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Early game play

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by georgel123, Dec 25, 2011.

  1. georgel123

    georgel123 Chieftain

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    I play my games on Epic Speed, with Noble difficulty, slowly moving towards prince. Usually, I research BW first to chop forests and for an axe rush. For the capital, I build worker, worker, settler, all with chops. I can manage to get my second city to hook up bronze fairly quickly, and then I build around a dozen axes to rush my nearest neighbor. By this time, I try to quickly build markets, grocers, with whipping, as well as cottage spamming to get my slider from 60% back to at least 90% by the time gunpowder is researched.

    Now, this is a typical rushing CE strategy that works on lower difficulties with success. I have tried SE as well as REXing, but I never used it well enough to do better than my CE games.

    In case of tl;dr : Why is SE better with higher difficulties? And what do you feel about REX vs Early Rush?
     
  2. Seraiel

    Seraiel Chieftain

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    Why do you build Markets and Grocers if you're running with a research slider of up to 90%?
     
  3. Um the Muse

    Um the Muse Chieftain

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    It sounds like you're depending on some out-dated guides. Chopping has gotten nerfed, so it's usually a better idea to get the settler out before the second worker. Also, you'll find that bonus resources are forever, forests are one time good deals. A strong tile, like pigs or corn, will easily get you faster workers and settlers.

    It is customary to build one worker, improve your food resource(s) first while growing your city, then your other special resources. When you've got 3 or 4 pop in the capital, go for your settler, followed by a worker.

    Next idea probably came from the War Academy as well. There's nothing wrong with letting your slider drop while you're expanding. Remember that it's ultimately the beakers that do the research, not the percent commerce converted to research.

    For your last question, SE gets better on higher difficulties for a couple of reasons.
    1. AI's tech faster. This means that you must research faster to keep up if you're going to trade techs
    2. Costs are higher. You have to think harder about city placement when the majority of your commerce has to pay for your cities
    3. Better players tend to know the tech tree better. They know what the important techs are, they usually know what techs will keep them from bulbing this or that technology, and the they tend to keep a firmer focus on which techs are worth getting and which get in the way of their plan.

    Finally, the terms SE and CE are not really worth fretting over. You'll find that most will use both cottages and specialists, as well as other means, to the point where the terms are basically meaningless.
     
  4. Um the Muse

    Um the Muse Chieftain

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    The better question is, "why build them at all?" Hopefully, you're only doing it for the added health/happies and only in the late Renaissance era or later
     
  5. georgel123

    georgel123 Chieftain

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    Correct. I try to make use of my resources, and also for the fact that during war preparations I drop the slider to zero to amass gold for upgrading axes into maces, maces into rifles, etc.
     
  6. Seraiel

    Seraiel Chieftain

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    Actually you would imho do better, if you simply kept researching with high percentage and took the gold from techtrade. Normally one can easily get some k of gold 1 turn after a wonder has been completed when the failgold drops in for a single tech. And I don't know when you end your games or for what victory conition you're playing, cause in my last game which was a domination by 675 ad on huge / marathon I had neither happiness problems nor healthiness problems, as cities only had a size auf up to 15, which was easily equalized by the conquered / traded ressources, of course, I whipped frequently. If you're going for space-race though and end the game after 1k ad it can be worth building those buildings as cities will get really really large, but before that, it's normally better to simply whip more units and conquer more land.
     
  7. Archbob

    Archbob Ancient CFC Guardian

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    You do it in the capital if you've settled GE's in it. Also if you wage early war, that slider isn't going to be at 90%.
     
  8. Marcvs Avrelivs

    Marcvs Avrelivs Warmongering Fool

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    Agreed; I usually face the problem of overexpansion. This is where the specialists come in; I usually have my science slider at 20-30% by 1 AD, and since CE takes some time to jumpstart (unless if you've been cottaging early on, which I don't :p), specialists provide a nice way to keep up with tech parity. Have I mentioned that an SE is fun too? :D

    Edit: for the second part of the question, REX is much better than an early rush, in my opinion. You don't get any diplomatic penalties (aside for the usual "Our close borders spark tensions") plus, you wouldn't have to devote valuable hammers to an early army which may cause you to go bankrupt :)
     
  9. Archbob

    Archbob Ancient CFC Guardian

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    Actually on Noble it really doesn't matter. I generally just build Pyramids, either GW or SH and a few other wonders while building a good military to protect my cities. Then I basically just improve my tiles and win a space or culture victory. You can pretty much win every game doing this.
     
  10. Seraiel

    Seraiel Chieftain

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    By GE, do you mean great Engineer? O_o

    Actually I've never settled a single great Person, I only use 1 GP to build a Shrine and 1 GS to build an Academy, all others are used for serious lightbulbing or 2-3 golden Ages.

    And waging early war, slider is of course not at 90%, it's down to 0% in most of my games still having deficit GPT, but at that time, one doesn't usually have markets / currency let alone grocers, or, with how many units do you attack? Usually 7-12 troops are imho enough to conquer a city, and if there's a consistent flow of reinforcements, one can keep conquering without ever having to pay maintenance for troops at all, at least on noble.

    I'd really recommend getting a shrine and building the GLH, together with ressource trade this normally makes 70% of my research rate, and it should be fairly easy on noble. The other 30% are deficit which is filled by mass-techtrade, and with 100% research for 75% of the game, there really is no need for such huge investments like markets or grocers except for the happiness / healthiness problems Um mentioned, I agree with him / her on that. I guess you could make the same money you get from markets / grocers simply by building more units and conquering / razing more cities. With this, you also keep the AI's busy resettling the places so it will build settlers instead of more troops which could hurt you. I know from Wastintime that he does this, in order to earn money and keep the AI busy.

    Just some thoughts.
     
  11. OneLeggedRhino

    OneLeggedRhino Chieftain

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    SE > CE in many situations, if a player knows how to use it properly. That requires managing great people, specializing cities, etc. Mostly, it's better because SE is faster and more flexible. (Cottages take a long time to become good).

    CE > SE if the player doesn't particularly know how to use either. You can't really screw up a CE, while you can definitely screw up a SE. Also, there are situations where a well-run CE > a well-run SE.

    It's not about the level of difficulty. It's about the level of experience of the player.
     
  12. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    This is a awesome move, one that I do not think is mentioned often enough on the forums.
    I relied heavily on this feature in my latest game,
    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=449695

    When you have a huge outdated army on another continent, you can simply take a city, any city will do, and then you can get them shining modern with gold from the slider.

    When you got a modern army on the other continent, while you are safe on your continent, it doesn't matter if you have sacrificed abit of tech-rate.
    "Power grows out of the barrel of a gun."
     
  13. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    I think this is close to useless.

    1 gold per city? And you have to divert both a great person on it, AND you have to build missionaries.
    They are awesome if captured, but to relying on getting these up to speed by yourself, usually only leaves your guard down.
     
  14. Archbob

    Archbob Ancient CFC Guardian

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    Dude, its a noble game on Epic speed. Game sequence should go like:

    Cottage Spam, build Pyramids and a few other wonders plus defense units.

    Get up to rifling

    Build a bunch of riflemen

    Conquer world

    Win

    On Noble I don't bother with early rushes, I build my economy and settle-expand first. Get a massive tech lead and kill everyone.

    I don't chop for settler/worker, saving the trees for wonders instead. grassland forest make nice tiles so sometimes I don't chop them at all.

    The issue with SE is that it doesn't work later in the game once its takes several GP's to bulb a tech. The thing is mass settling GPP's in a single city while running rep may be better in the long run than just bulbing. But thats just my opinion.
     
  15. Seraiel

    Seraiel Chieftain

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    Read Replay #2 and you'll get a different opinion ;)

    Only thing I say is, +108g UNMODIFIED from the shrine, and I built about 10 missionaries the whole game. All it needs is a good river + sailing for religion to spread, the rest is done by the AI.
     
  16. Mylene

    Mylene Chieftain

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    I'd recommend specialists strategies with Pyras, and replace Rifles with Curis ;)
    Much better on higher levels, why not learn early how advanced play works.
     
  17. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Your "Replay #2" has no value what so ever, when it comes to regular games.
    In your case the shrine was good, but it doesn't mean it is a good advice to throw out to people who are playing ordinary games.
     
  18. Seraiel

    Seraiel Chieftain

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    Tell me where my shrine differs from the one in normal games plz.

    Shrine income helps immensly, always, as GLH does with coastal cities, there is no exception to that, and religion spreads like I said, get sailing so you get TR by rivers, then religion auto-spreads fast enough to get a decent amount of AI's that will then spread it for you, without building a single missionary.

    Imho you're simply reacting negative to me and have no arguments whatsoever. What I say is, that especially on lower difficulty lvls, where one can tech-trade less, one should get a shrine, on higher difficulty lvls is the maintenance that eats you up, in anyway a shrine helps a lot, argue about that.
     
  19. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Stop beeing ridiculus.
    You had like 12 cities at 1800 BC.

    These things doesn't happen in "normal" games.
     
  20. georgel123

    georgel123 Chieftain

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    I do play on Noble epic, true, but it doesn't mean I won't try to move up a difficulty level. So, to rephrase the question, suppose I were to play on Monarch, Emperor or Immortal. At this point, SE would probably be more worthwhile, but can the same be said about REXing compared to an early rush?

    * I have tried REXing with Cathy, very fun indeed. Just that I seem to prefer axe rushes I can eliminate a civilization early, but more importantly their capital is situated very well with plenty of hammers as well as food. Is early rushing still effective on higher difficulties, if at all even on noble compared to REX?
     

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