit: Didn't realize right away, you're organized, making your position even better. Maybe after your first trade for aest researching Col is better than currency. You'll have those courthouses up in no time. Then you can run 2 scientists/priest/spy if needed for gpp. Currency gets you a second route (some'll be domestic though) and resources to trade, you'll also have wealth which is significantly better than research. Col is a more positive approach as you build buildings instead of wealth. For me it might depend on Vicky having currency once you do your first trade for alpha. If not you might trade currency for monarchy, otherwise i'd prefer Col.

 

[Lansky]

Messed around with the start a bit playing to around 1000AD a few times. The strongest one was indeed just a blitz expansion to claim as much land as possible and catch up later. Had one where I grabbed the pyramids and got out to a very fast start, but I missed GL and NE took ages greatly slowing down the research pace later on.

One thing was constant, but it involves the other continent.

Spoiler :

Vicky ends up fairly weak, however in every game Wang Kong had 2-3 of the other 4 AI's as his vassals with Julius Caesar being the only one with the power to stand up to him. Justinian and Saladin were weaklings and Mansa, while strong, seemed to voluntarily vassal to him half the time

A low sample size in which every religious nut stuck to the religion he founded, but aggravating nonetheless. Beating Wang to the Internet even seemed a stretch... for me at least

 

[Dirk1302]

Last thought on position and then i let you play it . Since i advocated med->priesthood first it makes sense to leave aesthetics alone and go straight for col after accumulating the gold. Aesthetics is so useless in your position that even a straight go for alpha seems safer than risk getting aest and than not being able to trade it. But col first seems to be better than alpha as building courthouses raising the slider will have roughly the same effect but is a more positive move than building science. With religion spread everywhere you can grow to 6 everywhere, 7 in capital. If needed you have 4 spec slots. You'll also have a solid spy base earlier now to set up some stealing.

 

[Yamps]

^but Vicky already has CoL, they share Confu religion. Doesn't that change things for trading purposes?

 

[DMOC]

I did a shadow game up to 1500 BC ish. Victoria was super-fast in my game, stealing the Ankara spot and making other blocking cities TMIT had useless. But anyway I'm a few turns away from building the Pyramids to help my tech rate. Unfortunately, I didn't get to complete it before my CIV playing time was up, so now I have to wait a whole day or so to find out if I really am going to get the Pyramids.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Thanks for the pointers Dirk. Option 4 looks good here. I'll play a bit more then post when I run into more ?'s.

I ran LHC stalin in between for a quick 90 min win .

 

[Dirk1302]

^but Vicky already has CoL, they share Confu religion. Doesn't that change things for trading purposes?

Don't think so, everything now researched to trade to Vicky is useless for ourselves so there's no net gain.

 

[JBossch]

I agree with Dirk that you expanded well. You've blocked a lot of decent land from Vicky which bodes well long term. I also agree with switching to something other than aesthetics. With more trade partners I don't mind researching it even when I know I won't use it but with only Vicky it might be best to go for something more useful, hopefully setting up the philo bulb. I have never won Deity with only one early trade partner though, so what do I know?

Good luck!

 

[JBossch]

btw, is the conventional wisdom on Deity semi-isolated starts to let the overseas AIs find you? Or beeline optics? It seems like they will often find you first but sometimes its only the most advanced that get early caravels and the backwards ones that you might be able to trade with take longer.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

can I ask why you are building a monument in your cap? As opposed to kicking out more warriors so your other cities can build infrastructure? or workers, so you can clear vast swathes of jungle fast?