Earth challenge (huge size)

Matrix · Apr 9, 2011

Here's a new game concept for you: play on this Earth map as any civilization you wish, at any difficulty, and post your result here. I will gather the results and make a list of the best players and civilizations based on statistical analysis.

This is something we've been doing at CivDuelZone, but I think the idea has now matured enough to start it here without start-up hitches.
See here the thread at CivDuelZone where it all started. But over there we only played at noble difficulty and normal speed. I have decided to leave that up to the players here now.

Some Civilizations are more difficult than others, so the results for tougher civilizations will be increased relatively. Vice versa: the difficulty of a civilization will be judged on results, so if a civilization is played by a someone who posted a bad result on another civilization, the result will be increased to compensate.

If a player plays the same civilization more than once, only the best result will count.

When you're done, please submit your results here.
Preferably you could also post your result (including screenshot) in this thread as notification to others.

Do note that Epic game speed is mandatory!

In the end we will have:
- A list of results.
- A list of the weighted average of players their results.
- A list of the weighted average of results per civilization.

Maya and Mongolia start at a slightly different place than is historically accurate, because otherwise they'd start just too close to another civ. Furthermore, the map's been tweaked and adapted many times, up to many details, to adjust for accurate climate, actual resources locations (although there are horses in America) and a fair start for all civilizations at least to some degree.

Start: two settlers, one warrior, one warrior or scout, one worker
Difficulty: selectable
Speed: epic
Victory type: all
Map size: huge
Options: pick religion, no tech trading, no vassal states

Code:

    [U]Player         [/U]  [U]Civilization  [/U]  [U]Points[/U]  [U]Date   [/U]  [U]Result         [/U]  [U]Difficulty[/U]
01. Rom_Addy         Rome            564671   730 AD  Domination win   Noble
02. Bugg123          Zululand        428130  1315 AD  Conquest   win   Immortal
03. Kadazzle         India           406799  1655 AD  Domination win   Deity
04. AbsoluteZero     Zululand        292290  1605 AD  Domination win   Immortal
05. west45           Mali            264564  1748 AD  Domination win   Emperor
06. DesertPfox       Mongolia        239286  1665 AD  Domination win   Emperor
07. CaF              Zululand        237385  1605 AD  Domination win   Emperor
08. grenobles        Vikings         231560  1774 AD  Domination win   Emperor
09. monkybone        Mongolia        213852  1710 AD  Domination win   Emperor
10. illram           Egypt           192424  1712 AD  Domination win   Monarch
11. monkybone        Vikings         180154  1816 AD  Domination win   Emperor
12. gram123          Rome            174347  1555 AD  Domination win   Noble
13. DesertPfox       China           171069  1814 AD  Domination win   Emperor
14. Ororo            Zululand        155940  1814 AD  Domination win   Emperor
15. alhimik          Rome            152288  1824 AD  Domination win   Monarch
16. evil_spock       Inca            146644  1847 AD  Domination win   Monarch
17. Kadazzle         Egypt           142225  1300 AD  Cultural   win   Deity
18. balatian         Khmer           137299  1810 AD  Domination win   Emperor
19. m00n             Maya            119019  1878 AD  Domination win   Emperor
20. Morholt          Vikings         116584  1864 AD  Domination win   Monarch
21. zbgayumn         Egypt           110919  1738 AD  Domination win   Warlord
22. yendor           Aztec            94967  1720 AD  Domination win   Chieftain
23. Gustave5436      Inca             94879  1718 AD  Space Race win   Monarch
24. yendor           Native America   94795  1702 AD  Conquest   win   Chieftain
25. stevoh           Mongolia         89981  1887 AD  Domination win   Monarch
26. yendor           Mali             85664  ???? ??  Domination win   Chieftain
27. gram123          Mali             73289  1857 AD  Diplomatic win   Noble
28. yendor           Mongolia         72188  1770 AD  Domination win   Chieftain
29. Makahlua         Russia           66967  1890 AD  Domination win   Noble
30. WithTea          Native America   64025  1855 AD  Cultural   win   Monarch
31. Archon_Wing      China            60638  1818 AD  Diplomatic win   Monarch
32. yendor           Maya             58857  1770 AD  Domination win   Chieftain
33. gram123          Egypt            57305  1752 AD  Cultural   win   Immortal
34. illram           Rome             55083  1851 AD  Space Race win   Monarch
35. gram123          Inca             52151  1778 AD  Cultural   win   Emperor
36. yendor           Inca             46778  1864 AD  Space Race win   Chieftain
37. QuantumPion      Egypt            45361  1900 AD  Space Race win   Monarch
38. Archon_Wing      Aztec            37840  1903 AD  Space Race win   Monarch
39. zbgayumn         Inca             37220  1768 AD  Cultural   win   Monarch
40. gram123          Egypt            34704  1265 AD  Cultural   win   Settler
41. dilettante       Russia           33855  1923 AD  Space Race win   Warlord
42. Archon_Wing      Native America   32347  1883 AD  Cultural   win   Noble
43. Brenador         Inca             29537  1768 AD  Cultural   win   Noble
44. Bjeurn           Khmer            25768  1942 AD  Space Race win   Prince
45. DigitalCraft     Egypt            22499  1867 AD  Space Race win   Warlord
46. Elbow_Jobertski  Inca             22367  1808 AD  Cultural   win   Warlord
47. Elbow_Jobertski  Maya             21143  1932 AD  Space Race win   Warlord
48. Mellus           Russia           17580  1982 AD  Domination win   Noble
49. dilettante       Native America   14866  1959 AD  Space Race win   Noble
50. dilettante       Khmer            11144  1936 AD  Cultural   win   Noble
51. topsecret        Egypt             8260  1963 AD  Space Race win   Chieftain
52. dcmort93         Rome              8102  1968 AD  Cultural   win   Chieftain
53. Tirinn           Aztec             7833  1907 AD  Space Race loss  Settler
54. dcmort93         Vikings           1872  2044 AD  Space Race loss  Chieftain

Code:

Weighted average scores of players:
A01. Rom_Addy        564717
A02. west45          351933
A03. grenobles       343555
A04. evil_spock      326902
A05. DesertPfox      267777
A06. monkybone       263932
A07. m00n            227857
A08. Gustave5436     211507
A09. Morholt         172970
A10. alhimik         152300
A11. Kadazzle        137150
A12. illram          109983
A13. stevoh          109898
A14. yendor          108318
A15. gram123         102981
A16. zbgayumn         96300
A17. balatian         91326
A18. WithTea          78302
A19. Brenador         65845
A20. Archon_Wing      54277
A21. Elbow_Jobertski  44691
A22. QuantumPion      41751
A23. digitalcraft     20709
A24. Bjeurn           17140
A25. Makahlua         14662
A26. Tirinn            9617
A27. topsecret         7603
A28. dilettante        7413
A29. dcmort93          5624
A30. Mellus            3849

B01. Bugg123        428,130
B02. AbsoluteZero   292,290
B03. CaF            237,385
B04. Ororo          155,940

Code:

Weighted average scores of civilizations:
A01. Russia          311553
A02. India           198902
A03. Khmer           102554
A04. Egypt            74113
A05. Rome             68209
A06. Mongolia         55852
A07. Native America   55777
A08. Aztecs           55562
A09. Mali             51280
A10. China            48443
A11. Vikings          45978
A12. Maya             35631
A13. Inca             30600

B01. Zululand        260886

Overall weighted average group scores:
A 68215
B 260886

Note: the scores in the different groups are incomparable (yet). That is, the players played with different civilizations.

The average is the geometric average of the squared results. E.g. the average of 10000, 40000 and 67500 would be ³√(√10000 * √40000 * √67500)² = 30000.
The weighted average is the average divided by the average of the corresponding civilization(s)/player(s). When things start to get complex I will use the SUMXMY2-function in Excel.

Updates
14 April 2011 14:30 GMT
- Starting techs corrected (incl. who starts with a scout)
- Max number of turns and game speed corrected

18 April 2011 8:30 GMT
- Game speed set on epic

N.B.: in order to play this scenario from the game menu, put the file in Documents\My Games\Beyond the Sword\Saves\WorldBuilder
Good luck!

TheMeInTeam · Apr 9, 2011

Which civ has the hardest start per your estimation? Mali?

lymond · Apr 9, 2011

Posting this on the Strategy and Tips forum too might get more takers

Optical · Apr 10, 2011

Which S&T? Strategies and Tips or Stories and Tales? :lol:

EDIT: Where do we unzip this to? PublicMaps?
EDIT2: Nevermind, it's Saves/World Builder of course.
EDIT3: About to start an attempt at Mali. Wish me luck on my Spi/Fin game.

Matrix · Apr 10, 2011

Toughest are Maya, Inca and Khmer. Easiest are Russia and China.

TheMeInTeam · Apr 10, 2011

Matrix said:
Toughest are Maya, Inca and Khmer. Easiest are Russia and China.

No way.

Inca and Maya are a warrior rush away from holding an entire continent to themselves with enough raw commerce to hit IW in a timely fashion. Do you really think sitting on around 1/5 of the world's land with FIN, riverside cottages is "toughest"?! Topping that off is that monty is almost guaranteed to attack sitting bull there and leave you alone for a long time.

Egypt and mali both have way fewer cities that are viable peacefully early on, long rush distances, etc. Khmer I can see just because you jungle'd the hell out of its capitol so badly and it's near a civ with an amazing start.

Kid R · Apr 10, 2011

Interesting idea giving all civs 2 settlers - presumably we are intended to make use of our map knowledge when settling, while the AIs just muddle by. I think that will throw open any knee-jerk ideas about which starts are best.

I'll definitely give some of them a try anyway.

Spoiler :

TheMeInTeam · Apr 10, 2011

Kid R said:
Interesting idea giving all civs 2 settlers - presumably we are intended to make use of our map knowledge when settling, while the AIs just muddle by. I think that will throw open any knee-jerk ideas about which starts are best.

I'll definitely give some of them a try anyway.

Spoiler :

Sury's start doesn't seem particularly difficult - even without moving Yaso we can get the China problem nicely under control by turn 6...

View attachment 287220

It's not that sury's start is particularly hard, but if you look at the others there aren't ANY hard ones. One of them is going to be "hardest", and I'd argue that is indeed Khmer although certainly Mali competes.

Kid R · Apr 10, 2011

Well Matrix did say all civs have a fairish start. Mali looks marginally hardest to me but the second settler will make a big difference because 4 or 5 health resources can now be reeled in quickly and get those financial floods ticking over.

Oh well, the only thing for it is to see how they play out in practice

Edit: Re. the starting tech thread where people were talking up super early pottery from starting with the wheel, Mali is IMO the only civ where pottery first can make sense (because Fin obv).

RG6EX · Apr 10, 2011

Giving this a go. Haven't done things like this before so would kindly take advice in what format to post my final scores when I'm done.

Matrix · Apr 11, 2011

Just post score, victory type (if any) and final date. Would be nice to see a screenshot of the map too.

lymond · Apr 11, 2011

What's the deal with starting techs? They appear different than what is normal for the civ.

Matrix · Apr 11, 2011

Errr, they shouldn't be. Perhaps it's still the starting techs as in Civ4 vanilla or Civ4 Warlords?

MarigoldRan · Apr 11, 2011

Awwwww. You made it impossible to warrior rush. Except possibly with the Incans....

HorribleHarald · Apr 12, 2011

I just made similar challenge myself with 17 medieval civs. All of them are in Eurasia and with holy cities (barbarian). It's fun to play it for a change.

MarigoldRan · Apr 12, 2011

YOU CAN'T TRADE TECHS IN THIS SCENARIO!!!

(Crap).

P.S. The Vikings are awesome on this map. After axe-rushing the Russians and the Romans, you've got Europe all to yourself. Also took Egypt using the remaining axes with city raider and spears to protect against chariot attack. Aggressive + Financial works well with this strat.

P.S.S. A single warrior in computer territory can really slow down the computer early on. Just walk it around in the woods and the hills and pillage stuff.

avw94 · Apr 12, 2011

Looks fun, a change of pace from the standard "Earth 18 Civs" map. I'll have to give this one a shot.

MarigoldRan · Apr 13, 2011

The scenario ends in 800 AD. I.e. SOON.

Note to self: in future, check the settings.

P.S. Berserkers are pretty sweet, especially if the computer can't trade techs (and hence takes longer for them to get feudalism). Berserkers are like praets, except they start with combat 1, have a 10% city attack bonus, and get a 50% melee bonus. Until the computers get crossbows, they're unstoppable.

P.S.S. Europe has a lot less resources then what I was hoping for.

TheMeInTeam · Apr 13, 2011

In the end we will have:
- A table of results, with civilizations in the columns and the players in the rows.
- A list of the weighted average of players their results.
- A list of the weighted average of results per civilization.

Are you weighting by speed, too? If you don't, everyone must play on mara to be competitive with mara games.

What are the civ weights?

Major note:

This world builder save is a tad sloppy and needs to be worked up to be a viable thing for people playing on different speeds. I'm assuming the changes to starting units is intentional, but:

- Fix gamespeed = 0 so that people can use different speeds
- Fix maxturns = 0 so that people playing on epic or marathon don't win or lose a time victory in the 1500's or something crazy

Errr, they shouldn't be. Perhaps it's still the starting techs as in Civ4 vanilla or Civ4 Warlords?

The maxturns = 460 era suggests that this wbsave file is from before BTS originally, yes.

How strong are the difficulty weights? For example winning this on deity at all is a lot more challenging than getting even a 1500-1600 AD domination on monarch. Do the weights reflect that?

It might be better if you mandate a speed/difficulty outright so that you actually have some reasonably comparable games.

Matrix · Apr 14, 2011

Ah, I see you noticed a few bugs! I'll make the change a.s.a.p..
My thought was that people can choose the speed and difficulty and play a normal Civ-game, so the max number of turns should change accordingly.
Players may figure out themselves what's the best way to achieve the highest score.
I'll check the starting techs too.

Thanks for the remark!

Earth challenge (huge size)

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