earthly terraforming

Would you like to see this?

  • Yes

    Votes: 3 75.0%
  • No

    Votes: 1 25.0%

  • Total voters
    4

Pitboss

Prince
Joined
Aug 9, 2006
Messages
308
Location
Belgium
Civ 6 is already familiar with floodplains which can be improved by seaonsly/occasionaly drowned land. Which can be regulated through a dam, in order to prevent damage to districts. But why not take it a bit further?

Player options
  • Lava defensive wall : limits/redirects the impact of volcanic eruptions
  • Oasification : remove a desert
  • Desertification : create a desert
  • Reforestation : (re)create a forest
  • Deforestation : remove a forest
  • Artificial lakes : create a lake
  • Land reclamation : create land
  • Tectonic manipulation : create mountains
Game (disablable) options
  • Land reclamation through vulcanic eruptions
  • Land disappearance through (vulcanic) erosion
  • Tectonic activity adds land, mountains, fissures, ravines, etc.
 
Deforestation and reforestation are already in the game. Artificial lakes and reservoirs are generally too small to be relevant on Civ's scale; I'd assume their presence as part of the reason you can build farms away from fresh water. The rest are beyond human capabilities in a historic timeframe. I wouldn't mind seeing a more dynamic ecosystem in the future, though, with climatic fluctuations like the Medieval Climate Optimum and the Little Ice Age.
 
Artificial lakes and reservoirs are generally too small to be relevant on Civ's scale;
Isn't that basically what happens when you build a Dam district, at least graphically looking it looks like it?

I do think it would be interesting that undeveloped land that goes through a number of droughts eventually could turn into desert, but I don't think that should be controlled by the player.
 
Isn't that basically what happens when you build a Dam district, at least graphically looking it looks like it?
Yes, but I assumed he was talking about an artificial lake not associated with a dam like the Seven Seas Lagoon at Disney World.

I do think it would be interesting that undeveloped land that goes through a number of droughts eventually could turn into desert, but I don't think that should be controlled by the player.
I wouldn't mind if deserts and tundra could expand or retract (very, very slowly--these things generally happen on geological not historical timeframes, the desertification of the Sahara being a notable exception), but I'm not sure how to implement it in a way that's satisfying. It takes a supercomputer to model climates, and an approximation may produce strange results. Some things that wouldn't be overly burdensome to simulate would be current and wind patterns (some might be a little odd, but you could at least simulate the broad patterns), plus boosting fertility of the windward side of mountains and reducing fertility in the rain shadow on the leeward side.
 
Artificial lakes and reservoirs are generally too small to be relevant on Civ's scale; I'd assume their presence as part of the reason you can build farms away from fresh water.

That is one of the possible advantages. They could also serve to help connect waterways, as a defensive structures or to cultivate aquatic resources (like fish, seaweeds).

The rest are beyond human capabilities in a historic timeframe. I wouldn't mind seeing a more dynamic ecosystem in the future, though, with climatic fluctuations like the Medieval Climate Optimum and the Little Ice Age.

Human capabilities could be different in other possible timelines.
It be nice if civ did not (en)force the human perspective.
Purely because it limits the possibilities.

+1 on your suggestion for more settings like climate ages and biospheres.

Yes, but I assumed he was talking about an artificial lake not associated with a dam like the Seven Seas Lagoon at Disney World.

Right you are.

I do think it would be interesting that undeveloped land that goes through a number of droughts eventually could turn into desert, but I don't think that should be controlled by the player.

As long as it remains reasonable/realistic I think it should be possible for the player to do so for specific cases. Like reclaiming swamps, reworking mountain and hill sides.

I wouldn't mind if deserts and tundra could expand or retract (very, very slowly--these things generally happen on geological not historical timeframes, the desertification of the Sahara being a notable exception), but I'm not sure how to implement it in a way that's satisfying.

It takes a supercomputer to model climates, and an approximation may produce strange results. Some things that wouldn't be overly burdensome to simulate would be current and wind patterns (some might be a little odd, but you could at least simulate the broad patterns), plus boosting fertility of the windward side of mountains and reducing fertility in the rain shadow on the leeward side.

Existing mechanics could be coopted for these purposes. For example when a number of tiles is hit by a drought a few times in a row, the terrain could start to to alter.

The interaction of weather with the environment could create for some interesting considerations.

You could do nearly all that in Civ2, called terraforming.

Alpha Centauri offered quite a few options as well. Which seem to be slowly coming back/to in civ.
 
Human capabilities could be different in other possible timelines.
It be nice if civ did not (en)force the human perspective.
Purely because it limits the possibilities.
I'd prefer we assume the alternate earth is still governed by the laws of physics. :p Not to say I'm opposed to more anthropogenic geography, but while we can create small islands and small hills we can't add/remove mountains, manipulate tectonic plates, or create/remove deserts. Some of these things might have been added in Civ6's future era, but given how much tedium it added to the already tedious late game I'm hopeful we won't be seeing that return in Civ7 unless the devs find a way around the perpetual 4X problem of the tedious late game.
 
Not to say I'm opposed to more anthropogenic geography, but while we can create small islands and small hills we can't add/remove mountains, manipulate tectonic plates, or create/remove deserts.

Some of these things might have been added in Civ6's future era, but given how much tedium it added to the already tedious late game I'm hopeful we won't be seeing that return in Civ7 unless the devs find a way around the perpetual 4X problem of the tedious late game.

I agree that the late game is quite tedious.
That's why it would be interesting to think outside the classic civ narrative.

Rather then trying to mimic the past, the start could be set in a future.
Where settlers from a distant world would start anew.

They start with some basic abilities that are compatible with the planet.
Which could be a number of terraforming options.

Due to major differences with the previous planet all other skills have to be revised.
Leaving the door open the reprise the tech tree.

A planet that could deviate from the typical Eathlike model in a number of ways.
 
Rather then trying to mimic the past, the start could be set in a future.
Where settlers from a distant world would start anew.
That might be an interesting game, but it wouldn't be Civilization--and given how poorly Beyond Earth was received I wouldn't be too optimistic about a new sci-fi 4X from Firaxis. (It is an interesting niche that's left unfilled, though. Most sci-fi 4X games focus on space empires rather than planetary development.)
 
That might be an interesting game, but it wouldn't be Civilization--and given how poorly Beyond Earth was received I wouldn't be too optimistic about a new sci-fi 4X from Firaxis. (It is an interesting niche that's left unfilled, though. Most sci-fi 4X games focus on space empires rather than planetary development.)

I can't deny that Beyond Earth came to mind while typing my previous comment. However my suggestion would avoid the need to create a new and similar game. By offering an alternative start option, like advanced start, in order to incorporate the basic terraforming skills. Perhaps a thought for civ 7 since it'll require some overhauling of the current mechanics.

Another approach could be to unlock a number of technologies a lot sooner. Tunneling could become available after discovering tools, it just takes a whole lot longer to finish a tunnel. The further up the tech tree, the quicker your tunnels will be build. Taking into account whether you're trying to tunnel through a mountain or a hill.

This would however limit the number of terraforming options you have access to from the get-go.

Unless the existing world is littered with ancient artificts from the last time the planet could sustain human live. A new incarnaton of humankind emerges. But that brings it quite close to resembling Beyond Earth.

It does offer potential for a new game mode where you collect research, through artifacts, rather then doing it yourself.
 
Civ 6 is already familiar with floodplains which can be improved by seaonsly/occasionaly drowned land. Which can be regulated through a dam, in order to prevent damage to districts. But why not take it a bit further?

Player options
  • Lava defensive wall : limits/redirects the impact of volcanic eruptions
  • Oasification : remove a desert
  • Desertification : create a desert
  • Reforestation : (re)create a forest
  • Deforestation : remove a forest
  • Artificial lakes : create a lake
  • Land reclamation : create land
  • Tectonic manipulation : create mountains
Game (disablable) options
  • Land reclamation through vulcanic eruptions
  • Land disappearance through (vulcanic) erosion
  • Tectonic activity adds land, mountains, fissures, ravines, etc.

As stated, most of the "player options" not really possible given the current state of technology BUT they have been part of 'ordinary' Climate Change throughout human history:

9 - 10,000 BCE: first Agriculture, or the 'real' Start of Game

7000 - 2000 BCE: Sea levels world wide rise an average of 200 feet as glacial ice melts: radically changing coastlines in some places, inundating large marsh areas in some places and creating new ones elsewhere.

6500 BCE: Up to this time, Britain was connected to mainland Europe by a large lat grassland called Doggerland, a prime hunting, waterfowl and fishing source for Europeans. In the last glacial ice melt, this gets submerged, forming the English Channel and turning Britain into an island.

6200 BCE: Lake Ojibway Glacial Lake Collapse. A large (1000 km wide) lake formed of melting glacier water has its ice-walls collapse and dumps an estimated 50,000 cubic kikometers of ice-cold fresh watere into the North Atlantic from southern Canada. This modifies the entire current pattern of the North Atlantic, causing wetter, colder weather across northern Europe but a wind shift that brings a drught lasting several centuries to the middle east and Anatolia - where several early cities, like Catal Huyok, are abandoned as a rsult and farmers and gth agriculture technologies move north into Europe.

6000 - 5000 BCE: as post-glacial warming finished off in the northern hemisphere, hardwood forests spread all across Europe to the Urals, bringing oak and lime trees which were preferred by honey bees, which therefore also expanded: Forestation and some side effects usually not thought of.

5680 BCE: Mount Mazama volcanic erution blows most of the mountain away, creates Crater Lake in Oregon, USA - "Natural Wonders" are not permanent either!

4800 - 3800 BCE: Piora Oscillation: Solar insolation hits Europe, much colder weather, glacieers advance in the Alps, 4100 - 3900 BCE extremely cold years which kill off lots of forest area and turn it into plains/prairie, more flooding in Danube and other river valleys.

4000 - 3900 BCE: End of the African Humid Period: Arabia and the Sahara until now (since at least 12,000 BCE) have been relatively wet savannah/plains with rivers, lakes, supporting large herds and even agriculture. It all dries up within 2 centuries creating the modern deserts in both area, and incidentally driving African peoples into Egypt and possibly Arabian peninsula populations north into Mesopotamia.

1750 BCE: Great Dam of Marib - in modern Yemen, 1900 feet long, built for irrigation and by 500 BCE was providing an artificial lake and cropland for over 50,000 people - a significant population for the early Classical Era.

1287 CE: A sea surge breaks through barrier dunes and seawalls, inundating a large area of Holland and creating the ZuiderZee or Southern Sea - and drowning an estimated 50,000 people.

Loss/Modification of Ports.
Wonder why several coastal tows in modern Britain used to be important Medieval/Renaissance Ports and now aren't? Silting up of harbors, change of currents, larger ships - and the classical port areas of Alexandria, Egypt are now far under water because of sea level rise and land subsiding there. ANYTHING along the coast is subject to change in historical times on a local basis.

Canals:
People have been channeling rivers and draining marshlands since at least Classical Era (in China, Mesopotamia and elsewhere) - in fact, the earliest building of 'canals' was to straighten out rivers and get around rapids to improve river freight traffic - started in Egypt around a Nile cataract as early as 1900 BCE.

Finally, we can (sort of) Remove Mountains: modern Open Pit mechanized mining techniques make huge open pits that are visible from Space, and have turned several (small) mountains/hills into flat land or Pits.

So, Very Important changes to the map and terrain have been taking place on both a long and relatively (3 - 10 turns) short term basis throughout the time scale of the game, but only a fraction of it is caused by people, most of it requires Reactions by people and civilizations, and so should be in the game.
 
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