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early wars - 1st 100 turns

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by R0gue, Aug 16, 2010.

  1. R0gue

    R0gue Noble

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    I have been following this forum for some time. There are a few topics about wars. My query is, I build my second city once my capital turns 3 in size. I settle that city, to my knowledge on a reasonable tile depending on what I will specialise that city. I then start spawning hopefully bronze troops. (I proberly do about x5 axeman maybe a few chariots if I have the horses.) by the time I have an army, the civ I want to wipe out has x4 cities. so the army maybe good to wipe out 2 of the 4. by this time I do not have the army to take out the last 2 cities, because the AI spawn so many troops (which looks like more that what the AI cities have in size.) I then go peace with them by the time I have built up the army again to finish the AI off they have another 4 cities.

    Difficulty is only prince. the topics I have read, what the experiance civ players have done. They wipe the civs out with little effort.

    What am I doing wrong.

    How would you take out the 1st 2 cities warly on. This is a save you can experiment on. Please show screenshot as you take out the 2 closest civs. The american/mayans are the closest to you.
     

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  2. Jerrymander

    Jerrymander Epistemologist

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    Not enough troops. Five axemen are enough for one city. If you want to kill the AI, you'll need at least three axes for every enemy unit. So, probably around 15 - 20 if the AI has four cities.

    Alternatively, attack earlier before the AI has a chance to build as many cities.
     
  3. Amao

    Amao King

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    Early war requires dedication (worker chopping, pop rushing, etc), and scarification on other fronts (such as wonder, teches, and other immediate goals). Also, you simply can't take all the cities, the maintenance fee will kill you. Just leave the best and then turtle up and build up your empire once you kill a neighbor or two. Grow your economy to Currency/CoL/Civil Service is the key to continuous expansion.

    On the other hand, if you spend your first 100 turns in building up your economy (around 5-6 cities with +100 beakers at 100% science) and survive that without AI declaring on you, you are pretty much winning the game already.
     
  4. itg

    itg Warlord

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    I thought I'd give it a try, but your save bluescreened my computer. Have you updated to 3.19? Anyway, some observations from before the crash:

    Spoiler :
    With horses in the BFC, chariots are the way to go. Tech order (from my memory of the start) should be animal husbandry->mining->bronze working
     
  5. Amao

    Amao King

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    Spoiler :

    I'll try mining->bw->ah instead, and let worker start chopping another worker right after bw available.
     
  6. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    Rogue - There reaches a point when early rush is no longer an early rush. It appears by the number of AI cities that you may have started to late. So part of a rush is the mechanics that go into making it effective. A big part of it is what Amao alluded to about focusing specifically on the war engine. Try to use forest chops as the main driver and some minimal whipping (but try to keep your cap productive and growing). Also, try to stick to one unit type unless for some reason you need support units.

    Chariots are very effective in early rushing because of speed. There are strat article on chariot rushes in the sub-forum. Chariot rushes can be effective at almost all levels, but especially so below Monarch. In fact, if you pop horses in your Cap with AH - usually one of your first techs - and an AI spans within say 10 tiles, it is pretty much a given to rush them. If you pop horses such that you have to settle a new city it makes it a little trickier, but very much doable. Just make sure you settle the the second city with the horses in the first ring. If you get a stack of chariots out before the AI gets Archery, they are toast. With Archery it's just a matter of having enough chariots - at least 2 per Archer - more if protective. Once the AI has copper, chariots become less attractive. However, often AI will not start spamming spears until you DOW. If you can get to the copper/iron in the first turn to ransack it you should be in good shape.

    Another key is get a work to road to your target and look for optimal angles to hit the city center in the fewest turns.

    Lastly, if you rush, as mentioned, you should build enough units. Scouting plays a part in this. However, if for whatever reason, your rush stall, then sue for peace and build back up or stick with what you have. Also, once you exit this "early rush" zone, then it may be best to wait until cats to mount a war.

    Oh..back to the point about popping horses in the cap. If you have a good target, the eschew a settler for mass chariots. Your chariots are basically settling your next cities for you.
     
  7. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    If you want an optimized rush, you're going to have to have a good reason for whatever size your build the settler, and it isn't always 3.

    On prince you should be able to hit before they get more than 2, maybe 3 tops. But, on deity for example they'll have even more than 4 even if you're perfect.

    Just look up a guide on how to do it, for example vicawoo's horse archer rush thread or earlier stuff in the war academy etc.
     
  8. vicawoo

    vicawoo Chieftain

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    The most appropriate and thorough guide for this situation is the chariot rush guide, which can be applied to axes if you add a 3rd worker.
    I'm a little weary of people trying to figure out what size they expand, so here's my guidelines:
    it depends on the tiles of what you can grow to in your capital vs best 2+ tiles of the second city, usually without a monument.
    Example 1: At size 3 your best tile is a grassland mine, while your target second city has pigs/copper. Growing to size 3 means adding 2 yield (4 food/hammers - 2 food from pop cost)
    Expanding adds 7 yield (3 from city, 6-2 from pigs), and after growth, 11 yield (3 + 6-2 + 6-2 from copper).
    Conclusion: expand at size 2, if you can manage.
    Example 2: At size 3 your best tile is a plains cow, while your target second is un-irrigated rice/grassland hill. Growing to 3 gives you 4 yield (3 food+3 hammers - 2 food), expanding gives you 5 (3 from city, 2 from rice) and later 7 (3 from city, 2 from rice, 2 from mine).

    Now the fast settler itself is still technically better, but add in the considerations that you often don't have to wait to improve your 3rd resource, and growing is cheaper than building a settler.
    Conclusion: grow (maybe)

    The closest rule of generalized rule of thumb is expand when you run out of improvable special resources worth 5+ food/hammers in your capital. Or time your settler so you're always improving the best resources of your first two cities.

    Secondary consideration is how soon you can get your first warrior out to help with fogbusting in your capital.

    I'll think about demoing the save, but I really don't want to crash my computer, so can someone else be a victimvolunteer to try it?

    Edit: and on prince, the best way to rush if you get copper/horses in your capital is to build a chariot/axe as soon as possible without a barracks, run him into the enemy capital, and take out all the defenders 1 by 1 if they don't have archers.
     
  9. Amao

    Amao King

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    @vicawoo: volunteer Amao says the save appears OK.
     
  10. R0gue

    R0gue Noble

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    The bluescreen of death is actually a memory issue, I would have it checked out.
     
  11. vicawoo

    vicawoo Chieftain

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    Spoiler lots of pictures which will lag this thread like crazy :

    Go worker techs (animal husbandry), then bronze working for chopping. We could have chosen the wheel for a fast chariot rush, but we already have it and this is going to be a 2 city rush/



    Warrior while growing, of course. He serves a very important purpose: extra happiness for a size 5 capital. In lower food capitals, you might send him to scout instead or garrison your second city.



    Improve the pigs first, of course. It takes 4 turns, corn takes 5.



    Then corn, and horses next. Note without bronze working, we can't improve any tiles after size 3, so immediately after reaching size 3, we swap out the warrior in the queue for a settler.



    A good second city site: food+hammers. You don't want to waste money on a monument if possible, so non-creative want it in the initial 8 tiles. Since we're creative, we might as well place it to grab the stone.



    Do you want to revolt? Advanced tip: of course not! Why waste a turn of production if we're not going to whip? And even if we do want to whip, we will revolt at the last possible moment.



    My worker had an extra turn before the settler popped, so we roaded the hill to save worker turns for when we do want to start chariot production.



    New city, note there's copper, so technically 1S would be better, but why complicate things for now. Barracks first to grow, if connected we could try chariot first without a barracks, since our second city will be lagging behind our capital.



    We improve the hill while waiting for our creative border pop. For our non-creative civ, we'd improve the food first.



    Meanwhile back at the capital, we kept delaying the warrior, because we faced the same, we can't work improved tiles problem, and got a worker to improve those hills.



    We send our valuable overflow into the more important 3rd worker. We go 3 workers because we have to chop to mine every hill, and we have a long road to our second city. In other games, we could skip the 3rd worker for a chariot rush, while axe rushes we would still want him so we could road to the enemy.



    After the one turn of worker overflow, we swap back to the warrior. Our worker is chopping first vs straight up mining the hill. You don't want to chop into a warrior that often because overflow is capped at around 50% of the unit cost, so we'd be wasting hammers and getting the barracks too fast. But in this case, we chop first ...



    to drop it into the 3rd worker. And get exactly 60 hammers, perfect.



    What do workers do next? Mine. Improved tiles generate more hammers than chopping in the long run, so they are our priority.



    Barracks next. Note we haven't connected the road yet to the horses, since we're not producing chariots yet, and worker turns creating food/hammers are preferable to worker turns producing nothing.



    Border pops, food first. I want to point out that I'm not going to bother farming that corn for a rush. For rapid expansion, that food is useful. However, we will grow to happy cap in this city with pigs alone, and food does not produce hammers.



    Our mine is done, tough decisions abound. I could send both of them to mine the plains hill to get it done faster. Or I could road the horse, or I could split them up...
    I choose to road the horses with one and then send him to the far plains hill, and send the other to mine the plains hill to the right. I lose a few hammers from not getting the plains hill faster, but I save a worker turn. An imperfect decision.



    At our 2nd city, our pig is pastured, and as mentioned before, we will not improve the corn. He goes straight to improving the other hill.



    Reached size 5, and remember food does not create hammers (and whipping is inefficient without a granary). So we stop working one food tile so we can work all the good hammer tiles, even if they are unimproved. You could just do emphasize hammers with the governor of course.



    I forgot to mention tech paths. After worker techs, military techs, and the road, you want writing. Why? Because it's on the path to alphabet/aesthetics, but more importantly so you can scout their territory. It is very important to find their copper/horses/iron so you can raze it the first turn of war, finding windows when they leave their capital lightly defended... or deciding not to rush.



    After roading the horses, he starts on the other plains/hill. Note I had to road first because the barracks will complete before the hill gets mined, and I want to build chariots immediately after the barracks finishes.



    After barracks completes, we alt (continually) produce our attacker of choice.



    On a hill (bad) but only 1 warrior (good). It's not possible on higher levels, but we want to minimize the archer count on that hilled capital, so we should attack as soon as we're sure we can take it.



    After writing we got masonry because we could spare it before starting on alphabet. On higher difficulties we'd probably just skip masonry and just work a forested tile to save beakers. We get alphabet or aesthetics (if we think we can trade it for the AIs alphabet) so we can extort techs out of our victims, a very good followup to a rush.



    After mining the hill, we need to complete the road network to our second city before the barracks completes.



    But we're too slow by 1-2 turns. We build a garrison in the meantime for happiness.



    We still have overflow and no chariot capabilities, so we could just build extra warriors to finish off weak defenders/lure archers from cities (very good tactic). In this we dump hammers in the great wall until the chariot completes for failure gold.



    Road network finally completes.



    Our now unoccupied workers go to improve the stone/chop as much as possible to speed up the rush. In case of an axe rush, we would also be roading to our opponent, since 4 worker turns saves 1 move (accelerates our rush by 1 turn). In the case of chariots, 8 worker turns saves 1 move, but we could just chop 2 forests and get about 1 1/3 extra chariots. Slower difficulties, the more worker turns you need to road, but the slower you produce.



    The other 2 quarry, because improving is usually better than chopping. This close to the rush, you might get more out of just chopping though.






    3040 BC is starting to build the settler, so you can branch from that save to a 2 worker/1 city chariot rush
    Second save is the before the second city, I believe, so you can decide to go for a different second city, such as for an axe rush.
    Third save is right before attacking Washington. We would wait a little longer on higher difficulties for about 10-14 chariots.
     
  12. vicawoo

    vicawoo Chieftain

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    Spoiler killing time :






     
  13. nishant1911

    nishant1911 *hugs*

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    Spoiler lots of pictures which will lag this thread like crazy :


    if you want to whip ,why revolt at the last possible moment ?
    care to elaborate?
     
  14. Winth

    Winth Warlord

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    My hair would think that it's because:
    (1) the earlier you revolt, the more window of opportunity for the dreaded slave revolt event to appear
    (2) early hammers and commerce are the most important hammers and commerce, and revolting derives you from entire one turn of getting them, while you could get more Workers and Settlers or Chariots
    (3) in the end you might find yourself not wanting to revolt at all, and doing it at a later time, like mixing the revolt up with Hereditary Rule, for example
    (4) Slavery is medium upkeep

    Then again my hair is struggling with Emperor so I'm overlooking a ton of results probably
     
  15. huerfanista

    huerfanista Emperor

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    Persia and America dead by 1280BC:

    Spoiler :

    Settled in place, building a worker while researching AH (food techs are the most important thing early on, and that pig needs to be improved ASAP). AH shows horses in the BFC. Since Sumeria starts with wheel, no further techs are needed to produce chariots. All you need is a victim. :) The scouting warrior finds America while mining > BW are being researched (these are the logical next techs for improving the starting location, regardless of whether a rush is contemplated).

    After the first worker finishes a warrior is started next (for garrison duty in the capital). Worker improves wheat, pig, horses (in that order). Warrior finishes after city grows to size 3 and a 2nd worker is started. They road to the horses once the pasture is done and then move to chop and mine the hills. The first chop finishes a barracks, and then chariots are produced non-stop while the workers continue to chop/mine.

    The first chariot is sent to scout out america. I finish writing a couple of turns before the rest of the chariots arrive, so I get open borders with Washington and scout him out. He only has 2 warriors guarding his capital, so I attack with 3 chariots (and a 4th 1 turn behind) in 2080BC:


    I get totally screwed by the RNG and 2 of the chariots die to unpromoted warriors. :mad: Nonetheless, only 1 wounded warrior is left and he dies on the next turn:


    In 2000BC America is dead, at a cost of 2 chariots (which is ridiculously bad luck).

    Newly produced chariots have been scouting for another victim, and Persia is located. Open borders are obtained, and enemy forces and terrain are scouted. Persepolis is on flatland and has 2 unpromoted archers, Pasargadae is guarded by a single warrior, and an archer is escorting a settler to a new site in the SE. Facing unpromoted archers on flatland, I deem that 2 chariots per archer should be sifficient (he will whip another archer before I can attack). And so in 1600BC the assault on Persia is on:


    I only lose 2 chariots attacking 3 archers and Persepolis joins the Sumerian empire. Washington has been chopping out unpromoted chariots to help with the war effort, and these join the attack on Pasargadae in 1560BC:


    2 chariots are lost to an archer and warrior. The final Persian city is located on a hill and guarded by an archer. I wait until I have 4 chariots ready for the final assault, and in 1280BC I raze the final Persian city (too much jungle and I don't have IW yet):


    Note that once I had 2 mines up in Uruk I sent my 2 workers to start roading towards Washington. The road was completed before Washington came out of revolt, enabling trade route income between it and Uruk and giving it access to horses. These same workers started roading towards Persia once it was determined that they were the next victim. The 2 Persian cities that I kept were connected before they came out of revolt. All cities were then set to building libraries which, with a big chunk of conquest gold, will easily get me to alphabet currency, and CoL. There was no deviation to a pre-planned tech path to accommodate the rush, I simply teched the logical and necessary things needed to improve the starting location. Once it was determined that there were victims nearby, it was easy to transition into a war footing.
     
  16. v8_mark

    v8_mark Prince

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    vicawoo and huerfanista - excellent, great posts!
     
  17. itg

    itg Warlord

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    Yeah, in retrospect, it was just an unfortunate coincidence that made the save look like the problem. As far as I can tell, the bluescreens were the beginnings of some kind of catastrophic hardware failure. I can't even access the BIOS now. :sad:
     
  18. Tyrael

    Tyrael ALC Lurker

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    I would most always farm corn before any other resource except a quick copper/horse hookup. Why? Because you reach your happy cap faster, which allows you to work more tiles, and because you can efficiently convert food into hammers (contrary to what was posted) via the extremely powerful slavery civic.
     
  19. michmbk

    michmbk Emperor

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    It's prince - how about a warrior rush? Build 4-5 warriors and take nearest civ. Then use the extra land to destroy the other civ.
     
  20. vicawoo

    vicawoo Chieftain

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    Show me the numbers that prove that slavery has greater production, including the turns of unhappiness. Remember, no granary unless you purposefully build it, after which you must tell us how many turns it takes to recover the 60 hammers.

    In answer to a post further above, the one turn of lost production from anarchy will usually lower your production for the rush, including production lost from unhappiness. If you look at the screenshots of my cities, the capital was producing 15 hammers per turn, the second city 11. So one turn of anarchy = 26 hammers lost. You also lose gold per turn from higher maintenance and possibly slave revolts the longer you do it.

    If you do decide to whip (so you can whip the last round of units), the best time to do it is sometime after all your workers have been built while they're improving tiles, because workers still improve tiles during anarchy. So relative to the city, your second city's pigs will be improved after 3 turns of production instead of 4.
     

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