Early trades...

[ProphetMaster]

I just started playing Beyond Earth (after years of Civ4). I have my first alliance and see that she will trade science for energy. She wants half my energy per turn for 2 science. Is that a bad deal? If so, what would a good deal look like? Are there some general guidelines for these energy/science trades early in the game? Thanks.

 

[Xenotitan]

That depends what your energy per turn is. If it is 2 energy per turn, that's a great deal. If it is 100 energy per turn, that's a terrible deal.

 

[ProphetMaster]

That depends what your energy per turn is. If it is 2 energy per turn, that's a great deal. If it is 100 energy per turn, that's a terrible deal.

Okay, so here are the details....

She has 212 energy, 5 energy per turn, 11 science per turn.

I have 159 energy, 13 energy per turn, 19 science per turn.

She wants 17 energy and 7 energy per turn for 25 turns. I get from her 2 science per turn for 25 turns. In general, how do you evaluate these science/energy proposals? I have no idea (except in the extreme examples such as you suggested). Thanks.

 

[Gamewizard]

I try to think of it in terms of tile outputs. Would you rather have a tile that gives 1 science or a tile that gives 4 energy? I think I would rather have the energy.

However, if the AI you are trading with is broke and you have excess resources that you would want to sell them, you could trade your energy for the science, and later get the energy back via your resources. But then again, you could have traded the resources for the science in the first place.

IMO, trading for the AI's science per turn is a waste of time as there are better ways to get more science.

 

[Mutineer]

it is a bad deal. example, you can get mach better conversion energy into science using academies even taking in account opportunity cost. In your case it is very early, so if you realluy want more science you can send trader from yuor new city to her capital for more and use your energy to buy that trader.

 

[ProphetMaster]

I try to think of it in terms of tile outputs. Would you rather have a tile that gives 1 science or a tile that gives 4 energy? I think I would rather have the energy.

However, if the AI you are trading with is broke and you have excess resources that you would want to sell them, you could trade your energy for the science, and later get the energy back via your resources. But then again, you could have traded the resources for the science in the first place.

IMO, trading for the AI's science per turn is a waste of time as there are better ways to get more science.

The only tradable resources I see on the trading menu are "strategic resources" which require techs to create, which I don't have yet at the early stage of the game, and she doesn't have much use for them at this early stage, because she doesn't have the ability yet to build the units that require them. Right?

I have already built all the early buildings, virtues, etc. that increase my science. I have enough surplus energy now to trade her to get a little more boost to my science, but I do not know what would be a good price.

 

[Mutineer]

The only tradable resources I see on the trading menu are "strategic resources" which require techs to create, which I don't have yet at the early stage of the game, and she doesn't have much use for them at this early stage, because she doesn't have the ability yet to build the units that require them. Right?

I have already built all the early buildings, virtues, etc. that increase my science. I have enough surplus energy now to trade her to get a little more boost to my science, but I do not know what would be a good price.

Aiu tend to price science very high, so generally it is not a good idea, expanding wll give you more science faster and cheaper.

 

[ProphetMaster]

it is a bad deal. example, you can get mach better conversion energy into science using academies even taking in account opportunity cost. In your case it is very early, so if you realluy want more science you can send trader from yuor new city to her capital for more and use your energy to buy that trader.

That option does not appear on my trading menu. I can only trade with my own outpost or with a station. Does that mean that she has not yet built a trade depot in her capital yet? I'm just learning the game, so I don't know.

Are you saying trading for science is a bad idea in all circumstances?

 

[Mutineer]

basically yes, trade for sci is not a good idea almost always.

If you can not trade with her then one is true:
1) you did not discover way to her cities.
2) way is blocked by miasma.

Different between civ5 and this game that you need to know way before establishing trade route.

 

[Xenotitan]

There has to be a clear path revealed between your city and the city you want to trade with. Fog of war is okay but you have to have seen a tile before to travel through it. Miasma also blocks trade units.

 

[ProphetMaster]

basically yes, trade for sci is not a good idea almost always.

If you can not trade with her then one is true:
1) you did not discover way to her cities.
2) way is blocked by miasma.

Different between civ5 and this game that you need to know way before establishing trade route.

Ah, that explains it. She is on a different continent, and so I need to send an explorer or something over there.

I have the alien ecology tech, so I guess that means I can screw up another colony's trading by putting misama on his trade route. Cool.

 

[Xenotitan]

If you start creating miasma near another civ's lands they'll likely ask you to stop. If you don't stop it'll lead to severe diplomatic penalties so you better have an army ready. But if you wanted to war you could just mess up their trade routes with your military by plundering them.

Also anything that grants a civ miasma immunity will let their trade routes go through miasma.

 

[ProphetMaster]

If you start creating miasma near another civ's lands they'll likely ask you to stop. If you don't stop it'll lead to severe diplomatic penalties so you better have an army ready. But if you wanted to war you could just mess up their trade routes with your military by plundering them.

Also anything that grants a civ miasma immunity will let their trade routes go through miasma.

I see. That's another difference between this game and Civ4. In Civ4, if somebody built roads outside his cultural borders in the early game, I would put a unit there and cut the road as fast as his workers could repair it. There was no diplomatic penalty.

 

[Xenotitan]

You might be able to do the road thing still.

 

[ProphetMaster]

You might be able to do the road thing still.

Thanks. I will try it. Roads to stations would be easy to cut with misasma. One worker could disable the station. No need to send military in there to blow it up. I am sure that the military approach would risk war.

I started a new game. I had a cooperative agreement with the Asian leader, and she agreed to trade one science for one energy. I'll take that deal all day.

 

[Ryika]

it is a bad deal. example, you can get much better conversion energy into science using academies even taking in account opportunity cost.

I'd be careful with that train of thought. Just because there is an opportunity to get science cheaper "somewhere in the game" doesn't mean the deal is bad by itself - after all, you'll not even HAVE academies in the early game. As long as you're not in a direct either-or-situation (using your gold to get academies running OR trading the gold for science) there are a lot of factors that you have to consider and just thinking about the "price" of something will not tell you the whole story. If you're beelining for an early wonder for example, trading away gold for science can be a good idea if you happen to start in a gold-heavy area, even if it's not a "great deal". Just as getting academies AND trading away surplus-gold can be viable to squeeze out some additional beakers and get to the end faster.

 

[ProphetMaster]

I'd be careful with that train of thought. Just because there is an opportunity to get science cheaper "somewhere in the game" doesn't mean the deal is bad by itself - after all, you'll not even HAVE academies in the early game. As long as you're not in a direct either-or-situation (using your gold to get academies running OR trading the gold for science) there are a lot of factors that you have to consider and just thinking about the "price" of something will not tell you the whole story. If you're beelining for an early wonder for example, trading away gold for science can be a good idea if you happen to start in a gold-heavy area, even if it's not a "great deal". Just as getting academies AND trading away surplus-gold can be viable to squeeze out some additional beakers and get to the end faster.

I am just learning the game, but my impression is that these suckers won't give you a trade worth a damn even when they are "Friendly" and have an "Alliance" with you. Are there ANY other useful trade options in the early game? I am having a hard time finding one, if you guys say trading energy for science is generally no good. What else is there? I have the feeling that the only use of the trade screen will be to trade strategic resources with colonies with different affinity than me.

This game is quite a contrast to Civ4 where trading is a big help to progress. Or am I missing some things?

 

[Mutineer]

I am just learning the game, but my impression is that these suckers won't give you a trade worth a damn even when they are "Friendly" and have an "Alliance" with you. Are there ANY other useful trade options in the early game? I am having a hard time finding one, if you guys say trading energy for science is generally no good. What else is there? I have the feeling that the only use of the trade screen will be to trade strategic resources with colonies with different affinity than me.

This game is quite a contrast to Civ4 where trading is a big help to progress. Or am I missing some things?

Actially there you have follow good options:

1) you can borrow energy for energy/turn and rush buy settlers or trade units. Trade units return is still very good, practically pay of there cost in just few turns and have trade routes available the moment you finish depot in new city very good.

Trade away oil and titanium for energy, same reason. Oil and titanium tech come every early and I tend to research them as second tech after pioneering. you will get oil tech before your settler finish and you know where to put your second and third cities. Improve/sell and buy trade units for your new cities. This trick will greatly speed up your development.

 

[Mesix]

I would take the trade. Like every other Civ game, BE is often more about researching faster than anything else. As long as Energy and Health are positive, you should try to maximize research any way you can. This early in the game, that +2 research is like a 10% bonus for you and a 20% penalty for her. I try to trade research away from the top 2-3 civs in my games to further my lead and keep them behind.

it is a bad deal. example, you can get mach better conversion energy into science using academies even taking in account opportunity cost. In your case it is very early, so if you realluy want more science you can send trader from yuor new city to her capital for more and use your energy to buy that trader.

This early in the game, he doesn't have access to academies. He may not have any trade routes available yet either. This is a trade which will garner an early tech lead which will set the pace for the rest of the game.

 

[ProphetMaster]

I would take the trade. Like every other Civ game, BE is often more about researching faster than anything else. As long as Energy and Health are positive, you should try to maximize research any way you can. This early in the game, that +2 research is like a 10% bonus for you and a 20% penalty for her. I try to trade research away from the top 2-3 civs in my games to further my lead and keep them behind.



This early in the game, he doesn't have access to academies. He may not have any trade routes available yet either. This is a trade which will garner an early tech lead which will set the pace for the rest of the game.

Thank you. I am just getting into this game, but I figured that it would give me about double her science rate, which is worth the surplus energy I had. The logic of this game seems to be that the winner is whoever can tech up the Affinity ladder fastest.