East Asia mod?

[Yoda Power]

I agree the idea to have different chinese dynasties is controversial modding decision, but I want to try it none the less. Another cool thing about it is that I can try and make the civs more like how these dynasties actually was. For example if you have a generic China, then probably all traits would fit them in some way or another, but with splitted dynasties I can model them differently.
Besides China has been split into states so many times, that I don't think it hurts accuracy that much.

I guess I could just call Nanyue Viet instead. Where exactly would it's starting position be then?

Also I decided to throw in some more nomad civs, just have top figure out which ones.

 

[Yoda Power]

Flavour

As any good mod, this mod should have flavour too, with specific techs. I don't want to go the same road as MEM though and have specific techs for each civ. Instead I will introduce religions as the main flavour option, giving unique techs, buildings and goverments. Each civ can only start with four techs, and this is how I will usethat space.

There will also be a difference between nomadic and civilized civ's. I will explain later what exactly my thought's on this is.

Tech I: Starting tech ffrom tech tree.
Tech II: Civilized/nomad.
Tech III: Religion 1.
Tech IV: Religion 2.


These are the religions I'm considering putting in, so each civ will have two main religions.

Buddhism
Daoism
Confuzianism (spelled wrong I know)
Hinduism
Shamaism
Shintoism
Islam

These combinations of religion and civilized/nomadic civs + unique flavour units should create a great range of flavour imo.

 

[Ogedei_the_Mad]

I guess I could just call Nanyue Viet instead. Where exactly would it's starting position be then?

The capital of Nanyue / Nam Viet was at Panyu, which is near present-day Guangzhou. The capital of Dai Viet and precursor Viet states was at Hanoi. If you need any more ideas on civs, techs, city improvements, and flavor units, I'll be adding more to my info thread.

 

[Yoda Power]

Yes, I think I'd better spend some of my day gowing through Ogedei's and Blue's threads.

 

[Ogedei_the_Mad]

Just a thought on the leader for the Viets here:

Trieu Da / Zhao Tuo is a bit controversial for a Viet leader since he was a Qin general he represents a Chinese incursion to some. A more interesting figure would be Trung Trac, one of the Trung sisters. Trung Trac and her sister Trung Nhi established themselves as queens for a very short while when they led a rebellion against Chinese domination, but they're considered a symbolic figure nonetheless. ShiroKobbure once mentioned that having Trung Trac as leader of the Viets is kind of like Jeanne d'Arc for the French, but having Suriyothai (which he incidentally didn't object to) for the Thai is in essence not too different. Also, having Trung Trac as leader would make the Viets more distinct, reflecting a time of Viet history when women held significantly higher status before the adoption of Confucianism (which was also the case in other parts of East Asia such as Shilla-era Korea). Seeing that we have not one but two Suriyothai leaderheads, the Suriyothai leaderhead that Shiro made could work well as Trung Trac.

Anyways, if you plan on having the Manchus, their empire ought to be called "Jin" and the adjective would be "Jurchen." Manchu is a title that came to be at the end of the Ming Dynasty era; it's not really known why the Jurchen peoples started calling themselves "Manchu." The Jurchens founded the Jin Dynasty during the Song Dynasty era. The Jin empire was destroyed by the Mongols, but the Jurchens later re-established a new Jin empire centuries later that eventually became the empire of Da-Qing, which toppled the Ming Dynasty.

 

[Yoda Power]

I'll update the lists with civ's and add leaders and trait suggestions asap.

I thought Manchu was more of an ethnic name for the Manchurians and Jin was just a dynasty? In that case why not use Liao instead? Since Jin pretty much overlaps the Ming.

 

[Antiochus VII]

I get the impression only Ogedei and Blue Monkey should be giving advice here (or maybe it's just mine that's being ignored ) since Yoda isn't actually believing anything I post

Trung Trac will be finished this month but I suspect you'll use Shiro's regardless. Nevertheless I'd set up a version to match the mod's eras if you wanted to use that one !

 

[Yoda Power]

I don't listen to you? You're the reason a Vietnamese civ just got into the mod. I'll probably use your leaderhead too.

 

[Ogedei_the_Mad]

I'll update the lists with civ's and add leaders and trait suggestions asap.

I thought Manchu was more of an ethnic name for the Manchurians and Jin was just a dynasty? In that case why not use Liao instead? Since Jin pretty much overlaps the Ming.

Jin is indeed the dynastic name. The ethnic name is "Jurchen." Manchu is a later name for the descendants of the same people. Both the early Jurchen Jin and the later Manchu empire under Nurhaci, which also called itself Jin (Hou-Jin, or "Later Jin" to differentiate between the previous Jurchen Jin empire) before taking the symbolic name of Da-Qing under the reign of Abahai, were based in Manchuria before they advanced on the Chinese dynasties. Liao also overlaps the Ming since their empire is focused on present-day northeastern China. The issue with East Asia is that there are so many overlaps because of changing dynasties (early Manchuria was under Korean control for a long period, for example).

 

[Yoda Power]

Buildings

Here is my first draft for buildings. I need all the help you guys can give me, cause I have some empty red spots and some unsure yellow ones.

You can click the image and make your suggestions to changes/additions. Or download the doc file and post a revisited version if you want.

So far I'm only thinking about improvements. Wonders can always be added when those are done.

 

[Yoda Power]

Jin is indeed the dynastic name. The ethnic name is "Jurchen." Manchu is a later name for the descendants of the same people. Both the early Jurchen Jin and the later Manchu empire under Nurhaci, which also called itself Jin (Hou-Jin, or "Later Jin" to differentiate between the previous Jurchen Jin empire) before taking the symbolic name of Da-Qing under the reign of Abahai, were based in Manchuria before they advanced on the Chinese dynasties. Liao also overlaps the Ming since their empire is focused on present-day northeastern China. The issue with East Asia is that there are so many overlaps because of changing dynasties (early Manchuria was under Korean control for a long period, for example).

Ok, I guess Jin is best then. Afterall if I can have Chinese dynasties as civs, then it makes sense to have Manchurian too.

 

[Ogedei_the_Mad]

Buildings

Here is my first draft for buildings. I need all the help you guys can give me, cause I have some empty red spots and some unsure yellow ones.

You can click the image and make your suggestions to changes/additions. Or download the doc file and post a revisited version if you want.

So far I'm only thinking about improvements. Wonders can always be added when those are done.

The first corruption-reducing building could simply be a Magistrate. "Artisans' Shop" is good; both East Asian and South Asian civs had a distinct artisan class. "Pagoda" is a Buddhist thing so Confucianism wouldn't have one; Confucianism would feature an Ancestral Shrine. For the "removes pollution," I would suggest a Bath House (for population pollution, that is).

 

[Yoda Power]

Can Daoists have a Pagoda? They does in Civ4, so I assumed that was ok.

 

[Ogedei_the_Mad]

I suppose it would be OK. There's a lot of overlap in Chinese religion since religion was not considered such an exclusive thing; it's not unusual to have a Daoist temple feature a Buddhist figure while a Buddhist temple may house Daoist Immortals figures.

 

[Antiochus VII]

I don't listen to you? You're the reason a Vietnamese civ just got into the mod. I'll probably use your leaderhead too.

Sorry, I was mostly kidding but it seemed Ogedei gave you the same advice on starting location I had several posts above and got significantly more 'reaction' . On a positive note

Did you want just single era-leaderheads or were you going for 2 or more here? When you get to the point of knowing what you need to fill out the missing civs I'll put what might be useful for you at the top of my list.

 

[Yoda Power]

Well I already where Nan Yue's start loc would be. I wasn't sure where a generic Vietnamese civ should be.

I'll use as many era specific heads as possible, so I would of cause appreciate if you make it era specific.

 

[Blue Monkey]

Trung Trac will be finished this month but I suspect you'll use Shiro's regardless. Nevertheless I'd set up a version to match the mod's eras if you wanted to use that one !

Did you want just single era-leaderheads or were you going for 2 or more here?

I will also find a use for at least 4-5 SE Asian LHs with at minimum an ancient & medieval version.

Here is my first draft for buildings. I need all the help you guys can give me, cause I have some empty red spots and some unsure yellow ones.

There are several posts in the AD thread with my recommendations for Indian versions of buildings; I tried to post their functions so that the in-game traits could be reassigned depending on the needs of the scenario.

The first corruption-reducing building could simply be a Magistrate. "Artisans' Shop" is good; both East Asian and South Asian civs had a distinct artisan class. "Pagoda" is a Buddhist thing ...

I agree with Ogedei about the consonance between South & East Asian improvements. Pagoda is, more or less, an East Asian version of what in India or SE Asia is called a Stupa. The primary functional difference is that many pagodas can be entered, while stupas are sealed.

 

[Ogedei_the_Mad]

Are you also having resource-dependent improvements (improvements that need a resource to be in the city radius)?

Some ideas could be a winemaker, silk weaver, bronze smith, and a lacquerware maker. These could give a happiness, culture, revenue, and/or production bonus.

 

[Stormrage]

Dude? What about units? Do you have enough for a start? hmm..

 

[Ogedei_the_Mad]

The Southeast Asian line is going to be a bit tricky...