[BTS] Earth 18 civs - How to Win (Monarch-Emperor) : 4th game - Japan (Immortal :eek: ) - many calculations, I would appreciate replays from the pros

[Master_Of_Ideas]

Hello folks,

Actually I am developing my skill for higher difficulties (Emperor+), so I thought about a training session to solidify my basic skills - and maybe giving some educational game for players at level Noble-Monarch. Recently I won my first game on Emperor with Huayna Capac and now work through the financial leaders in the Nobles Club.

I love to write in detail, explain thoughts and like to discuss too. So I would appreciate advices from higher skilled players about my games and optimization ideas.

As far as I analyzed my actual game-style consists of:
- Early game optimization (workers!)
- Early game wonder decisions
- Efficient whipping
- Generating failgold
- Win Liberalism and Musics race
- Use GAs accordingly
- Axeman rushs ad early warmongering in general
- New: Cuirassier rushs

I am generally strong until Medieval Era and weaker in more modern Eras.

But I need a much deeper understanding in these topics:
- Decide, when and what to build in cities midgame+ (I still tend to build too much)
- Preparing midgame attacks accordingly
- Use espionage accordingly
- Decisions in midgame about civis
- Strategies for modern Eras (to be fair, i never nuked and seldom played Space victories)
- Cultural victories

We now play a series of Earth18civs games on Monarch/Emperor. Our civ is chosen random.

Modifiers:
- No huts (we cannot delete the predefined huts, because they are coded in scenario)
- No random events
- No tech-brokering (does this makes the game much easier or harder?)
- Normal speed

Variant A: One of the easier civs (all except the latter mentioned)
- Emperor difficulty
- Settle right in place

Variant B: Middlehard civ (Spain, Mongolian, Aztecs, Americans)
- Emperor difficulty
- We may retry to play with a better starting position

Variant C: Hard civ (Mali, Inca)
- Monarch difficulty
- We may choose starting position

____________________

Early win conditions:
Sometimes there's an absolute dominance possible early. In this case the game can end prematurely as "easy to win the rest", when the following conditions are fulfilled:
1. Highest points and 50% more than second player
2. Tech lead
3. Highest demographics in 5 of 6 categories (commerce, industry, food, military, landarea, population)
4. Game is so early, that no competitor can win culture race
5. Minimum 150 turns played

We go for domination or space-ship victory only.

Games:
1. Germans, Monarch (was a walk in the park)
2. Mongolia, Emperor (harder game, but manageable)
3. India, Emperor

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

First Game: Germans, Frederic

Blind game: I have no map knowledge so far

Strategic Analysis:
- Our UU and UB are late-game, so they are not important at all for now. We build a strategy without these and can use 'em, if necessary.
- Philosophical: I am rather inexperienced in this trait an in SE (Specialist Economy). From intuition I would say, it is a good strategy to find a city spot, where I can run 2 scientists early for getting my first academy. I plan to do 3-4 times a GA by sacrificing GPs. Most GPs would be saved for this, and used only when necessary. I need to study the use of GPs in this context and will share my toughts here. I will still tend to use cottages, but maybe later on this resource-rich map.
- Organized: Smaller upkeep and quicker build of lighthouses and courthouses. I don't know, whether this would affect my overall strategy much. Some things will go quicker, others give more space for money, but no extra behavior.

Part 1: Settling and conquering Rome (T1 - 63)

Starting techs: Hunting, Mining
These are okay, I like to have a scout at start, and Mining is a good addition for early BW.

T1:

The "wooded pig" here lets us finish our worker extraordinarely quick. We found the French in the west and 3 food resources. This makes Berlin a great GP farm.

First goals: Find as many civs as possible to share tech-knowledge. These are the south-europeans and thenafter the north-african and the civs of middle-east. We should get known minimum 8 civs until T10.

We take Farming and research AH directly after. Our first goal is to set up some cities before we plan a first war. I marked some possible city spots:

T11:
We met 5 neighbors so far.

T12:
Worker finished, we grow to 2 before settler.

T22:

8 civs met. We now travel to far east. While waiting for AH, we began a farm 1W of Berlin. 16 turns till BW. We will settle near the horses (1S or above). Maybe we can crush the French with chariots?

T25:
The Cow Ranch is ready. The French begin to conquer this tile by culture. We plan to settle on the horses. This way we get sea and a direct connection with Berlin. The new city will use the wheat.

T30:

We built the 2nd city as first of the known civs. Berlin now focusses on a barrack, so we can spam out war chariots soon. But first we grow to size 3. Our new city needs a wait a bit.

T33:

OK, no need to look to scandinavia for huts. We now travel to far east to get known of 4 more civs. After writing we travel to Africa and Iberia directly.

T36:

We found copper. Berlin now should grow to 4. Hambureg should work te river tile. I haven't much commerce, so every point counts.
We switch to Slavery. As third of the known civs... maybe the French will be easy as pie...

T41:
Second worker. He deforests the tile where the Oder meets the Baltic, so Hamburg can get another tile for commerce. Berlin will need to build army nonstop now. 3 turns left until chariots.

T45:

We now go for Pottery first. Our workers may build some cottages near the Oder. First axe is on its way. Now we need to decide, if we take out rome first. We then may lose the Cow for Berlin, but Rome is strong. Rome has slavery implemented now, so maybe he is going into IW now and gets dangerous...

T46:

Rome built at my planned spot. OK then, so Rome is first. Let chop out an army.

T49:

We lost the cow now. But we have soon 3 axes, a chariot and an warrior ready for attack, while Rome has factor 1.1 now.

Demographics:

T53:

Berlin border-popped. I got the cow back and a tile near Rome. Now I can get Antium and can cross near Venezia with ease.

Mystics is next. I need to prepare, because russia wants to grow into my land. Next city is planned:

We only need to connect it and the cow then.

T54:

Thanks Julius, I appreciate these workers. Let's go in.

T56:

That was close. 3 axes, 1 chariot and warrior cannot make it alone. But now Rome is ours. Hello, Isabelle!
We decided going to Writing next. We need commerce now to fund our war efforts. First goal is killing off Rome, second is France.

T59:
Next city founded at the Baltic sea. We can now get another cow. To prepare for the higher costs, first cottages are ready. We now spam cottages around Oder.

And we finally met China.

T63:

After Writing we are happy about now soon +4C and we are going into fishing now. Rome has 2 food resources we want.
And we got Antium now. Next aim will be Paris.

We met Mongolia. This means, we have the best network altogether now. Research should be much easier then. 3 civs in asia left, and 2 in africa, then our network is full and we get maximum research bonus.
Before we go further we need to repair our finances: Build workers, monuments. Connect the greek and the russian. Meanwhile we can work on more axes to conquer Paris. Next 10 turns are break, thenafter next war.

Result:

Strongest army, best food and industry with +20% to 2nd, low pop and despite 5 cities (only one with 3) we have relatively low pop and low land.

We now need a better trade network. We should go into Sailing and open borders with France. Our goal is now to connect with conutries, who could trade happiness resources. Or we settle in scandinavia for pelt? Of course we should progress strong. Even though we may have lower commerce, we can get some by trade and cottages. So next goal is to prioritize cottaging and then attempt to settle scandinavia for happiness resources.

 

[Fippy]

Specialist economy is something from waaay back then.
should be an important part of every game

Often it's best to create them in bursts.
Golden Age + Caste + Paci, stuff like that.
But with PHI or SPI or Pyramids, specialists can make sense during normal times as well.
Also if you want them for specific bulbs and in preparation for the big fireworks (Philo bulb i.e.).

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

Specialist economy is something from waaay back then.
should be an important part of every game

Often it's best to create them in bursts.
Golden Age + Caste + Paci, stuff like that.
But with PHI or SPI or Pyramids, specialists can make sense during normal times as well.
Also if you want them for specific bulbs and in preparation for the big fireworks (Philo bulb i.e.).

Yea, I planned this already. Caste is great for Great Merchants and maybe Great Scientists, even though Great Scientists doesn't need caste. In medieval I played the GA mostly without Caste, because of lack of food.

I didn't know, that SE was proven wrong. Personally I thought, SE and CE were on same level, even though even in an SE some cottaged cities would make sense too. But in case of civis both playstyles pla differently. So you would say, that even Philosophical leaders should decide generally for CE?

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

Part 2: Expanding further (T64 - 85)

Strategic Analysis

We have a quite strong potential now, but need some time to stabilize everything. I think about pursueing GLH in Rome, even though I have neither Fishing nor Stoneworking yet. Why pursuing it?

Pro:
(+) We need the techs anyway and don't lose anything
(+) Maybe we could win it and get massive Commerce in most european cities
Note: In this thread it is noted, that GLH is around turn 83 in Immortal. We would need 20 turns for it
(+) Even when we don't make it, we get failgold. Effectively it is an early way to build wealth. The wealth will suffice, so we can 100% until Currency and even build another city in the north meanwhile. So when we don't make it, we have transformed hammers into gold.

Contra:
(-) We lose the effect for building an early library at Rome, which costs around 20-30 in 20 turns.
(-) We lose the possibility to build our army. Given, that we make it to GLH, we lose 160, which is 4 axes, means 1 conquered city. When we make war later, we change our risks in diplomacy, for the friend-penalty. And conquering a city (like Paris) is equivalent to getting failgold...
(-) When a close civ builds it, we can conquer it and get it for free.

How are the odds, that we can make it?
- Sailing is developed by only 2 civs yet
- Stoneworking is developed by Egypt, they build the GW already
- The necessary techs and buildings are finished in T72, Rome has 13 , and can get 76 by chopping. Menas, we need around 10 turns to finish it. From statistics it can work.

What would you decide?
I tend to speculate on the fact, that Egypt could build it and we can conquer. But when Egypt doesn't get it, but e.g. China, we lose this completely. And it is worth 10 cities x 2 x 2 = 40 each turn...

Next goals beneath GLH-Decision for 20 turns until T84:
- Scout Scandinavia, look for happiness resources - DONE
- Prepare to settle Scandinavia - IN WORK
- Get up some libs - DONE
- Rebuild army and prepare 8 axes for Paris - DONE
- Send a quick unit to africa and find Japanese, Korean and Indian - 50%
- Pursue Research of mathmatics (maybe bonus for GLH with prechopping?) - DONE
______________________

T69:

We are solidated and get libs now. Hamburg will conquer the area with deer back from Russia and run 2 scientists then. Berlin will only hold place and build army then. Antium will join army-building soon.

We have 4 unused axes so far.

T74:

8 hammers now, 12 hammers soon. Higher we get only when prepared. Maths in 6 turns. This way we can prepare 70 additional hammers. Now 17/200.

This game has no Coreans? OK, then only 3 left.. next is India.

T77:
The Spain only have bows and warriors, the French have a chariot. We plan 2 spears in our attacking army. Actually still only 4 axes.

I see, our 20-turns-plan was too optimistic.

Rome has prechopped everything and awaits ~80 now

This is our plan for Scandinavia. After the next war and maybe currency we go for it. With GLH we start directly without currency. First we block key positions.

T79:

We can make it. Chop for 86 and whip one time. Every wood is prechopped.
After Mathmatics we go straight for Currency. We met Ashoka now. Now only 2 are left, even though they may be maximum average in tech... so it is not important for now.

T82:

We made it. Right before the expected of Immortal difficulty.

6 axes, 2 spears. But our city guard warrior is far away. Nethertheless, we build up.

T83:
Ready! This is directly +8 by my coastal cities. Now, where the upkeep in coastal cities is mitigiated, we whip out 2 settlers for colonizing the Scandinavia entry.

T85:
Our stack is ready, but overcoming a wall with archers behind in a city, which could whip it out, may be a bit harsh. I prepare worker-stealing and 4 more axes.

Meanwhile we prepare colonizing Scandinavia:

Hamburg builds a galley to assist this. We will whip it out and send troops to reinforce all these planned cities.


And Syracusae:

A working boat either will be ready.

Maybe I should go for Isabelle first? She has a really bad positioned Capital, I would like to raze, even though it is the buddhistic headquarter...

OK then, let's do Isa first. Gather more war experience. And she isn't that popular as only buddhist under hinduists...

Result:

T86:
We run to Isabella and will overtake Barcelona next. For happiness we switched to hinduism. It should be clear, why:

 

[Fippy]

I didn't know, that SE was proven wrong. Personally I thought, SE and CE were on same level, even though even in an SE some cottaged cities would make sense too. But in case of civis both playstyles pla differently. So you would say, that even Philosophical leaders should decide generally for CE?

I mainly meant that both of those concepts are not used for game analysis here anymore.
I even struggled with it back then (and economy as term in general)..when river cottages are built i can still use scientists elsewhere, and via versa.
This becomes especially obvious on high difficulty levels..where we take what every city can offer.

 

[jorissimo]

I think this works better if you post updates of smaller turn sets and wait at least a day after each update to give people time to comment. Otherwise it's a lot of material to read and people lose interest. While doing shadow games, I often have a different, private game going on in parallel so I don't feel like I'm having to wait.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

What would the pro's do on higher difficulties?

Raze or accept Isabels Capital?

When I resettle Iberia, I would settle in northwest and on the wine.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

I think this works better if you post updates of smaller turn sets and wait at least a day after each update to give people time to comment. Otherwise it's a lot of material to read and people lose interest. While doing shadow games, I often have a different, private game going on in parallel so I don't feel like I'm having to wait.

Yea, you are right. I don't see this as shadow game, because difficulty is rather low. Actually I use this to discuss some advanced strategies and structure my thoughts about it. There are some little questions, which can be tricky, e.g. Razing Madrid or keeping it, but mostly the game is straight-forward and rather something people can comment or not.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

Part 3: Conquer Western Europe (T86 - 120)

Strategic Analysis

Although the general ranking doesn't show us as favorite, I have the feeling, we could be tech lead. But because I don't plan to go for alphabet now, I cannot prove it. Now we have to find an idea about what to do about Spain. Of course I will take Barcelona, but what should be done with Madrid? It is a Holy City and has some production abilties, but it is placed so bad. When I conquer and accept it, I would lose directly 4 because of never using GLH and I lose one settling spot.

When I accept it, I could use the holy city for sending a secondary religion to my enemies. The city would be ready to use directly, which helps direct expansion. I save the time for building 2 settlers..

Keep Madrid:
(+) Save time for building 2 settlers
(+) Build units directly and use silver directly
(+) Can make use of the Holy City
(+) Ca make use of city buildings
(-) We lose 8 for 2 well-placed city spots for the next 150 turns until Science
(-) We lose 2 well-placed spots for building ships
(-) We cannot build harbor later

I tend to raze Madrid and build 2 new spots. It costs a mass, but this will make 2 great coast cities in Spain over longer time.

Next goals until T110:
- Settle 2 cities in Scandinavia and the one on Sicilia; build transport system for more efficient settling Scandinavia - DONE (in T100, in T111 the 3rd)
- Get catas and kill Spain and France (and maybe Russion/England next) - IN WORK (France killed in T110)
- Build army to size of 15 units and additionally 3 catas - DONE (they have even elephants now)
- Get Alphabet and fill the gaps - DONE (in T96)

T88:

Conquered Barcelona. The capital is best killed with catas.
I have seen: French built the Pyramids!
Galley is ready for settling Scandinavia next turn.

T91:

Settler is now right at spot. Berlin will produce a Great Scientist, which we would use for academy at Berlin (Berlin will get the Great Lib too). Currency is ready. Now let's trade. This one was greatest:

Got +4 all-in-all and Ivory, which is used mainly as happiness-resource for now.

T96:
Construction is ready. And Hatty seems to have Alphabet. I don't want to trade for now the low-cost techs, because I want to develop 'em myself and get the overflow beakers. She wouldn't trade Alpha for solely Currency... I need to think about that now.

Let's look at the purposes of our cities:

South:
Rome -> Military (needs Barracks and maybe Granary)
Antium -> Military
Frankfurt (we be renamed soon) -> Growth
Barcelona -> Growth

North:
Berlin -> Settling Scandinavia before England gets it
Hamburg, Köln -> Growth, Commerce
München -> Commerce, regularly pops out worker and settler

We build some catas now.

Research:

This tech should be known by every other civ, which makes maybe 30-40% overflow beakers next turn.
Dschingis and Isa have Alphabet too. I would let Isa live (for now), when she gives me Alpha... wich she doesn't.

But Dschingis is great:

Well... we accept!
And the French give me 120 for Writing. Yea, we accept.

So we research mainly for getting good broker deals now.

We go for HBR, so we get Elephants and maybe can trade for IW with Ashoka.

War:
We don't have stress with Isa. Just let our best war machine cities develop and build catas meanwhile. I strongly believe, razing Madrid is the better way. So we only need to attack, when we can send 2 settlers right after. Maybe we conquer the French before?

__________________

T99:
He had the same thought

T101:
We got Polytheism, traded with France for Monotheism (and 50) and switched to organized religion. Now we focus on getting 100% hindu and can get it without monastery.

T106:
First War Elephant is ready. We will attack Paris soon with 3 catas, 1 elephants, 1 sword, 5 axes and 1 spear. I needed the time to build a "round" stack. Scandi develops quite well. Founded confuzianis, which may be a mistake. We had should go for Metalcasting directly for getting Colossus.

T109:
Sometimes I don't like myself. I hesitate on starting the war against the French. But not it is time. We got +1 axe and +1cata. But hesitation can be senseful: There are some French Soldiers scouting around my area, which could be dangerous.

Meanwhile Rome builds a Forge to progress to Colossus. I don't know, what pursue next, maybe Great Lib and Music Race?

T110:
We are in, good prepared. Research is going into aestetics-musics now.

T111:
The French threatened me in Rome, so I needed to hurry about attack.

And Rome can finish Colossus in only 6 turns...


T119:
Madrid has nothing inside. RAZE!

Colossus is ready, Great lib started recently, Music on its way. I let Rome now build the Partheon.
I didn't open border for the British, so they cannot settle somewhere else. They are my next aim, because they have the Holy City. But maybe I let them build the Shrine first and conquer Russia?

Of course we need to resettle Iberia now.
Saladin disliked that I killed the Buddhism Holy City... well.... okay, he may be next.

Result:
Europe is conquered and settled now. There are 3 more cities planned: One in the north of Scandinavia, two in Iberia. And every settler is built actually.

North:

South:

Absolute Tech and Production Lead:

Next goals: (until T150)
1. Settle the 3 planned spots and at northern africa
2. Build Great Lib, Partheon and maybe try other wonders (Hanging Gardens)
3. Prepare the war against Russia or England and maybe start it
4. Scout the Malinese Empire; evaluate
5. Tech Engineering and Civil Service and build a decent Medieval Army consisting of 30+ units

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

Part 4: Conquering the British Isle (T120 - 150)

T126:
Lizzy built Kashi Vishwanath. Now let's replan. We conquer England first and thenafter going to Russia. To prepare this we go first after every partner of us and beg some money, Lizzy included. Now we have 10 turns to be ready, but we may need longer.

We go for Engineering next. At first we will take a look into Lizzys Country (4 cities), thenafter we prepare with Trebs, Catas, Elephants, Galley, maybe some Triremes. This will be some work to do.

Rome finished a Great Merchant. We send him to Egypt (Artemis).

T132:
Hanging Gardens are ready now. Paris is 100% on Great Engineer now and now contributes to our war efforts again. Engineering finished, we go for Civil Service now.

T134:
Civil Service reade, we trade for Theology.

Now: Golden Age, civic swap. Every city with some hammers and barracks should buid soldiers now.

T144:
We won Liberalism and took Nationalism. Now our army is finished, we go for Taj Mahal.

T147:

Won without losses. Our medieval army overpowers every other more classical army now. I think we can finish England until T165. Meanwhile the continent produces units for the war against Russia. We could possibly do a Cuir rush.

____________________

We meet our "early win" conditions now:

Points:

Tech lead:

Demographics:

Commerce and Production is more than double of second player.

The rest would be a walk in the park now.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

Second Game: Mongola, Dschingis Khan

Blind game: I have nearly no map knowledge so far

Strategic Analysis:
General position: We are in a "win or lose" state concerning China. We have by far the worse land, so when we don't expell the Chinese, we will lose the game. So our first purpose is to kill China. We shouldn't do any wonder for this, which makes this game significantly harder than the game before. En plus we play on Emperor instead of the easier Monarch.

When we win, the game will feel like playing China: Huge land, massive amount of health resources and maybe we can get some wonders now and then.

Difference to germans last game for early game: Our land is open to the north, the west and the east, which makes it more probable to get attacked by barbarians.

Analysis:
- UU: Our UU is the Keshik, which is slightly stronger than HA and which can run quicker through hills and woods. It is ideal for worker stealing or attacking quick and dirty
- UB: Our UB is the Ger, a special stable, which gives a +4 experience instead of +2 experience. This isn't huge, and most of the time barely gives an upgrade tier
- Aggressive: I like this trait, but I must see, that it isn't helping in better Keshiks. It is more for the slower base attack units, we are not really specialized in. The quicker built barracks is fine.
- Imperialistic: The quicker settler gives us an edge in early settling. We should aim on 3-4 strong cities, before we attack China. After that the +100% general bonus helps us to make our troops slightly stronger. General and barracks give us 5 exp, which means, we can build a maceman with +75% city attack or a pike with additional bonus against cavalry.
- Hunting and Wheel: Gives me a quicker scout and the possibility to build chariots early (I am sure, horses are nearby)


My personal goal in this game:
I want to improve my whipping skills by playing this a bit more sophisticated and planful, which may be necessary in preparing early rushes. Additionally I need to improve my midgame, when I don't have the mass of classical wonders I would have regularly. Playing with poor commerce like we need in this situation may be hard for me.


Part 1: Settling and looking for China (T1 - 76)

Start, T0:
This land is barren. I trust the game and SIP:

O my god, this starting position is so bad... we scout counter-clock wise around the lake and then we travel to europe. May this help me with my science...

T9:

Happiness, but no food! How should this work out here?

T15:

Not really good, but found some land for commerce. It's not desert everywhere...

T21:

A russian bear has eaten my scout. In this crazy case I personally find it OK to reload...

T22:

We go AH -> Mining -> BW of course. In this game we can forget about big cities with abundance of food now. Our soon ready warrior will scout the area around the goldmine in the north. The only grassland NE of the horses can not even be farmed... Who thought about this starting position?!

Or should I better try to settle in China directly?

T23:
We go north to look after the gold mine. Maybe we can find a food resources here... the next unit, a chariot, will be sent to china.

T24:
What shall we do without map knowledge? Maybe build some roads?

T31:
Nothing at all. At least near the gold mine there is some grassland.

T36:
No copper?! I settled near the gold mine and found out, there's deer in the near. Let's chop out another worker and connect the cities. Research is Writing to scout a bit in China homeland. We now connect the gold mine and then chop out things. Maybe we can build a third city Northwest later. But it seems that staying at 2 cities with pop 2 is a quite OK strategy. We just need enough Keshiks and then we get into the richest land of the world... no need to build these barren lands.

T41:
We met Germany. And Germany knows something about Writing.

T43:
More I cannot do about this poor capital. Now well, it is a production base for Chariots now. And we will need 'em in China as addition to our Keshiks.

T47:
Maybe the europeans can help me in my search for knowledge.

T50:
We have Writing now. Let's scout the Chinese and work on HBR. 15 turns. Archery should be quick after we get known to that many civs. China has opened borders. And I have seen a Shanghai there with only 2 warriors inside... mhh... I could settle in southern china or conquer 'em...

T51:
That's all? Peking has only one lonely archer as defence?

But I see, I could need Keshiks that for.

T57:
I deleted my units to keep unit upkeep at 0. Maybe it would be better to build a library more earlier in the capital to overcome the waiting time better.

T69:
OK, now Keshiks are ready. I take Alphabet next, so maybe I can trade the gaps.

T76:
With chopping and final whipping we have now 4 troops of Keshiks, 2 of them even more advanced and built with a Ger. Let' hope, it will suffice. China has a really bad city-placement, but I would take 2-3 and raze only 1.

The Japanese is around too. Maybe I kick him next.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

Result:

I played some more turns and the Chinese turned out as really bad positioned and my troops as too weak to swallow the Chinese as a whole. I do my retry now. I now know, that 6 Keshiks suffice for the capital, but now for whole China. I lost some time in developing the army and research early, because I didn't settle optimal, and I built too many chariots, which could not really be upgraded to Keshiks.

New guidelines:
New city placements for the next try:
- Settle 1S from starting spot
- Settle 1N from horses
- Settle again 1SE from gold

Every city will only grow medium strong, because of lack of tiles. They are not really specialized and will have both commerce and production. Because of early military production they will be the backbone of my military.

I have built too many chariots. I could better invest the hammers in Gers, which reduces Upkeep problems.

China begins to settle the Copper tile around T76. Around this time our Keshiks should conquer the capital. Better around T70. This point is a bit hard to accomplish, because now I need to found 3 cities instead of 2. But 3 cities can produce more Keshiks than 2 and 3 cities should produce more commerce than 2, so maybe it turns out better.

 

[pigswill]

One alternative could be settle 1E to get second sheep, research AH wheel and go for a once city chariot rush.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

One alternative could be settle 1E to get second sheep, research AH wheel and go for a once city chariot rush.

That's another idea. Advantage is, that we may get better city spots in China, when not the AI, but we ourselves choose where to settle. For now I go for the plan above, but when u want, why not playing this out in this thread and compare the later game stages?

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

Second Game: Mongola, Dschingis Khan (2nd approach)

Strategic Analysis:
General position: We are in a "win or lose" state concerning China. We have by far the worse land, so when we don't expell the Chinese, we will lose the game. So our first purpose is to kill China. We shouldn't do any wonder for this, which makes this game significantly harder than the game before. En plus we play on Emperor instead of the easier Monarch.

When we win, the game will feel like playing China: Huge land, massive amount of health resources and maybe we can get some wonders now and then.

Difference to germans last game for early game: Our land is open to the north, the west and the east, which makes it more probable to get attacked by barbarians.

Analysis:
- UU: Our UU is the Keshik, which is slightly stronger than HA and which can run quicker through hills and woods. It is ideal for worker stealing or attacking quick and dirty
- UB: Our UB is the Ger, a special stable, which gives a +4 experience instead of +2 experience. This isn't huge, and most of the time barely gives an upgrade tier
- Aggressive: I like this trait, but I must see, that it isn't helping in better Keshiks. It is more for the slower base attack units, we are not really specialized in. The quicker built barracks is fine.
- Imperialistic: The quicker settler gives us an edge in early settling. We should aim on 3-4 strong cities, before we attack China. After that the +100% general bonus helps us to make our troops slightly stronger. General and barracks give us 5 exp, which means, we can build a maceman with +75% city attack or a pike with additional bonus against cavalry.
- Hunting and Wheel: Gives me a quicker scout and the possibility to build chariots early (I am sure, horses are nearby)


My personal goal in this game:
I want to improve my whipping skills by playing this a bit more sophisticated and planful, which may be necessary in preparing early rushes. Additionally I need to improve my midgame, when I don't have the mass of classical wonders I would have regularly. Playing with poor commerce like we need in this situation may be hard for me.

Part 1: Settling and overtaking China (T1 - 87)

T0:
We settle 1S from normal spot. This time we send our scout over southern China to the rest of the world. I really dislike the northern bears.

T22:
We grow for size 3 before we build another settler. Because we know, BW doesn't help us for now, we go for writing first and begin to build a library. En plus we can make contact to the most civs this way to help with our research.

T35:
We further delay BW. We go directly for HBR, because we have no advantages neither from Slavery nor from chopping. But when the other civs go for this tech, we may save some beakers.

So we go: AH -> Writing -> HBR -> BW




Or cap will build library and thenafter go for military. When reaching pop 4 we directly start the next settler. We should time it accordingly to start our first Keshik.

T46:
We met every civ except Japan, Egypt and Mali. In 4 turns the next settler is ready. While the research still needs time, we build a second worker in northern city and library & barracks in capital.

T58:
We met Egypt. Our 3 cities flourish, while Keshiks are ready in around 3 turns.

But this is the best:

T61:
We now start BE with only 4 turns instead of 8-10. 7 other civs adopted Slavery. Our library helped us to steal a first tile from China.

T65:
This time China placed his second city a bit better. Capital has 5 defenders.

T74:
China founded near Bronze. So we need to hurry now. He adopted Slavery already, so he has BW. 3 Keshiks are ready, 3 more are in preparation. I will create another one by whip. Most of them have +4 XP by the Ger.

T77:
5 Keshiks are ready, one more ready next turn. Lets go on China, because they plan to get the copper now...

T78:
Choke him now!

Got Peking, 1 settler (worker), 2 worker on the copper tile and defeated 2 chariots. That's strong. We now go for the other 2 cities. except Nanjing.

T80:
We got the second city. It would make a great GP farm...

T84:
Next city is fallen. I have the feeling, it is misplaced, we should burn it, even though it has a granary already. I want to build more coastal cities.

Last city will be the hardest. I will take my time for getting it, but I want to protect the copper. 4 other civs have Alphabet already.

T85:
Alphabet is ready. Now let's see, how we can trade the other things now. Traded Alphabet for Ironworking with India and Writing for Pottery with Rome. I don't want to trade more, even when I could, because of the trade limitation.

T87:
The war seems to be over now. The rest of China is smaller than todays Taiwan. But there's a ton of archer inside, because of which we stop kicking him off. We lose 1 happiness because of culture, but that's not that big problem.

Here is our actual state and our planned state. We will settle the Chinese Spots next and thenafter directly go for the northern spots.

Our research now goes for Sailing -> Currency -> Mathematics -> Building, while our workers connect India by road to open trade in the entire world.

We go and scout the north next and plan to conquer the Japanese outposts at Chinese homeland for marble. Building the Mausoleum should be a good goal.

In this game we should focus on massive settling and massive landarea to win.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

Part 2: Expanding and Stabilizing (T86 - 103)

Strategic Analysis

Our primary goal to conquer great parts of China is achieved. We are right before 7 cities, 3 of them are in really strong position. Now we go into a phase of expansion. Room for expansion is in the north and at the eastern coast after settling the typical spots in China mainland.

For now we are slightly overexpanded, so settling more than one city should be avoided until we have currency and a steady trade route system to the western world.

We want to research Calendar and build the Mausoleum. For that we need to push Japan out of China mainland to get to the marble.
We lack in workers (have only 5) and our cultural borders are too small. We need to do something about it.

At T124 Mausoleum is typically built at Immortal. Here in this case this may be later, because the developed europeans don't have many calendar resources. We go for ~T120. Noone has maths yet...

We can trade for techs according to this thread, because the 5-tech-leaders are unknown or generally behind in tech. But should we trade? We could get more beakers overflow, but we need Mystics and Sailing for our goals... if I could trade Sailing, I would do it. But not for mystics. We will try to pop out borders by libraries, when we have an commerce-rich city, and chop, if necessary.

And at last: The barbarians from the north are getting more aggressive now. We should keep 2-3 Keshiks there to defend.

Edit:
I played some rounds further and meanwhile Chinas last city pops out to block my trade with the western world. It is impossible to conquer this city now, I need catas. The only way to keep the trade is building a road to India, but this takes very long. To summarize the best way seems to be here to make peace with China, get Sailing and Stonemasonry from them and so make sure, that my trade routes sustain.

Advantages:
- I get the techs for free now
- I free my troops, which helps with barbarian invasion in the north and with the Japanese City south
- I sustain the trade routes to the west without giving Alphabet to Mansa, which stabilizes my tech lead
- I am not forced to get Catas very soon, when I plan to expand peacefully
- I don't have war weariness

Disadvantages:
- I later need to redeclare war after developing Catas (but this is after Maths, Currency and Calender!), and this is a small diplomatic problem

All in all it is better to make peace now. This is the result: I got all in all +6 with Sailing.



____________________________

Goals until T110:
- Research: Mystic, Maths, Calendar - DONE in T106
- Get 3 more workers - DONE
- Get 2 active Keshiks to defend the north, maybe even fogbust the north - MORE THAN DONE
- Get 6 cities and prepare to conquer the marble city of Japan on China mainland - DONE
- Make Peking a production powerhouse - DONE
- Don't make peace with China to avoid the redeclaring war diplomatic disadvantage, instead plan to conquer it completely with catas later

Goals until T125:
- Get Currency
- Specialize cities: Kara, Besh -> Military ; Peking -> Military, Wonders ; Turfan -> commerce, build research/wealth ; others -> commerce
- Get minimum 10 cottages
- Get 2 more cities, get pelt
- Get into Top3 of land area and population

_______________________

T86:
I made peace with China for Sailing and Stonemasonry:

Maybe I should build some instead of Keshiks.

T87:
Russia asked to HBR. I only give it to 'em, because I set off tech brokering. Maybe Russia can be a ood friend later.

T88:
Barbarian invasion get harsher. They could soon kick out my mines:

OK, 4 barbarian warriors. The northern 2 are much more dangerous. We could beat 'em completely, because we had enough Keshiks here.

T91:
We have 8 Keshiks right before the Japanese marble city:

Toku is unknown to the most, so declaring war to him may not be problematic, when I do it very soon.

We made it. There were only 2 archers inside, on flatlands.

The city had granary and lighthouse, so it will grow soon. We build a monument now. Now we need some defenders, but more we need archers here. Our upkeep will rise to the moon soon...

Demographics in T92 is looking a bit better than before:

But this is no surprise with 7 cities. The city upkeep has grown massively. But when our borders pop out, most financial problems should be solved. At the sea there are many nice commerce tiles...

T94:
Japan would make peace. This is something, which could help me with building up defence and cultural structures. China could pop out its border again oder build a nasty city near China mainland at the PH. Both things could hold problems.

Actually I am at 85 at 100% slider and at 37 at a sustainable slider (20% only) with 2 cities producing science only, so building another city to block China could be problematic.

My upkeep, especially for units, is huge actually:

To save money I should definitely go into peace and grow my cities before warring again.

But, disadvantage: I want to settle Korea first to prevent Toku from taking a bad spot. So it's this core question: Rexing or stabilizing the eco?

For my goal to get the Mausoleum stabilizing should be definitely the better choice. But I risk some diplomatic issues when redeclaring war to Japanese again. But maybe I can provoke Toku in declaring war first the cultural way?

Or maybe I should wait until I have Currency to make Toku pay for peace? Actually there is no direct need in form of war weariness in my cities... well.... let's wait first.

T95:
Hatty (judaism) declared war to Saladin (hinduism). Rome (buddhism, main religion in europe, founded by Spain) is in war with germany (no religion). These conflicts slow their development and may help me keeping the tech lead.

My first 2 scientists are working in my GP farm near Korea.
106 per turn now at 100%, with 28 from hammers, and sustainable 56 The first cottages are working. I delete 2 warriors for a better eco.

But wait: Russia has Confuzianism?! It has been founded 4 turns ago... so someone was able to get CoL so early?!

T96:
Maths is complete, we go for Calendar first to connect the happiness resources and grow further. Lizzy built Oracle and got Metalcasting, so I assume the Colossus in London soon.

T99:
A spearman attacks my gold mine. And we have only Keshiks nearby... O.o
Maybe we had better not deleted our warriors...

I will add an axeman soon.

T100:
He destroyed the mine. Now we suffer a little happiness decrease... 4 cities ran into dislike, one of 'em could whip it away. But the spearman is dead, for now... we do peace with Japan for now.

This is a really bad situation economically:

I rely on cities production to get enough beakers now.

T101:
Demographic results:

It seems that Russia could be a main competitor in landmass and population. They have 7 cities like me, and have exact the same techs.

Let's look at the competition interests:

This is the landmass, they may be interested in too. I want to keep a good relationship with Russia, so I may need to build a blocking city near the western spot. Further map-research is necessary. In the east I have found 2 additional spots to settle, both heavy in river-grasslands. But settling here seems to be more urgent.

T103:
The gold mine is connected again. Meanwhile I produced granaries and libraries in my main cities and they borderpopped. Now they produce beakers and I came at 100% to all-in-all 131 in 300BC. There are 3 turns left until start of Mausoleum and connecting the happiness resources.

Look at Satsuna: This is one great city, I could conquer later, when it is more developed. So I can concentrate on north-central asia now.



Here are the demographics:

All in all 4 civs asked me for HBR now. I learned: Teching something quick and give it for free gives me some advantages in diplomatic affairs.

Goals until T110:
- Research: Mystic, Maths, Calendar - DONE in T106
- Get 3 more workers - DONE
- Get 2 active Keshiks to defend the north, maybe even fogbust the north - MORE THAN DONE
- Get 6 cities and prepare to conquer the marble city of Japan on China mainland - DONE
- Make Peking a production powerhouse - DONE

Goals until T125:
- Get Currency - DONE IN T115
- Specialize cities - DONE
- Get minimum 10 cottages - 3/10 (but it seems I don't need that many in China)
- Get 2 more cities, get pelt - 1/2 DONE
- Get into Top3 of land area and population - 1/2 DONE

So let's replan now.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

Part 3: Expanding resources and building a wonder for long-term (T104 - 115)

Strategic Analysis

Well... we made it to come to No1 in city-count, landarea, commerce, hammers and food.
We are right before fulfilling our plan, but now we have a problem: Persia has Calendar already, and has a capital with MANY hammers and size 7. It hasn't marble and it is engaged in a war against egypt, so maybe he cannot make it. To get Mausoleum is a bit of luck now.

The next steps consist of expanding north and building heavy-commerce cities there before Russia does the same:

The most western "C" marks a good spot for central-asia, while the other 2 are filling-spots, which can produce big amounts of commerce in future. I need more information about the expansion speed of Russia towards the east now and need to send a settler there to block this yummi spot for the Great Mongolian Empire.

Meanwhile Peking should build the Mausoleum by all means.

____________________________

Goals until T115 (1AD):
- Research Calendar and Currency
- Connect all happiness resources
- Build Mausoleum
- Get all-in-all 10 workers (2 more)
- Get all-in-all 8 cities (1 more in the north, near pelt and rivers)
- Grow to number 1 in landarea and into Top3 of population
- Know the most eastern Russian cities

_____________________

T105:
We fill Pekings food stocks nearly to max, so we can use as much hammerheavy tiles as possible while building Mausoleum:

Karakorum starts to build the settler. As soon as possible we send some workers.

T106:
I haven't seen, that I got silk already. But I checked the turns for Mausoleum directly: 14 turns when not growing, 18 turns, when slightly growing. We now switch every city, so we can get one pop more.

T110:
We found out, that Mali sells Ivory. We traded Iron for it. Maybe Mali can now defend itself a bit better and be a good friend for a long period. And we found out, Russia settles much more aggressively to the east. At first I thought they stay behind the mountains, but now I am not sure anymore. We need to focus on settling our spots, no matter the costs!

T113:
We made it:

Our russian friends didn't settle that far in the east, but you may see the dark line inside? We need to push out some barbs before we can settle there. The city spot is not negotiable!

Currency is finished soon. We should produce some more settlers now. Persia had Currency already - and 180 gold. Maybe this is the failgold? Well... they bought HBR for 180...

T114:
Sold HBR to Rome and France and got 350. Ka-Ching! We now develop Meditation only to sell it and get a good amount of overflow-beakers. Next is Aestetics-Literature. After settling north-central asia we should think about getting the next 2 Japanese cities... but before I want to start the Great library.

T116 / Result at 25 AD:

Southern part: (big cities, quick development)

Planned: Guangzou should build the Great Lib and National Epic. Osaka should build Moai. Nin-hsia should build a research or wealth specialized buildings. Peking is best suited for wonders.


Northern part: (slower development, but steady!)

These 3 cities will stay medium-sized and produce both commerce and hammers. Their central location is best for building military, settlers and workers.

Demographics:

It is better than before. Our army is no longer the biggest, but still in a respectable size. We are position 2 in land-area with big distance to the first. This should be Persia or maybe an American. Our population boomed massively and grow to the double of the second civ.

Tech-wise most competitors need Maths and Currency. Only Persia is clearly before me;

Goals until T115 (1AD):
- Research Calendar and Currency - DONE
- Connect all happiness resources - DONE
- Build Mausoleum - DONE
- Get all-in-all 10 workers (2 more) - 9/10, 1 more actually built
- Get all-in-all 8 cities (1 more in the north, near pelt and rivers) - 2 settlers are on their way, 3rd settler is actually built
- Grow to number 1 in landarea and into Top3 of population - DONE in pop with great advance, but only No2 in land area
- Know the most eastern Russian cities - DONE

Russia developed here and settled a big landmass:

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

Part 4: Expanding the land to the north (T116 - T150)

Strategic Analysis

We grew to dominance in population now and got a good amount of gold from trades. Actually +165 per turn with 100% slider, which can be hold for the next 15 turns. We further expand into the north and then prepare to attack the Japanese cities on the mainland.

____________________________

Goals until T135 (500AD):
- Researched Literature and Construction
- Built the Great Lib
- Got to all-in-all 12 workers (+3)
- Got to all-in-all 10 cities (+3)
- Build an army to conquer the new Japanese cities soon

____________________________

T121:
We researched Polytheism, Aestetics and Literature and now go for Musics. We got a Great Scientist and settled him at Guangzhou. Now our efforts go into building the Great Lib there. Our only competitor is Hatty, who is at war actually.

Meanwhile another city builds Parthenon. Peking could overtake next, so we definitely generate some failgold there.

T125:
We got it!

T126:
We got the planned 3 city spots.

T128:
We got the music artist. I am a bit sad, that I didn't trade for Stone with France, as he has it. I really appreciated it in building Moai...

T136:
Finished our project:

And we found the next 2 spots. One is settled right next turns, for the other the settler is built already.

We are still on track with technology:

With machinery we can build windmills in the north, which helps my first 3 cities to grow organically.
After machinery we work on Liberalism, beginning with CoL.
Our next Great Scientist will be used for Philo to let the AIs get distracted from Philo. And maybe I start a GA then...

Demographics are looking great:

But the best is:
Guangzhou produces 19 per turn, pushing the borders. This way we could conquer the Japanese mainland cities without war or provoke Toku to declare war for himself. And Toku is completely underdeveloped... but I produce some troops now to be prepared. Kagoshima has revolted 1 time. To prevent war, we had forced him to pay Tribute - and got it. Now I go for Sixteenian in Peking. This way Guangzhou could be even stronger.

___________________

Goals until T135 (500AD):
- Researched Literature and Construction - DONE (researched even Musics and got the artist)
- Built the Great Lib - DONE
- Got to all-in-all 12 workers (+3) - DONE
- Got to all-in-all 10 cities (+3) - DONE
- Build an army to conquer the new Japanese cities soon - NOT DONE

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

T140:
I got a new Great Scientist. Bulbed Philo to make it less attractive for the AIs to get Philo that soon. Now we beeline to Liberalism. Some competitors are at the same speed. Russia needs 5 turns for Civil Service, I need 4.

T142:
France has stone for me. I take it and let some of my cities work on the Chichen Itza, when they are finished. Meanwhile Osaka builds the Moai.

T143:
Kagoshima flipped peacefully.

T148:
The Sixteenian Chapel is built in Peking. Now borderpopping gets much more dangerous for our neighbors...

T149:
We settled the planned spot. Now 13 cities