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Earth_realsimV1-18 civ realistic and balance game play is the aim

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Pre-made Maps' started by niust, Dec 8, 2005.

  1. niust

    niust Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2005
    Messages:
    80
    Location:
    Bangkok, Thailand

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Final Update before the Civ5---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    -Update to Ver 2.1.0 for BTS:p

    This is my intended last update…. AND should be my best effort to improve the map’s realism and game play. I have be playing civ from the beginning, 20 years on.. like it so much ended up make a living teaching world politics .. SO..All the credits go to game makers.. and the all the map creators......I will not claimed any credits for this map..

    This is a very old map... i did play on n off for many years.. and always make improvments over time... since there were so many changes over the year i will not list the details any more... the map were incoperated into many mod packs over the years... now i just hope to bring out the clean map for the last time for every one.. my last game used mod like LOR 'legend of revolution' with work well with this :)

    enjoys!
    niust
    August/14/2010

    P.S.
    the package included 5 maps.. can play with standard or mod game
    -Earth_Realism 10 civ preposition
    -Earth_Realism 18 civ preposition
    -Earth_Realism Clean--- no preposition 18 civ
    -Earth_Realism Clean--- no preposition 34 civ
    -Earth_Realism Clean--- no preposition 50 civ (need a right mod for it)
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Installation Instructions - Unzip it to where you keep maps… like the examples here…

    C:\Users\ying\Documents\My Games\Beyond the Sword\PublicMaps

    or \My Documents\My Games\Beyond the Sword\Saves\WorldBuilder

    or your MODs private map folder..

    D:\Civilization 4\Beyond the Sword\Mods\LoR\PrivateMaps

    - Load MOD with many new civilizations you can play or you can just play it with custom scenario option
    - Chose single , then, customs scenario setting for your preference civ and game condition
    - Start game and enter World builder option if you want to fix start location , which I recommended because the computer put every one in a very bad location. And I want real location like in reality.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    VER 2.1.0 details

    ..it is BTS last patch compatible… feel free to change my file..or update and post it ok....:goodjob: the Map is a 'HUGE' map….. similar to that of RYAN world map for 18 civs that come with your original game. but….. GIGANTIC improvement for its ‘accuracy’ and ‘game play’… done by me and MANY others players on this forum. literally more that hundreds of hours of game tasting… here is its features. For details change please read all from each version improvement record.

    Geographic change
    - enlarge than reality of Europe for more accurate land shape and so..more… areas for more cities
    - adding many majors and minor rivers around the world as it should be
    - put right mountain pass and land bridge and sea lanes for strategic improvement
    - less future junk cities by AI around the north. as it covers it with ice.
    - Tropical Jungle are also important resource as it should be. So added more forest in the tropical too.
    - Food resources as it should be in the historical location for right population density.
    - Industrial resources places to encourage competition and conflict and colonialism. For example…Oil are mostly in Middle East.
    - Trade resource place to encourage trade…for example… silk only are in china. Spice in South and South East Asia…fur in north America.. more silver in japan.. ivory for India… Europe have wine …African and Australia have lot of riches … ….better get it quick..etc…
    - Most good spot, resources have been rearrange for great cities.. you have to look around….TIP..don’t have to put city far form each others in main dense areas as it have enough food to go around…just have to focus on health and happiness of your cities by … trade ..or concur need resources…
    Game play
    - Start location change for so each civ can have at least a few good city to start with before conflict… hopefully
    - equal 0 tech start... everyone got freedom to chose their own research path earlier.

    NOTE…
    ..leaders are fixed… change yourself if you want by text edit this map…Barbarians are strong… they will progress like others civ and they will built world wonders and found religions…..and probably get rid of a few civ AI … or ever U…. haha…. But this is a map … not a MOD… it will not change the game… if you want less strong barbarian you
    have to edit game file yourself… not map… read further for more detail.

    Update to Ver 2.1.0…..Aug 14, 2010

    changes from the last versions that i can still remembered
    -rivers update in china, india
    -Japan souther islands reconfigure
    -resource redistributions in most continents
    -many civ starting location improved . n more
    -no more historic Babarians 'civ' or cities in prebuild map... they will come later by bts game engine..So i suggest mod that got Babarian Civ incoperated in it, like LOR..
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    Update to Ver 1.5.3…..May 30, 2006
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    This quick up date from comments in last few weeks.
    - Beef up Minor Civs (AKA barbarians) So, they should give you more pain..;)
    - Land shape (Example..south of Japan, around Sinai, etc..and Many resources rearrange for better city placement.
    - More Wheat in Midwest US and Argentina.
    - Add many sea Barbarians to slow down sea expansion.. especially South East Asia for Japan
    - Horse resources in Spain and North Africa
    - One less Bar.. city in north of Persian
    - Redraw some rivers (ex.North Africa..add flood plan and forest near Gangi India..etc..)
    - And much ..More..
    This is how the game should run in general by AI
    -America expand west slowly.. Aztec and Inca do the same fighting others tribes in their land
    -Mali and Egypt should expand to the south
    -Persian and Arab and Greek should fight for Middle East..
    -India should expend east to SEA and north to Tibet or Afghan
    -China should be fighting with a lot of barbarian to expand
    -Japan should be expand to SEA island or invade Korea then China
    -Mongol should come to conflict with china or Russia
    -Russian should be fighting with German or expand east fight with Barbarians
    -Europe …same old game…. Too bad spain and rome never be aggressive in any game
    -France – England –German - Russian should be at war at one time…

    Tell me how it goes..:)


    -------------------------------------------------------
    Update to version 1.5 FINAL……May 16, 2006
    -----------------------------------------------------
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Ver 1.5 change details

    -location of many barbarian cities change for max resource potential
    -added ache in Sumatra
    -concentrated non food resource for historical accuracy and improve game play.
    -china, English, India, Persia location change for optimal lacation.
    -stone or marble only appropriate civ…like Egypt, greek, rome… ect……
    -America… Africa… South East Asia.. Australia.. have good resources.. needed to be colonized… 
    -seas lanes … red sea to mer… need a city … africa’s good hope … need sail…
    -few more mountain pass..
    -Major resources correction..like….oil…mostly MDE… uranium.only .siberia..north america and austra…silk only china… spice only South and SE asia..dye…not in Europe…silver and gold mostly Africa and America…
    -strengthen many civ start locations…especially the weak one in most test games…
    -weeken barbarians….less palace for less power…
    -more..but..forgot now… type too much..:)
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    ---------------------------------------------------
    to 1.5 ....read new thread
    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=171181



    Update Ver 1.4…… March 03, 2006:D

    This is update done by many Forumers all credits go to them. Map update to game current version for Marathons game. There much more Barbarians civilizations more than you can handle. If you do on Emperor then, good Lucks the following are the tribes that have been on. -

    By tbmes11
    -Moved Egypt settler a bit to the southwest and moved their resources to where the capital city can gain access to them. This allows a civilization to create a city where the suez canal is. A important trade route between Asia and Europe.
    -More plains for the Arab
    -Moved the settler for Spain back to the original start position where Madrid is. Added a extra piece of land near Barcelona's location so the CPU would build a city in that location more often.
    -Moved some resouces and rivers around in Europe so CPU would build cities more closely to the real Europe.
    -Moved some resources and rivers around in China so they would build cities more closely to the actual locations of Cities.

    By boazman
    Added: many more barbarians, in particular in Africa and around China. The number of units in each barbarian city is reduced to make it easier for human players. Civs no longer have a scout with them from the start, as I don't like civilizations get in touch with each other too early. Made some changes in North America too, hoping to make it impossible to cross the Atlantic with Galley (currently they can go the Greenland route), although it is still possible to reach Asia by Galley

    The Galley thing, I changed the Labrador Sea (the sea between N.America and Greenland) from coast to ocean, so it should be impossible to cross with Galley. The Greenland route should no longer work, in theory (at least with human players, I'm not sure if AI can cheat on that). some terrain features and fix some river problems, relocate the starting position of Chinese and Spanish.

    Also, list of Barbarians added:

    In East Asia:
    Goguryeo (Northern Korea)
    Manchus
    Yuet (Southern China, near Canton)
    Hmong (South East China, near Kunming)
    Tibetans

    In Central Asia/Middle East:
    Gokturks (Kazakhstan)
    Kipchiks (Ertis River)
    Samarkand (it's intended to be Sogdiana, but Samarkand is much more famous, right?)
    Alans (Caucasus)
    Tatars (Volga River)
    Lydia (Turkish Coast)
    Assyria

    In Africa:
    Nubian moved to where it should be, upper Nile
    Aksum (Ethopia)
    Bunyoro-Kitara (Lake Victoria)
    Great Zimbabwe
    Kongo
    Tingis (North Africa, Morocco)

    In America:
    Guarani (S. America, Uruguay)
    Chickasaws (N. America)


    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Update Ver 1.3... DECEMBER 22, 2005

    - Add MORE civilizations (AKA barbarians); Native Americans in both north and south: Cherokee at great plain, Navajo in the Southwest, Tupinumba and Kayapo the Amazon. Maori to New Zealand. Ainu to Northern Japan.. They will give fight for the AI and player to prevent too quick expansion.
    - Add resource and redraw some plain for central china old civ cities
    - Change area around Tajikistan and East Uzbekistan to reflex real geography. More fertile and food source for many ancient and most important cities in the world were here.
    - Fixed landmark name mistake... get rid of many volcano names, which should not be there at all.
    - Move location of settler of Spain a bit northeast to prevent AI to create only one city in Spain. Give them more space.
    - Strengthen Saladin starting position.
    - More land and resource for south island of New Zealand
    - Weaken Viking location a bit.. too much food.
    ==> Note <==
    - Major Barbarians have palace and wall in to reflex that they really are important civilizations. Nomadic and aggressive barbarians may have barrack to begin with.. Seaborne may have boat and harbor. REMENBER... they do build wonders.
    - If you find more barbarian then there are in this map listed, then it is a computer generated one.
    - THIS map does not make them weaker or stronger... U can make the barbarian weaker or stronger by edit 'GlobalDefines' that I attached it with the ZIP ..put it to your:

    My Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\customassets\xml

    or the your MOD file at where your have it in ...... assets\xml

    - You can change the leader yourself by edit this map file by XML editor or other program... just change the Name and the rest..

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------

    Update to VER 1.2.1 DEC 16, 2005
    minor update.
    - Name inka ..to inca
    - Change American CIV leaders to G. Washington.
    - fix too early contacts
    Note.. to change leader.. we can only do it manually by editing the file by xml editor or other programs.



    Update to VER 1.2 DEC 12, 2005

    - From some comments, the ‘Barbarians’ got changed to be less strong from the beginning… They will not just wipe you out that quick ... ;)
    - Land bridge... at today Turkey with Europe
    - Change name of some barbarians to be more historically accurate…
    Ethiopia to Nubia, Tamin to Cholas, Sila to Silla, Srijava to Srivijaya, Cathey to Carthage. Please do Wikipidia for more information…

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Update to ver 1.1 DEC 10, 2005
    -------------------------------------------
    - Fix some resources mistake... (Rice in the ocean )
    - Typo mistake. Name of leaders
    - redone south American civ starting location...less peaks... more food source... for balancing
    - add more ice terrain in north america... less junk cities
    - more fish resource to various locations... boost some marginal lands.

    =>Notes<==
    -barbarian with cities are 'Minor' civilizations.. they are strong, Just like the others AI... expect them to do a good fight like in real history... they can wipe out others civilizations and can build wonders.. they can not be push over easily... most barbarians had really got finished off during the peak of industrialization at the end of 1800's in real history.
    -Need more barbarians ... let me know ..
    -So far there are- Viking(in Scandinavia), Hun (central Eurasia), Ethiopia (east aferica), Zulu (south Africa), Babylon(middle east), Tamin (south india), Sila(east eurasia), Funan and srijava(southeast Eurasia).. they will stop unrealistic expansion of some AI, but they are also the targets for conquest too...

    -----------------------------------------
    HI, folks. First, I have to claim that map is not my creation, so I don't claim as mine and anyone can use it and change it freely I don’t really believe in 'property rights' anyway, but that's a different story. This is a public file for every one to play and change, I got no credit and don’t want one, but I will refer to who I get the idea from though. I've been reading the forum for years but never got the chance to post. So, here we go. This is a HUGE EARTH map for 18 CIVs. Fit for long game play and good spec machine… but my is not good, just a Tablet PC with 1.4 G with built in Intel graphic card 64M, and it works alright. Play it all the way to space race many times.
    This is an updated version map from rhye Earth map that come with the stock game
    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=134245
    And the version of more real and enlarged Europe for game plays by RobSoyka
    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=137599

    I try to change this map according to my experience from extensive game plays during this past month, 40 hours a week (O.K. I got no life , at least until I got tried to this game), exclusively on various Earth-maps of different versions that people put it out here. I aim to have a map that represent "real" world during past 6000 years and create a balance game play for all civilizations. It is not objective map in anyway, but every change or addition had its reason. So, I welcome any comment and suggestion to make a better Earth map for the game. So, we can all enjoys this great series. These are the list of many of what I have add so far, most of it anyway. I have a back ground in politic and world history, so I welcome any good discussion about it. By the way, English is not my first language, so pardons me in advanced. (Thai and Chinese and Japanese are welcome)

    Install it to where you worldbuilder save game is. my is at:
    D:\My Documents\My Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\Saves\WorldBuilder

    Ver1.09 proven and it should work with most mods. When you play click Single player>Scenarios>and chose Earth_realismV1

    Version 1.0

    -add large ICE terrains to the North both Eurasia and America, and a tip bit south of Chile: so less junk cities by the AI that slowdown game play.

    -add more Oasis to may desert: enhance game positions of desert civilizations, and historically many desert and dry plain today, used to be more fertile land in the past and have many great cities on it. Like along silk routes of central Eurasia.

    -add more forest in many areas, especially Northern Europe region.( I will not called Europe as a continent for many discussable reasons) For, it is historically very much a forested area until more people live there and clear the forest. But that does not mean European factions is less advantage, coz they got mote forests to rush, right?

    -add many ‘barbarian’ civilizations core city (of course they are not barbarian, its just that we cannot have all the great civilizations in history put in the game at the same time) to the map to populate empty space of the map. Historically, most empires were created out of conquests, not just send some one to populate an empty land. For those ‘Barbarians’, sometime they got assimilated. Many times they were simply got genocides. Want examples? Should I add more barbarian, let me know and tell me why. I still don’t claim to be objective. This is not a historical game anyway.

    -Add a lot of goody huts. Every body love goody huts right? Well, as long as I don’t get barbarians. Every factions should have a few huts to get a kick start. And bunch more on remote places to encourage explorations. As an Earth map, human player got an advantage of knowing which countries is where… unless you are really bad with geography like Gorge…..you know who-_-

    -add forest to jungle. You know why?, because jungle is the world largest sources of wooden material historically. It is just wrong to get a few resources back when you chop them. Most jungles in the world were cut for the resources, not for nothing. Add some forests are meant to balance it out in the game and it is good for civilizations near jungles.

    -OK.. Too lazy to type anymore. But sure have changed a lot more….. Tell me what you think and want to see in the map.. Give me reason and I or U can change it for next version…

    -OK.. less lazy today... type some more...

    - Add ... more realistic resources distributions.... like 'real' world

    - More silver in Japan ... they exported silver during last few century almost a much as S.America

    - more Gems in Jugle of Congo and Brazil also more gold where they are in the world...... so more attractive to Settle...

    - more fish or sheep to boost some civilizations that need more food.. so they can fight better...

    - Most people only know, The Mercator map, in this game at least... It is not a good map.. if not the worst map to present to real world ...Like India Sub-continent is smaller then greenland... or even Britain!!.... common... it is as big as Europe... But.. I am here to have fun... SO.. I can live with it... but still need to adjust to make it closer to 'reality'.. ..game plays add to the formula... Europe have be Enlarge even more to make room for each civ a few city to begin with.... I will post tips for some civ later...

    - Reshape many locations to be more like the real location...and/ or add resource to reflex real world populations distribution....... FOR example.... JAVA island in indonesia... 120 millions people there .. great seaborn cilizations before 15 century.. so... Need more food to create that conditions.....Also other places... like... S.E. asia... Southern India... Mesopotamia... Greek.. Italy.... and more...

    -Done for now but will explain more details later about barbarian civs. will post some tips now..
    ---------------------------------------------------
    TIPS>>>

    To be the king ... you need a god... so hear me .. my fools advice..

    1)YIP.... don’t' play with noble.... common... you are better than that.. go with the king or emperor... if you beat it... then play the SUCKER level... beat the game even they cheat you.... BECAUSE you are the MAN.. literally
    2)Build and Expand ... repeat .. Build and Expand... the people who sit still are the waiting losers.... EXPAND if you got no land... Take some one else!.... EXPAND if you got no money... Take some one else! ... WAR DOES PAY like the real ROMAN... and Today American..
    3)When you are weak ... please them.. when you are strong CRUSH them... no kindness will help you to win the game... BACK STAB your friends..... don't you love it when you see their face when they just realized what coming ... the moment your 'Allies' busy fighting a war with some one else... Take his city at his weak frank... before he can sue for peace with others.. AI got no emotions.... SO shouldn't we...
    4) ENGLAND.... you are weak...accept IT.... BUT don' t act like one.... the DAN.. FRANCE is just there..... RAID it ... Take it... when ever you can... passive player will lost... and reclaim your roots.... you ARE viking remember? So... take the Scand...too good land .. I tell you..
    5) FRANCE... YOU ARE strong... can build all the wonders you want .... but... that the eazy part... you got more enemy then you can handle.... after 2 cities... better... prepare for war.... and don't wait util they come for U..
    6) ROME... didn't you own the world..... 3 cities max.... go for iron..barrack... boom... build your army... not the city... then take over Europe... use the money to finance more wars... remember ..... Hadrian was the end of ROME... coz he build the wall..
    7) GREEK... you are weak ... Really... so... what did Alexander do?.... take on the strong one.... for there land and gold.... better do it fast .. before... they become too strong elsewhere... head east or west it yours choice... BUT WHY NOT BOTH
    8) German.... just like FRANCE... great... civ... with bad neigbors... SO... what do you do when you dont like your neighbors... give them HELL BUT one house at a time.... OK.... I saw most game ... german will always get beat up by 3 other CIVS... not a pretty sight..
    10) Russian... your future is bright... you can have all the land you want until china.... one of the strongest civ.... if you play it right.... just worry about those pestky.. persian.... they are right under you belly.... better take them out while you can... build and expand is the key...
    11) China... YOU are the world power.... act like one.... let all those barbarians out there know who got the Mandate of Heaven... build you empire.... you got one of the best land in the world.... you can have all you want until.... like history.... you don't look out side your land.... and they will come for U... the JAPANESE.. the MONGOL.... OR even the INDIAN .... don't be passive... WAKE UP
    12) JAPANESE.... MONGOL.... your are almost the same race.... really.... so just have to Invade China... and Kick those arrogance SOB...then the rest of the world... don't wait until they sinizied you like the real history.... your starting position is weak but can produce great army very quick...
    13) INDIA... top culture... good food.... but Damn IT... this is a game.... so don't have to act like one ..... it is up on you .... you can stay put and build... or create the EMPIRE THE SUN NEVER SET>>> sound familiar...
    14) THE REST.... well..... also the same advice..... don't just wait there until the cow comes home..... of course ... you dont have to be all the way aggressive.... but ... to win the game at my suggested level... you HAVE to be.... I was play in CHINA and sit tide once.... GERMANY just boom... will go to SPACE RACE... I have no choice ... I just have to invade them... not to lose to game ... with 200 millions modern army and airforce ... I have GERMANY as my province.... along with poor Russian INDIAN.. PERSIAN... as unintended casualties..... HOPE that not going to happen for real.....

    ***OK.. go enjoy the game.... and don't forget to tell me and every body how you have changed the HISTORY.......


    CHAO
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Lord_Iggy

    Lord_Iggy Tsesk'ihe

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    Yukon
    First post!

    Looks cool. I'll check it out soon.
     
  3. Jeff1787

    Jeff1787 Sarge

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    Jun 4, 2003
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    The Dog House
    Playing it now....great map so far!!!!!
     
  4. Haavards

    Haavards Chieftain

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    Interesting additions/changes! I'm gonna give it a try and give some feedback!
     
  5. C_ivil-I-ZATION

    C_ivil-I-ZATION Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2005
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    Just some feedback.

    I played as Germany and was beaten to Christianity by a significant amount.

    I then restarted as Germany, a new game, and raced to Christianity and was again beaten by many turns.

    It was some nation in a distant land.

    So I think the game needs to be checked.

    Cheers.
     
  6. CyberChrist

    CyberChrist You caught my attention

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    The Matrix
    Perhaps the Barbarians needs to be adjusted a little (reduction in startup power). Babylon managed to found Judaism and build the Pyramids and they then proceeded to wipe out both Persians and Egyptians in my initial Monarch game.

    I stopped after that since it didn't feel realistic or balanced to me at all ;) :p
     
  7. niust

    niust Chieftain

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    HI, What level are you playing on? I like to play on Emperor or Monarch. But always be able to keep up with the AI, even they got less time to research... you might be unlucky twice. With this map... Some civilization can be a power house, like the Russian or the Mali... Expansion is the key if you play on the harder level... Stay put and they will just past you ... litterally.. with the Bombs :lol:
     
  8. niust

    niust Chieftain

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    HI,
    Again. I would like to know which level you guys been playing... about the barbarians... I have to check it.... Some are strong ....some are not.... Babylon is diffinitly the strong one.... I also know that the AI have hard time to deal with Barbarian in general.... I use to play with 'insane Barbarian MOD' and during the game sometime they do wip a fews AI out.... :lol: ... i do like it that way.... BECAUSE... that what happen all the time in history...like CHINA ...ROME... both got their butt kick with Barbarian....right? NOW if more poeple think I need to tone down the "Barbarains", which by the way in CIV IV is really a 'minor'/unplayable factions whom I and others in the forums confirm that they can build WONDERS and have technology advancement like others AI, then when SOME 'civilized' races got in trouble.... it is fine by me...;)
     
  9. C_ivil-I-ZATION

    C_ivil-I-ZATION Chieftain

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    Nobel setting. Something is wrong. I always get Theology first, except 2 times, and both are your game.

    Thanks for the effort anyway.
     
  10. mayonaise

    mayonaise Chieftain

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    Oct 29, 2005
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    why is the fact that you got beaten to christianity an issue? you realize he made a map not a mod right? i cant even fathom what on earth you're expecting
     
  11. Gr3yHound

    Gr3yHound Mr.MapView

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2004
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    395
    there&#180;s till a few roads somewhere, is that on purpose?
    66:14
    72:30
    77:41
    82:40
    ...
    it&#180;s always where the starting positions seem to be (where the default units are placed)

    and in the southern himalaya, direction indonesia some mountains still got forest. nothing bad, but mayb unecessary stuff soaking a bit performance? =)
     
  12. niust

    niust Chieftain

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    Yep, from the city that they found... so the road are there... the tree.. around mountains seems normal.. it is the graphic of the game I think.... don't find it to reduce game speed... hay.. and the new unofficial pactch for graphic is out... I used it.. very good for huge map.... every one should try..
     
  13. niust

    niust Chieftain

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    Will update to ver 1.1 in an hour.....
     
  14. niust

    niust Chieftain

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    DONE.... Please give me feed back... anything need to be add or delete.. or change... I really want more names and locations or where should it be for more 'Minor civilizations' ... chao
     
  15. Bast

    Bast Protector of Cats

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    I'm going to try this now. Thanks.
     
  16. Bast

    Bast Protector of Cats

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    Again I played as Spain and had already made contact with America in my first turn!! :eek:
     
  17. Bast

    Bast Protector of Cats

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  18. niust

    niust Chieftain

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    :eek: That the first time I ever heard that ... :lol: how is that possible.... did he sent a boat.... ??? well ..let me know how it work out later..choa
     
  19. Tommy1234567890

    Tommy1234567890 Warlord

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    Jul 17, 2005
    Messages:
    298
    Location:
    Argentina
    i played in an earth map it took me like 9-8 turns to cross the atlantic!
     
  20. niust

    niust Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2005
    Messages:
    80
    Location:
    Bangkok, Thailand
    Is that good or bad?:confused:
     

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