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Early momentum

Discussion in 'Civ2 - Strategy & Tips' started by whitebear, Dec 18, 2009.

  1. whitebear

    whitebear Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2009
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    Location:
    Fort Worth, Texas
    Greetings, my Civilized amigos,

    I am an "old" player of Civ2 Warlord, and after a decade am removing my diaper, looking for a new method for Civ2 Emporer/Diety.

    Technology race: Another poster mentioned pursuing Philosophy so that the AI does not get the free advance. I find this method necessary to keeping my head above the waves. My primary goals to achieve ASAP are: Philosophy, Economics, Democracy. I like to get Masonry for Pyramid for easy early city growth, but as I have read about "We love the <leader> day" it sounds much easier to grow slowly at the beginning and explode when you get a representative system of government. What would be a good wonder to pursue in replacement of Pyramids?

    I have much progress to make on my foreign relations, however, as historically I have interacted little with my AI opponents limited mostly to losing units to shady allies and bullying for easy gold when I can corner on a civilization that can't move or expand. From what I have read on this site, there is much to gain by me learning to effectively manipulate my AI opponents. Any advice for those successful in leading newbs?

    Love the game and surprised to discover such a wide playerbase all over the world connected by our lovely innernets :) Looking forward to learning from some pros,

    whitebear
     
  2. EnglishEdward

    EnglishEdward Deity

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    If playing on a large world at deity, I find I need many cities and unhappiness is the main obstacle. I therefore prioritise the Hanging Gardens over the Pyramids.
     
  3. Valka D'Ur

    Valka D'Ur Hosting Iron Pen in A&E Retired Moderator

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    I find also that no matter what level one plays at, Marco Polo's Embassy is crucial. You need to be able to trade tech, maps, bully people, know what they're up to, and have the ability to confidently tell them to get lost (aka withdraw their troops).
     
  4. Hexer

    Hexer Chieftain

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    Germany
    Against the AI Hanging Gardens + Michel + We love the King is much easier than pyramids growth.

    But I also remember a german player going for a heavy expand + pyramids build in republic. But that's more a PvP option. Man, he was good...
     
  5. Peaster

    Peaster Emperor

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    If you really want to learn to play, read DaveV's simple guide to "ICS". It's THE method to quickly build a big civ at Deity without excessive unhappiness. Changed my life!
     
  6. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

    Joined:
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    Reading alone will not do it. You have to practice what you learn and see what other players, specially great ones like Peaster, do under similar circumstances. There is only one way to do that: join the game of the month players. GOTM105 is being played right now.
     
  7. mpescatori

    mpescatori Chieftain

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Rome, Italy
    I started playing CIV2 in... 1996, and "graduated" to deity one day when I was bored with winning everything and getting fying saucers in 0 BC at Chieftain level.

    So much more interesting.

    At Deity level the more cities you havem the moreunhappy your people are, and after the first few cities you'll need one, even two military units to keep the peace of even a size one city.

    So, here's my strategy:

    1) I build cities ON the goody hexes, such as grain, copper, buffalo etc. so that their benefit cannot be stolen unless the city is taken/destroyed; building a city with two/three goody hexes in its radius means I will always be quarreling with the AI who will inevitably stand its own units on it.
    This also means that I can lead a group of three units (two infantry + one settler) and build an instantly defendable city ON an enemy goody hex 8^D

    2) RESEARCH, RESEARCH, RESEARCH ! Discovering Philosophy has two results:
    a) you get a free advance, and
    b) the AI doesn't. Genrally, I ask for Monarchy so that my military units become LEO.

    3) WONDERS in this order:
    a) Hanging Gardens (to keep the peace)
    b) Colossus IF I can build a city ON a gold/jewel hex, or with two/three fish/whale hexes in its radius (ships cannot bully me out of a sea hex like army units on land)
    after that
    c) Great Library (keep abreast of the others AND prevent AI from getting ahead of me)
    d) Great Wall (not only will AI beg for peace, instant city walls in new cities!)
    e) Richard's Crusade (only if I have the time... either in a heavily exploitable city (like, full of forests/mines all around) or in a seaport, to boost inherently poor production)
    f) Leonardo's Laboratory (I'm really bullish on this one)
    g) Michelangelo's Chapel (boosts/replaces Hanging Gardens)
    h) Bach's wotsit (boosts Mike's Chapel)
    i) Magellan's Expedition (if I have the time, else it could be a trap and they snatch...)
    ii) The Wonder you get with Economics, woooo, I forget the name of the gold ingot Wonder, but it makes you rich! Rich!! RICH !!!
    j) DARWIN'S VOYAGE ! Two free advances for me, none for the AI... 8^D
    k) Hoover Dam even before building factories
    l) United Nations (by this time the Great Wall will hve been made obsolete and lost)

    This seems like a whole lot, but my point is the Wonders all have somethign useful...
    Are there "useless" Wonders ?
    Well, there are a few which I have little or no use for...
    - The Oracle, because I skip Temples and go for the Colisseum in any city that needs one,
    - The Pyramids, because early in the game cities will grow too fast and riot too often,
    - King Richard's Crusade is nice to have but not essential.. indeed, once in Republic/Democracy you may find yourselves in a mess if KRCrusade becomes obsolete and your shields go negative!
    - Eiffel Tower: if I have the Great wall and get to build the United Nations fast enough... harrharrharr...
    - Vote to Women (Universal Suffrage) only really required in Democracy if you DON'T have Mike'sChapel + Bach, but the previous two are easier to build sequentially than Suffrage alone.
    - SETI is important only if one has so much advance... just to maintain that advance...
    - APOLLO will give you the entire map, OK, so what, I should have explored all I need by then...
    - Cure for Cancer - again, mostly to keep it from AI,
    - Manhattan Project: now, this one I really do not understand... I work to achieve the Manhattan Project and ALL the AI civs get nuclear weapons ? This is absurd, either the original programmers were "no-nukes" activists or they toggled the logic switch the wrong way... if I achieve the manhatan Project, I am the ONLY one to have nuclear weapons... (like in the real world) but it worls the wrong way around - so if any AI is working on the MP I send spies to sabotage it.

    I have also edited "rules.txt" and "units.gif" to my taste, these next few days I will be experimenting... freight trains (which boost trade) and the Guns of Navarone (since I don't know how to create a new Wonder, I've created an unconquerable coastal battery)

    *^)
     
  8. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    I could not agree more with you on Manhattan. Same goes with Apollo. One player builds it; everyone else gets the benefit of being able to build a space ship as well. I have a good guess as why that is though. It was not programmer's secret agenda but rather poor design. Wonders can only be built by one civ. Had the benefits been exclusive all but one civ would forever be barred from making nukes or space exploration which would have created a significant game imbalance.
    (This is one of the things they fixed in Civ3.)

    Glad to see you are making progress on civ. But do not do this alone. There is only so much you can learn on your own. Join the rest of us in the game of the month.
     
  9. Ace

    Ace Emperor

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    A A is right about Apollo, it has to be an "all or nothing" wonder or all but one player is banned from the space race.

    As to the Manhattan Project, I believe the designers were trying to make it like the fabled "Pandora's Box", open it at your own peril! And in real life, that is what happened! Within 5 years of the US exploding one, the Soviets had the "bomb" and it was not long after that Red China entered the ranks, followed by the British and French, Indians, and, unofficially, the Israelis. Sooo, as in the real world, as in the game....

    Here is a thought: the real-life eras for the MP vs. Apollo were very different. MP was developed during a very hot war and proceeded with during the cold war, While, by the time the Apollo program was started, the world was a more "friendly" place and the "great powers" were co-operating in peaceful scientic stuff.
     
  10. mpescatori

    mpescatori Chieftain

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    Hi All Ardvan and Ace, your comments just gave me an idea on how to avoid anybody building the Manhattan Project... just edit the required tech to... whatever may be the very last tech advance statistically to be researched, and presto ! nobody will ever build it !

    Whereas I do acknowledge that soon after the US built their own "Bomb", the USSR folloowed suit, it is just as true that more or less the World is trying to get Iran (for one) NOT to build it, and would love N.Korea (for another) to dismantle it.

    Give a few decades and Brazil will be a superpower, and Zaire/Dem.Rep.Congo has all the natural resources it needs to be THE superpower of the 22nd century, if only they stopped their little tribal squabbles...

    Same applies to Apollo... one thing is to provide a Googlemaps-like view of the Earth (the map) another is to claim "everybody has got space technology" because it doesn't apply to the real world.

    It would be nice to allow... an alliance of nations to build the wonder in Consortium (i.e. at least TWO Nations must be allied in order to build it in one city with trade piling in from both CIVS, and then they could all compete for the space race...

    AND...

    What if you didn't belong in that consortium and couldn't cooperate ? Left out, no space tech ?

    Weeell... that's too bad, isn't it ? Looks like, if you want to win the game... it'll be a Bloodbath... harrharrharr...
     
  11. mpescatori

    mpescatori Chieftain

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    PS How can I play in a multiplayer game ?

    I have CIV2 Multiplayer Gold Edition but never figured out how to play multiplayer (i.e., two PCs linked peer-to-peer via network cable) nor much less over the internet.

    Any help would be greatly appreciated, I have never ever played against another human player...

    Even a PM would be most welcome, but PLEASE don't speak hi-tech, give it to me real slow and easy...
     
  12. Ace

    Ace Emperor

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    Keep in mind that "everybody" does not have space tech. In civ2 terms, only the "top" 7 civs are represented in any given game. All the rest of the real world civs are only included as "advanced tribes" or "nomads", and, Apollo does not automatically let all civs build spaceships. A given civ must discover/acquire the necessary techs before being allowed to build SS parts.

    All I remember about multplayer games is that you select multiplayer from the start menu and follow the instructions, and you need an IP address (or phone # for dial up) of your intended opponent. You, also, need to decide who is going to host the game and who is going to "join" the game. Oh, IIRC, there were some problems with "firewalls" sometimes blocking connections and preventing games. On one occasion, I could not join a game my opponent was trying to host, but, he was able to join a game I hosted.
     
  13. Marc73

    Marc73 Chieftain

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    Hi everyone! :) I play civ2 since release now but i only startet playing deity in the last few years. :p Playing my very first multiplayer game over lan vs a friend right now and i've got to say it's a totally different game against another human player.

    Many of the good things only really come into play now since the computer players (AI) playing intelligence is pretty low.

    So i want to urge you to try some multiplayer.^^ Really easy to set up though the games seem to take quite a while. Playing on a small map with just our two civilizations. Perhaps thats why it seems to drag somewhat since we have so much space to grow.^^

    Anyway...on topic...i think building Apollo seems to be a strategic Decision. If you think you have much more building power and perhaps can defend yourself good then you might rather try to start and win the space race then to fight. That comes at a price though since you build a wonder which essentially doesn't give you an advantage.

    I guess it also depends very much which technologies you research or get. I only today (and i'm somewhat embarassed about that since i play civ2 for something like 13-14 years now^^) learned that every tech you get makes the next tech need more research points to be discovered.oO So i guess a good player needs to plan his way through the tech tree very carefully or he makes important techs (or rather the techs he wants) to have a lot more expensive in terms of research points.

    So if a player researches more war technologies he probably would not think about building apollo while a player who perhaps only researches the most necessary war technologies (primarily the defensive ones) might make it his goal to get the technologies and building power (to win the space race after Apollo has been build) for a spaceship.

    Just my two cents as a noob.^^ :)
     
  14. Terrapin

    Terrapin Prince

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    Some notes:

    3b- it is impossible to be on a special and have any other specials in a city radius. Civ2 maps have the specials arranged so that you can have up to 4 specials in a city radius, but they will be at the corners of the radius. If you "sit" on one, the others will be out of range.

    3c- Never, ever, ever build the Great Library. The cost of researching techs is based, in part, on how many techs you have. This effect is re-doubled because the cost is also based on how far ahead you are (Further ahead means higher cost) so building the GL is more than just a waste of time. It actively slows your effort at getting techs you actually want by larding you down with whatever idiot stuff the ai is researching.

    3e If you are doing it right, by the time King Richards become available you will be 10-20 turns from making it obsolete.

    3h Bach's Cathedral does a bit more than boost Mike Chapel. Because the effects of Bach's are accounted for in the Wonders phase of the happiness, it is the only thing in the game which will reverse unhappiness due to units in-the-field under Republic and Democracy.

    3ii- Adam Smith's Trading Co. It pays the maintenance cost on any structure whose cost is 1g/turn. I like it. Some of the Build-units-not-buildings purists do not.

    Note that if you skip Temples in favor of coliseums you will not get the benefit of Adam Smith's Trading Co. Most of the Hall of Fame players never build coliseums.

    Women's Suffrage- indispensable (along with Bach's) for war in Democracy. Note that Mike's Chapel will have no effect whatsoever on unhappiness due to units-in-the-field. Its effects occur during the Buildings phase of the Unhappiness calculation.

    Cure for Cancer- Helps in late game to keep your cities celebrating. Note that because the number of chalices (units of luxury) which a city can use is capped at 2xCity Size, once you have enough cities to set off the extra unhappiness riot factor, your cities will stop celebrating every time they have an odd numbered population. After the Hanging Gardens expire, CfC will overcome this problem. So will Courthouses, but they need to be built in every city. If you have a more than about 5 cities, CfC is worthwhile, especially if you are going for high score.

    Overall, Monarchy should be your first priority, before Philosophy. The loss of production in despotism pretty much means that you can get to Phil just as fast, if not faster, by getting into Monarchy first. Also, small cities (which all your cities will be if you are producing a steady stream of settlers) do much, much better under Monarchy because they can each automatically support three units, regardless of size.

    Finally, the Super Science City- Your first or second city. Settle on the coast, hopefully with a whale in the city radius. Make sure it is all the way in the corner if there are blacked out spots nearby. They may be specials and you will want them if they would be in the city radius. Build no more than one settler here. Once you have Bronze Working, build the Colossus. Once you have the Colossus, build Copernicus' Observatory. (The Civilopedia is wrong. This Wonder doubles city science output.) Once you have Copernicus', build Shakespeare's Theater. Once you have Shakes, build Issac Newton's College. Naturally, there will be periods when you are waiting for the appropriate tech before you can build you next Wonder. Spend the time building a library, marketplace, university and a harbor in this city. Now you will have a city which produces 350% science and will never riot due to unhappiness. With Colossus, your trade in the city will be increased by one-third to one-half. Colossus will also increase the value of caravans delivered to and from this city.

    Speaking of caravans, they are, after settlers, the most important unit in the game. They pay you off in gold and an equal amount of science. Build them early and often. The payoffs are bigger for when delivered to foreign cities, more distant cities, cities on separate land masses and cities with marketplaces.

    Finally, the ship chain. If a ship carrying units enters a square containing another ship, the units may be transferred to the new ship and continue their voyage. Lather, rinse, repeat. If they were picked up in your city (rather than walking off the coast onto your ship), they will be able to land the same turn they start no matter how far they have to go.
     
  15. Quisani

    Quisani Gaming Person

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    Wow. I found Civ 2 for the PC in a thrift store years ago. I'm not much for the micromanaging, so I don't play it too often. A friend set me on this site... Thank you all for introducing ideas and concepts I'd've never considered on my own!
     
  16. Valka D'Ur

    Valka D'Ur Hosting Iron Pen in A&E Retired Moderator

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    That's what we're all here for - to learn from each other. :)

    Welcome to CFC! :goodjob:
     

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