Early Techs Balance

[Gazebo]

Current change, to keep things as simple as possible, is going to be monument/stele to Wheel, Warrior/Scout at 45 production.

G

 

[Funak]

Current change, to keep things as simple as possible, is going to be monument/stele to Wheel, Warrior/Scout at 45 production.

I really still don't understand the need for this. I mean even if it was your intention to ruin early-game choices moving either the worker or the shrine there would make more sense. I mean you could even move the caravan/trade-route there as suggested earlier, I don't see why caravan/trade-route would matter at all but clearly it was a point in pottery's favor.

 

[Gazebo]

I really still don't understand the need for this. I mean even if it was your intention to ruin early-game choices moving either the worker or the shrine there would make more sense. I mean you could even move the caravan/trade-route there as suggested earlier, I don't see why caravan/trade-route would matter at all but clearly it was a point in pottery's favor.

Lol.

G

 

[Kolaris]

Just going to weigh in that on Marathon, free buildings is definitely an important part of early game wonders. I would try getting a Monument Pyramids if I didn't know the AI liked it and will always beat me to it.

Part of why I don't want Artemis even if I can get it since the free Granary is always a moot point.

Not sure about Monument to Wheel. I always go Shrine first, but needing to get Wheel as a 2nd or 3rd tech is going to be tricky to adapt to.

 

[supracseduch]

Just going to weigh in that on Marathon, free buildings is definitely an important part of early game wonders. I would try getting a Monument Pyramids if I didn't know the AI liked it and will always beat me to it.

Part of why I don't want Artemis even if I can get it since the free Granary is always a moot point.

Not sure about Monument to Wheel. I always go Shrine first, but needing to get Wheel as a 2nd or 3rd tech is going to be tricky to adapt to.

Sell the Granary just before completing the Temple of Artemis.

The Monument-Pyramids suggestion would actually increase your likelihood of getting it or the Stonehenge, so it'd become more viable for the human player to go for it. You wouldn't need to be a specific civ to do so.

Anyway, I'm afraid the upcoming change to the Monument will be met with negative feedback. If we're really going through with that, we need to slightly buff the Monument. Although really, you might wanna reconsider it, G. I find many of the previous suggestions in this thread better, albeit less simple.

 

[Gazebo]

Sell the Granary just before completing the Temple of Artemis.

The Monument-Pyramids suggestion would actually increase your likelihood of getting it or the Stonehenge, so it'd become more viable for the human player to go for it. You wouldn't need to be a specific civ to do so.

Anyway, I'm afraid the upcoming change to the Monument will be met with negative feedback. If we're really going through with that, we need to slightly buff the Monument. Although really, you might wanna reconsider it, G. I find many of the previous suggestions in this thread better, albeit less simple.

Majority of people in thread supported the monument move (some wanted well moved as well, but I didn't see that as necessary).

Keep in mind there's precedent for having the first culture building a tech in (civ 4 did it that way), and it also makes the early game 'do I want to expand, grow, gain policies, or get a pantheon' a little more urgent.

G

 

[Funak]

Lol.

I'm definitely not joking, the idea is horrible.

 

[Kolaris]

Sell the Granary just before completing the Temple of Artemis.

Wow I...I can't believe I haven't been doing this.

All those Armories I could have sold before the Red Fort, or Castles before Himeji Castle.

 

[Atlas627]

I'm definitely not joking, the idea is horrible.

Regardless, you're being a jerk.

 

[supracseduch]

Wow I...I can't believe I haven't been doing this.

All those Armories I could have sold before the Red Fort, or Castles before Himeji Castle.

That's okay. Because if you get beaten to the wonder 1 turn before completing it, the experience would've been doubly frustrating for you. I know it's unlikely but it happens.

 

[Funak]

Majority of people in thread supported the monument move (some wanted well moved as well, but I didn't see that as necessary).

Keep in mind there's precedent for having the first culture building a tech in (civ 4 did it that way), and it also makes the early game 'do I want to expand, grow, gain policies, or get a pantheon' a little more urgent.

I know GamenKG sounds like he is a majority, but you got 2 people supporting the move and 2 people opposed, that's hardly a majority.

I'd be saddened if either Monument or Shrine gets moved. How about the Water Mill? Nerf it to tier 1 status, then move it back? Same goes for Floating Gardens.

Moving the Monument to the Wheel makes some thematic sense, isn't much of a loss for first build, and does help with first tech choices. And if the Warrior becomes a viable first/second build option because its cheaper, then we will have the same number of choices as before.

What might make even more thematic sense is Monument to Mining and Well to Wheel.

I'm with you. Both changes and 45 hammers warrior would be great.

 

[pandasnail]

I wouldn't call it 'horrible' certainly, but I don't understand moving the Monument. If I want to get right into culture to get the authority opener while there are still a lot of camps, I feel like I should be able to make that choice. If I want the Progress opener for the first few pop growths, I feel like I should be able to choose that. Maybe these are 'wrong' choices, but I feel like they should be makeable choices.

I'm about to try my first Immortal game, and unless I pick certain civs, there's no way I'm getting a religion most like. So why waste my turns on a Shrine. Even taking Wheel first, that's a ton of turns to build nothing but workers I may not need yet. I play marathon yes, but the turns on Standard count three times as much in a sense, yeah? I think, honestly never played Standard speed, sorry if that's an oversimplification. And if I think I can found, I'll go shrine-worker maybe 100% of the time. I guess scouts first for standard, on marathon I find the ruins are gone before I can build one, so I wait awhile on exploring most of the time. So I guess one more choice for standard, but still one less choice than makes sense to me personally.

 

[Funak]

I wouldn't call it 'horrible' certainly, but I don't understand moving the Monument. If I want to get right into culture to get the authority opener while there are still a lot of camps, I feel like I should be able to make that choice. If I want the Progress opener for the first few pop growths, I feel like I should be able to choose that. Maybe these are 'wrong' choices, but I feel like they should be makeable choices.

Exactly, this is just limiting choice for no good reason at all.
And now it's 2 supporting 3 opposed

 

[pandasnail]

One more thought

If I am going for Stonehenge, what do I build first? Just workers? Since Stonehenge takes a ton of turns, it's gonna be a real long time before I start generating culture. Even moreso if I build a Settler to get my second city down in a good spot. Stonehenge already puts its builder behind the Settler game, without another necessary building coming after.

Ultimately, I agree with well, you, Gazebo, way back on page one, when you said this:

First line techs of ancient era are intentionally scattershot in immediate value as a consequence of the techs they unlock. Some, like the wheel, have value because of what they unlock (trade specifically). Others, like Pottery, have intrinsic value, whereas their tech unlock is a bit more situational.

I see no problem with it working this way.

 

[Gazebo]

One more thought

If I am going for Stonehenge, what do I build first? Just workers? Since Stonehenge takes a ton of turns, it's gonna be a real long time before I start generating culture. Even moreso if I build a Settler to get my second city down in a good spot. Stonehenge already puts its builder behind the Settler game, without another necessary building coming after.

Ultimately, I agree with well, you, Gazebo, way back on page one, when you said this:

I agree with myself as well.

The most 'agreeable' change was moving the monument, which is what I wanted to discuss. People are split on the issue, so there's no reason for me to move it. I am adjusting scout/warrior cost a bit to help make that choice a little more interesting, but otherwise line 1 techs are staying the same.

G

 

[Gamewizard]

How about moving scout to The Wheel instead of monument? The whole problem with Pottery was the power of building an early settler, but a settler isn't that great when you have barely revealed the land around the capital.

 

[Funak]

How about moving scout to The Wheel instead of monument? The whole problem with Pottery was the power of building an early settler, but a settler isn't that great when you have barely revealed the land around the capital.

I'm actually not sure I understand your point at all, I think it was something along the like "You never want to research the Wheel first", right?

Well this is how I see the first tier of techs and if I would research them as a first tech:

Trapping
Unlocks archer - Useful, but hardly necessary, especially if warriors gets cheaper.
Unlocks camp bonus resources and improvement. - Situationally useful, camp resources are fairly rare.

Leads to Fishing - situational and hardly worth rushing
Leads to Military Theory - good tech actually, powerful early-game wonder.

Animal Husbandry
Unlocks Pasture resources and Improvement - Usually useful, Pasture resources are fairly common (no related luxury however, so it's always a gamble)

Leads to Military Theory - good tech actually, powerful early-game wonder.
Leads to Trade - Situationally really good, markets are awesome, and Petra is usually a good build if you can build it.

Pottery
Unlocks Settler - Useful, but you're not going to start a settler before you hit 3 or 4 pop in your capital anyways (and probably finish a shrine/monument and a scout)
Unlocks traderoute slot and caravan - Not really useful at all, I at least will not spend the hammers necessary to get trade-routes this early.
Unlocks Granary - Actually pretty useful, depending on starting location getting this up could take priority over a monument, but most often not.

Leads to Calendar - Situational but really powerful, Pyramids are pretty sweet, even if it is rare to get them, forest-starts and plantation-starts wants this.
Leads to Construction - Decent wonder, quarry resources are rare however.

Mining
Reveals stone - really situational
Unlocks Mine - decent enough, you're unlikely to have a worker at this point however.

Leads to Construction - Decent wonder, quarry resources are rare however.
Leads to Bronzeworking - Good, reveals a strong fairly common production and strategic resource, Unlocks a strong unit a good wonder and the ability to cut down forests.

The Wheel
Unlocks Roads - decent enough, you're unlikely to have a worker at this point however.
Unlocks Chariot Archer - Situational, really good for Egypt, not so much for others.
Unlocks Stonehenge - Situational, if you got a good ruin and/or have a few decent tiles to work this thing pretty much guarantees a religion (as all wonders it is even more useful the lower the number of players in the game). Pretty much a guaranteed build as Venice.

Leads to Calendar - Situational but really powerful, Pyramids are pretty sweet, even if it is rare to get them, forest-starts and plantation-starts wants this.
Leads to Trade - Situationally really good, markets are awesome, and Petra is usually a good build if you can build it.



Okay, as you can probably not see from that wall of text, yes the Wheel is pretty damn situational, but so are actually all of the starting-techs. Wheel might not look like much, but roads are essential and both the techs unlocked by the wheel are great.

Sure I don't see myself going for wheel as a first tech unless I'm going to try for the Stonehenge, but I see it in my first 3 techs pretty often actually. Imho first 3 techs is probably a better way to judge the strength of a tech.

 

[Gamewizard]

I agree with the others that The Wheel is almost always the last tech I take out of the first column. I disagree with the person saying Pottery is always the first choice because of the settler unlock, but that's because I like to grow my cap to 4 or 5 pop before building one.

I know I almost always build a scout first, so moving something that strong to the weakest first column tech seems like a good idea, as it will shake up both my initial build order and teaching order.

 

[Funak]

I agree with the others that The Wheel is almost always the last tech I take out of the first column. I disagree with the person saying Pottery is always the first choice because of the settler unlock, but that's because I like to grow my cap to 4 or 5 pop before building one.

I'm sorry, I was going to respond to that other guy, but got your names mixed up .

I know I almost always build a scout first, so moving something that strong to the weakest first column tech seems like a good idea, as it will shake up both my initial build order and teaching order.

The problem I see with actually moving the scout is that the AI start with tons of scouting-units, so you're pretty much forced to build early scouts to get any ruins/CS discoverybonuses, moving the scout to wheel would pretty much only result in you getting no ruins at all.
I guess if the AI was made not to get any initial scouts, this could be totally valid.

 

[Funak]

Looking at code, there aren't any AI exclusions or special behaviors that I can see thus far.

Here we go again!

Okay, since I time and time again have to show people that I'm not crazy, here is some proof, from the latest patch.

And no I did not gift them the unit to make myself look good, that would be stupid.
They took it from a barb which took it from me and it did not turn into a worker.