Early Techs Balance

[Gazebo]

That's the easier approach, I'll give you that.

Sure, we can continue using hidden bonus resources as the default setting, and we can continue balancing with that in mind, but it will always feel wrong that bonus resources are unlocked later than luxuries (it's just so un-thematic), and thus I'll always find myself adjusting the settings. I'm sure there are a few others who would do the same.

It's not a matter of ease, it's a matter of the tech tree's 5-button limit (and no, this is a not a chance to ask me to expand that out). You either stick resources on 'open' spaces in the tech tree (somewhat haphazardly), or you shove more things off the back-end of the techs and into the civilopedia. Not a good situation. Bonus resources are few, but plentiful, and in most cases won't make or break your game if you have/do not have them where you thought you might. Luxuries are a whole different beast in that regard.

The fact that you dislike it is fine – that's why the option exists – but 'luxuries unlocked via tech' is not a viable default option for the reasons mentioned above. The small amount of 'discovery' offered by the bonus-resource-tech-unlock system is manageable.

So let's leave it at that. If someone wants to rewrite the SQL for luxury resources to have them unlock differently, that's fine, I'm happy to incorporate that change. But default setting balance needs to be built around bonus resource unlocks.

Anyways, back to the Wheel. Technically 'city connection' UAs don't need the Wheel anymore to work (I'll double check this, but I think this is so as of a version or two ago - need to update UA text).

We could move the Well to the Wheel, but that would leave Mining with only a resource reveal and an improvement. Could also get a little crazy and move the Village to the Wheel (as roads and Villages tend to go hand-in-hand), making that +1 Culture from the Village all the stronger as an early-game policy booster.

I personally think it is okay that the Wheel is rarely a 'first pick' first row tech, but that's just me.

G

 

[ExpiredReign]

I don't know which other thread this would fit into so I'll mention it here.
It is entirely possible to get a settler without researching it first. I sometimes delay Pottery and take Authority as my policy which means I can get a free settler before I can make one. That just feels a little odd to me. I'm not too sure if it's a problem or just me, but you never know till you ask.

 

[Gazebo]

I don't know which other thread this would fit into so I'll mention it here.
It is entirely possible to get a settler without researching it first. I sometimes delay Pottery and take Authority as my policy which means I can get a free settler before I can make one. That just feels a little odd to me. I'm not too sure if it's a problem or just me, but you never know till you ask.

It's by design.
G

 

[Atlas627]

Caravans being located there probably isn't exactly relevant, you're probably not going to be rushing them anyways (at least I don't)
As for tech-order I don't actually remember the last time I went Pottery as first tech, I usually try to get one of the techs that reveal resources first, Animal Husbandry usually, sometimes mining or trapping.

I find I almost always do better researching Pottery first and then building a settler while teching the most prominent reveal type. There are times when I don't want to do this, and they almost never involve the Wheel.

Okay, this I actually disagree with. I'm completely with you that the wheel is rarely a choice for the first tech, but you don't NEED pottery for it. There are plenty of strategies that doesn't rely on early settler-spam, some of them use chariots and some of them uses the Petra.

The ones that use Chariots require horses before the Wheel, and the ones that use Petra require a specific starting area and many other techs. Those are not reasons to research the Wheel first. In fact, you gain nothing from the Wheel except access to Trading. So again, the Wheel gives nothing without Pottery. And yes, I know access CAN be worthwhile on its own, but it is so incredibly rare that it is insufficient in this case.

Actually, most wonders let the AI develop their their production first, as you've stated you can't afford workers meaning you won't have any extra developed terrain when building any of the tier 2 wonders compared to the Stonehenge.

Do we play the same game? I can always get a tier 2 wonder if I try for it. I will always have a worker and some improved production tiles if I want to by that time. The worker is just too expensive to have ready for a Tier 1 wonder, especially since you haven't had the opportunity to research any of the improvement techs yet.

The AI are part of the game so naturally you have to count them. There are also ways to get early workers, either by stealing them, getting a gold-ruin or playing as carthage.

I will reiterate: this is about interesting decisions. That has nothing to do with the AI whatsoever.

It is still a powerful wonder. It being on the tech changes the value of that tech completely, you can't just disregard it because you never build it.

Yes, you can completely disregard it because you never build it. Because you never build it, it changes the value of the tech from 0 to 0.001, when all other techs have values ranging from 0.2 to 2. You nearly never have a reason to build it. That is not an interesting decision.

 

[Funak]

The ones that use Chariots require horses before the Wheel, and the ones that use Petra require a specific starting area and many other techs. Those are not reasons to research the Wheel first. In fact, you gain nothing from the Wheel except access to Trading. So again, the Wheel gives nothing without Pottery. And yes, I know access CAN be worthwhile on its own, but it is so incredibly rare that it is insufficient in this case.

Last time I checked Pottery was not needed to find horses.

Do we play the same game? I can always get a tier 2 wonder if I try for it. I will always have a worker and some improved production tiles if I want to by that time. The worker is just too expensive to have ready for a Tier 1 wonder, especially since you haven't had the opportunity to research any of the improvement techs yet.

I guess we aren't I have about the same success-rate when trying to build the Stonehenge and the Temple of Artemis.

Yes, you can completely disregard it because you never build it. Because you never build it, it changes the value of the tech from 0 to 0.001, when all other techs have values ranging from 0.2 to 2. You nearly never have a reason to build it. That is not an interesting decision.

I build it, other players build it, the AI builds it. You can't disregard the wonder because of your personal opinion.

 

[Atlas627]

Last time I checked Pottery was not needed to find horses.

I was talking about Animal Husbandry. It means that there is still no reason to research the Wheel first.

I guess we aren't I have about the same success-rate when trying to build the Stonehenge and the Temple of Artemis.

Really?! I find that very surprising.

I build it, other players build it, the AI builds it. You can't disregard the wonder because of your personal opinion.

Uh, yes, yes I can. The whole point of the discussion is to find out if its just my personal opinion or if my opinion is experienced elsewhere. So far I have at least found out that I agree with the OP on this matter, and I believe you are the only person who has disagreed. This makes you the person who is giving it value others do not see.

 

[Gazebo]

I was talking about Animal Husbandry. It means that there is still no reason to research the Wheel first.



Really?! I find that very surprising.



Uh, yes, yes I can. The whole point of the discussion is to find out if its just my personal opinion or if my opinion is experienced elsewhere. So far I have at least found out that I agree with the OP on this matter, and I believe you are the only person who has disagreed. This makes you the person who is giving it value others do not see.

Reiterating this as an option:

Anyways, back to the Wheel. Technically 'city connection' UAs don't need the Wheel anymore to work (I'll double check this, but I think this is so as of a version or two ago - need to update UA text).

We could move the Well to the Wheel, but that would leave Mining with only a resource reveal and an improvement. Could also get a little crazy and move the Village to the Wheel (as roads and Villages tend to go hand-in-hand), making that +1 Culture from the Village all the stronger as an early-game policy booster.

G

 

[Atlas627]

Reiterating this as an option:



G

Hmm, I think the village on the Wheel is too crazy, and I think the Well to the Wheel would make Mining too weak to care about unless you already see tons of mining resources, which is a no-brainer at that point.

What about Granary or Caravans to the Wheel? Pottery would still have the other and Settlers, which are both still very good. Pottery would become less of a no-brainer and the Wheel would have a bigger niche.

 

[phantomaxl1207]

Yes to Caravans and the TR to the Wheel or Well. Mining Resources are great, so many. No to moving Granary from Pottery.

 

[Funak]

I was talking about Animal Husbandry. It means that there is still no reason to research the Wheel first.

Well, there is a big difference between 'no reason to research Wheel first' and 'the Wheel gives nothing without Pottery', I agree with the first statement and I don't agree with the second.

This makes you the person who is giving it value others do not see.

I said it was fine and G said it was fine, that's 2 people .
I know two is not exactly a big number, but it's not like you had a huge collection of followers either, this thread is mostly us bickering for 2 pages.

 

[Gazebo]

We could move the monument to the Wheel...

In Civ4, the monument was unlocked in the first line of techs, you know.

G

 

[Funak]

We could move the monument to the Wheel...

In Civ4, the monument was unlocked in the first line of techs, you know.

And leave the shrine at Agriculture? I thought the idea of moving it there was to give more opening choices.

 

[Atlas627]

Well, there is a big difference between 'no reason to research Wheel first' and 'the Wheel gives nothing without Pottery', I agree with the first statement and I don't agree with the second.

The part you had quoted when responding with this had both statements.

I said it was fine and G said it was fine, that's 2 people .
I know two is not exactly a big number, but it's not like you had a huge collection of followers either, this thread is mostly us bickering for 2 pages.

Did G say he thought it was fine? I thought he said he didn't have an opinion.

We could move the monument to the Wheel...

In Civ4, the monument was unlocked in the first line of techs, you know.

G

I actually quite like that idea, though if the cost of the warrior isn't reduced to match the scout then that's one less option for first/second build.

 

[Gazebo]

The part you had quoted when responding with this had both statements.



Did G say he thought it was fine? I thought he said he didn't have an opinion.



I actually quite like that idea, though if the cost of the warrior isn't reduced to match the scout then that's one less option for first/second build.

That'd make sense to me - make warrior cheaper, move monument. Let's think on it.

G

 

[supracseduch]

I don't know which other thread this would fit into so I'll mention it here.
It is entirely possible to get a settler without researching it first. I sometimes delay Pottery and take Authority as my policy which means I can get a free settler before I can make one. That just feels a little odd to me. I'm not too sure if it's a problem or just me, but you never know till you ask.

Then you should be bothered by your starting settler too.

Indeed, I don't understand why the Settler had to be moved to a particular tech at all. If it's because the AI expands like crazy, then a cost increase and flavor adjustment can fix that. I checked the tech flavors and found that Pottery had a value of 25 for FLAVOR_EXPANSION, which is why the AI tends to research it first (you can see this from the fact that Pottery's cost becomes lower than the rest of its fellow column 1 techs as you meet other civilizations). If the goal was to prevent super aggressive early expansions, then increase the Settler's cost to 100 (from 84). Being able to secure a natural wonder early should cost at least that much (considering that the cheapest world wonder costs 150 production, and Mt. Sinai/Sri Pada/Uluru are about as good as the Stonehenge). Remove the Settler from Pottery and suddenly, it's not overpowered. It becomes just as good as Animal Husbandry and Trapping. The Settler itself is still a very good unit so I'm suggesting the cost adjustment.

Buuuut, if the Settler were to remain unchanged, then something has to be taken away from Pottery. And it shouldn't be the Granary. For thematic reasons. (We should strive for balance without sacrificing the theme.)

That'd make sense to me - make warrior cheaper, move monument. Let's think on it.

G

Make Worker cheaper while we're at it. Adds relative value to the Techs that unlock tile improvements. Though I have my own misgivings about moving the Monument.

 

[Bromar1]

I like the idea of moving the village to the wheel. It could be balanced by lowering its base yields until you actually research currency.

 

[Funak]

That'd make sense to me - make warrior cheaper, move monument. Let's think on it.

Make Worker cheaper while we're at it. Adds relative value to the Techs that unlock tile improvements. Though I have my own misgivings about moving the Monument.

I have no problem with the slightly cheaper warrior(pathfinder should probably be as expensive as a scout as well) but I don't really see a point in making the worker cheaper. The worker is a super-powerful unit and should totally be of comparable cost to a settler.

I'm honestly not a fan of moving the monument, feels weird. Number of choices available from the start are already pretty low without removing another building from it.

I like the idea of moving the village to the wheel. It could be balanced by lowering its base yields until you actually research currency.

Probably a better solution than moving the monument at least.

 

[supracseduch]

I agree that Scouts should be as expensive as Warriors, but why not just make the Scout more expensive rather than reducing the Warrior's cost? The Scout costs 40 right now, and the Warrior 50, and the Archer 60. Do you want the Archer to become 50% more expensive than the Warrior?

And the Worker's cost should also be reduced to match the Shrine and Monument. Why? Because all of them pay off in the longterm, but one of them is not a viable starting production option. At least if you reduce the Worker's cost, Worker-first strategies become viable (and nowhere close to being overpowered). You can produce a Worker to immediately make use of the tile improvement you unlock with your first tech, if it's not Pottery. Like I said, the relative values of the other techs increase.

 

[Funak]

I agree that Scouts should be as expensive as Warriors, but why not just make the Scout more expensive rather than reducing the Warrior's cost? The Scout costs 40 right now, and the Warrior 50, and the Archer 60. Do you want the Archer to become 50% more expensive than the Warrior?

Sure, why not? Warrior is Tier 0, Archer is tier 1, having the archer 50% more expensive than the warrior would be fine.
I'm not really opposed to raising the price on the scout, but the point you're bringing up is nowhere close to being a deal-breaker.

And the Worker's cost should also be reduced to match the Shrine and Monument. Why? Because all of them pay off in the longterm, but one of them is not a viable starting production option.

I've seen people go scout into warrior, and I've tried it myself, I really don't think it is as bad as you guys make it out to be. I mean I spend my free 200 gold when playing as Carthage on a worker pretty much every time (scout + invested monument is pretty tempting however).
The worker-question has been brought up before by the way and the only real way to have cheaper workers is to make them start out weaker than they currently are and have them get upgrades (like settler into Pioneer) spread out in the tech-tree, but that seems like a lot of work.

 

[supracseduch]

Sure, why not? Warrior is Tier 0, Archer is tier 1, having the archer 50% more expensive than the warrior would be fine.
I'm not really opposed to raising the price on the scout, but the point you're bringing up is nowhere close to being a deal-breaker.

It's not a deal breaker, it's just to avoid even worse balance issues. Warriors beat Archers one on one. Even two on two. Also, you're gonna prefer Warriors early on because you want them for securing Barb camps. You don't want another civ or a city-state to steal the camp after you've bombarded it consecutively. A solo Warrior can also casually steal camps from others. A solo archer cannot. And your units will typically go solo during the exploration phase. Also, making the archer much more expensive than the warrior reduces Trapping's relative value.

I've seen people go scout into warrior, and I've tried it myself, I really don't think it is as bad as you guys make it out to be. I mean I spend my free 200 gold when playing as Carthage on a worker pretty much every time (scout + invested monument is pretty tempting however).
The worker-question has been brought up before by the way and the only real way to have cheaper workers is to make them start out weaker than they currently are and have them get upgrades (like settler into Pioneer) spread out in the tech-tree, but that seems like a lot of work.

What are you talking about? Of course scout into warrior works. Did you mean scout into worker? That also works. The point is that Scout first always works, while Worker first is suboptimal. At least if the Worker were cheaper, you finish building it just in time for you finish your first tech. So Trapping+Worker first becomes viable.

Edit: I feel I should elaborate a bit further. Of course, it's not actually that bad. Like I said at the start, the concerns I mentioned in this thread are just gripes, which by definition are just minor grievances. You could say that the game is still balanced in the sense that everyone has an equal chance of winning. Everyone can just research Pottery first if they value it that much. Everyone can just delay The Wheel for a bit if it's really that terrible. Everyone can just build a Scout first, if Goody Huts are too good to pass up. The game is still balanced in such a state. But I'm sure you already understand what I'm saying. We can make the early game more interesting than that.