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Early modern tech tree makes no sense.

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Peng Qi, Aug 28, 2013.

  1. Peng Qi

    Peng Qi Chieftain

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    So it's becoming increasingly evident to me that the design of the new tech tree is pretty absurd in the early modern era, with most civs discovering how to fly before they discover COMBUSTION. What is this, the magical land of steamplanes? This makes war feel totally bizarre and alien during this short period, with WW1 planes and uh, WW1 bombers I guess zipping around the skies virtually unopposed by any form of land or sea unit, which is patently absurd for the era, as ships with guns capable of shooting down aircraft already existed by the time aircraft did. Heck, the actual method of dealing with aircraft in WW1 was a simple machine gun, which not only doesn't work and comes dramatically later in the tech tree than planes but for some reason arrives alongside dedicated AA guns, which weren't really developed until biplanes had stopped being a thing.

    Flight needs to have combustion as a prereq. The current system not only doesn't make sense, but also isn't very fun; "Great War Bombers," which didn't really exist at the time of the Great War and were woefully ineffective in real life, are completely dominating this section of the game because there are literally no counters to them on the field other than triplanes at the time, which means if a civ has even a slight tech disadvantage it will be absolutely crushed until it develops flight. The way it is right now feels totally weird and throws off my enjoyment of the game every time.
     
  2. kamex

    kamex Chieftain

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    Lets not forget about the Pikemen before bronze working.

    And currency before bronze working! Look with have stones with the emperors head etched into them.
     
  3. Peng Qi

    Peng Qi Chieftain

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    But at least those things don't have in-game ramifications to them that make the game less fun. Flight before combustion is stupid not just from a logical point of view, but also a gameplay one.

    (Besides, silver and gold are actually easier to mold than bronze so the currency thing actually makes sense. xD)
     
  4. Bl01_Z

    Bl01_Z Chieftain

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    Great war bombers were ineffective bc both sides had planes in real life. That amounted to large losses and small results. I would imagine world war one would have turned out differently if Germany was the only one with planes. To have that tech and not have your opponent have flight is op in real life and the game portrays that accurately.
     
  5. uncle bulgaria

    uncle bulgaria Chieftain

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    Oil being revealed by biology never made sense to me, geology surely :confused:
     
  6. nimzo28

    nimzo28 Chieftain

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    Totally agree with you.

    It isn't fun.

    By the way, WHY the "one unit per hex" is ignored with airplane? I can't put two Warrior, Worker or Archeologist on a same tile, but it's possible to put 10 airplanes on the same city. This kind of imbalance is absurd and not fun.

    City should have a limit: One "fighter type" unit, one "bomber type" unit and one "missile type" per city.

    It's not enough?

    Ok, why not a come back of the "airport" improvement? A tile with an airport improvement lose all his caracteristic (food, gold, production, so it become like a snow tile) but give the possibility to put 3 "flying" unit on it (one "fighter", one "bomber", one "missile"). If airport isn't occupied and you are in peace, this improvement could produce one point of tourism, one point of food and one point of gold.

    Maybe America could have in his UA the mention "tile with airport improvement doesn't lose his normal caracteristic (food, gold, production...)". In this way, America would have a big amelioration of his UA (and a synergitic one with his Bomber UU and the "buy tile with discount" mechanic).
     
  7. Socratatus

    Socratatus Chieftain

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    Yea,agreed. This is what I mean when I say the game feels like it was put togther by a kid with no interest in historical facts at all. He\she probably don`t even know how these things came to be invented, just did `what`s cool!` to him.
     
  8. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

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    As a way of explanation

    Combustion tech isn't "combustion" otherwise it would have to come with discovering fire.

    It is the ability to get large powerful internal combustion engines inside heavy vehicles. (Tanks, Destroyers)

    small internal combustion engines would probably be available around the tech steam power (which wouldn't represent ALL uses of steam power as some predate it say the Industrialization tech... etc.)

    Basically, each tech name isn't "first use" of that named technology it is a Particular use in some significant way (as seen by the benefits).

    The Reason those techs are put there is not because "it's cool" but to allow diverse gameplay strategies regarding tech path ie gameplay > history.

    (they may not have done well, but that is why they did it.)
     
  9. Socratatus

    Socratatus Chieftain

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    That old chestnut again.

    It has been proven that gameplay + history = educational and fun which also = Win\win.

    In fact history can be more amazing than made up nonsense. Guys just need to stop automatically thinking `history + game = no fun.`

    It just takes doing it right.
     
  10. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

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    True but sometimes gameplay+history=>fun might not be doable. The gameplay and history might be in conflict at certain points.

    And at those points you ditch history/realism and go for gameplay.

    fit it together where you can but remember that too much complexity is also bad for fun gameplay. (as is too little)

    I agree they could definitely try going through and renaming some techs to make them more realistic... but somethimes trying to fit it so that each thing directly follows would reduce the variability.
     
  11. ollethegreat

    ollethegreat Chieftain

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    i am allways frustrated that the railroad tech is in the modern era. and that great people uses cars in the industrial era.
     
  12. roymend

    roymend Chieftain

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    I don't care about this kind of issues.

    GAMEPLAY > REALISM
     
  13. Socratatus

    Socratatus Chieftain

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    I care. Think out of the box and you`ll see:

    GAMEPLAY + REALISM = EVEN BETTER GAMEPLAY.

    (I can do all caps too!)

    No doubt some will take what I say totally too far, but I talk of logical, reasonable realism that will add to the fun, yet make you realise `Wow! this can happen in REAL LIFE!" and, "So that`s how that works!"

    You get SMARTER AND HAVE FUN. What`s there not to like?
     
  14. Polisurgist

    Polisurgist Chieftain

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    None of these seems all that farfetched to me, and probably what I'd assume is going on in a civ that followed that particular tech path. Some of them might require a bit more mental gymnastics (internet without computers), but if you have a Gatling gun without gunpowder, it's probably a Gatling-style array of barrels for any one of the multitude of powderless projectile weapons that existed before powder became prevalent.

    If you rule out any goofy tech concepts like that, you may as well turn the tech tree into a single chain that represents the actual history of science. I'm sure there's a historian somewhere who can tell you why the printing press couldn't exist without sailing or something like that, which could rule out every single development that failed to happen in the real world.

    Side note: I do kind of agree that the unit progression around Flight is goofy, but that's less because it's unrealistic and more because there aren't any good countermeasures against GW Bombers.
     
  15. Green_Power

    Green_Power Chieftain

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    Seconded. If it's 1UPT, then it must count for all military units, otherwise the abstraction is lost. And, what about that never ending plane animations? And when there's 8 bombers in one city? Something definitely needs to be done about that.
     
  16. roymend

    roymend Chieftain

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    However, in my opinion, the kind of realism the OP mentioned is not worth changing. Everybody knows that in real life flight "requires" combustion, then why change it in game?

    I agree, though, that if a civ has an inaccurate UU, for example, then this needs changing, because you really learn from this kind of things.
     
  17. katfish

    katfish Chieftain

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    What pisses me off the most is that eventually you have to research back techs from other tree to move along. Like i'm already opened new world and have universities everywhere, but have to go back to knighthood.
    Would be awesome of they done something like paths, when you reach next era you automatically gain tech from other paths, but gain special bonus that depends on with path you took. Thought that obsoletes spies somewhat.
     
  18. MadKingAerys

    MadKingAerys Chieftain

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    That one doesn't bother me, currency without metals wasn't uncommon.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_pepper
    I'm sure other cultures have other history of some item being used as currency.

    But the planes without combustion engines is hard to swallow, as are gatling guns without gunpowder.

    Machine Guns come too late, tanks were developed because machine guns and trenches dominated the battlefield.

    But yeah, the later tech tree makes little sense IMO.
     
  19. SS-18 ICBM

    SS-18 ICBM Oscillator

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    Haven't explained this part yet, I'm afraid.

    Anyway, I was wondering how the Internet functioned in my last game without computers. Maybe it was based on radios?
     
  20. CountAccountant

    CountAccountant Chieftain

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    Slightly off-topic, but I just wanted to say that I really enjoyed your post. I'm looking forward to finally being aware of my Gatling crossbows and steam punk planes.
     

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