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East Asia Overhaul

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall - Dawn of Civilization' started by LikeNothing, Apr 7, 2021.

  1. LikeNothing

    LikeNothing Chieftain

    Dec 25, 2016
    Recently I have more ideas on this topic than a single post can contain, and the ones I had posted seem well-received. Thus, a thread. First (this) post is table of contents, organized (hopefully) by logical dependency.

    What this thread will discuss:
    • All ideas are useful on the current map, but many benefit from the planned bigger map
    • I may not be able to answer all your questions, but I will complete this thread to my satisfaction
      • As of this writing, I am > 90% satisfied
    • If you ask me really good questions about East Asian history, I might send you primary sources
    • To my best knowledge, all ideas are feasible in the Civ4 engine, but I am no programmer
      • Leoreth, you are the Leto Atreides II of DoC's universe
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2021
  2. LikeNothing

    LikeNothing Chieftain

    Dec 25, 2016
    New Game Mechanism: Mandate of Heaven (aka: Tian Ming; aka: Zhu Lu Zhong Yuan)
    • To simulate Chinese (re-)unifications, fascinating history which should be fun in game
    • Available for both China and its would-be conquerers (Mongolia, Japan, Manchu, etc.)
    If your Capital is in China's Core and has at least 50% of your own Culture, you receive no (or reduced) Resistance in the cities you conquer in China's Core and Historical Areas.

    (1) Optional: This can also work if your Capital is in China's Historical Area.
    • All the unifying dynasties had their original power base in China's Core (assuming a rational drawing of China's Core which includes Nanjing).
    • The conquest dynasties did not meaningfully conquer China Proper until they moved their capital to China's Core (Beijing).
    • Historically China was never threatened by invaders from the south, but this Option would give Tibet, Khmer, Thai, India, etc. a fun choice.
    • This would also give Korea a possibility of claiming the Mandate without moving Capital. Again, it stretches realism but could be fun.
    (2) Optional: Your State Religion must be Confucian or Taoist.
    • Both the Yuan and Qing dynasty had to demonstrate their Confucian orthodoxy (and of course, move their capital to Beijing, in China's Core) before they could incorporate a meaningful portion of Chinese population under their administration.
    • Unless changed in the future, Confucianism and Taoism have no functional difference in DoC.
    (3) Optional: You also lose fewer Buildings when conquering these cities.
    (4) Optional: You also receive free defenders in these cities after conquering them.
    (5) Optional: You also absorb more of the Culture in these cities after conquering them.
    (6) Optional: You also receive a Stability boost (equivalent to Conquest Civic) from conquering these cities.

    This idea is inspired by both RFCAsia and the Common Universalis Mod of EU4. In RFC Asia if you conquer half of China the other half auto-flips to you. I think a no Resistance bonus is more fun. Of course, you should still get the option to raze the cities, regardless.

    Currently, this mechanism would give Mongolia, Japan, Korea, Tibet, Khmer, etc. more motivation and benefits to conquer China. In a future larger map, where I assume there will be more civs in the area like the Manchus, it'd be even more interesting.
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2021
    RustyBrick likes this.
  3. LikeNothing

    LikeNothing Chieftain

    Dec 25, 2016
    New Silk Road and Trade Company Mechanisms
    • To make these differ from modern Corporations, more realistic with more strategic depth
    • Corresponding adjustments to English and Dutch UPs
    Silk Road - Unchanged Features
    • Spreads when certain tech (Compass?) is met, to Cities in the Silk Road's historical geographical area
    Silk Road - New Features
    • Can now also spread to Independent and Barbarian Cities; whenever Silk Road has already spread to any major Civ
    • Yields a moderate amount of :food: only, no :gold:; utilizes somewhat different Resources (details later)
    • Enables a number of new Buildings, see below
    Trade Company - Unchanged Features
    • Spreads when certain tech (Astronomy?) is met
    Trade Company - New Features
    • Spreads to any coastal City whose owner either (1) has its Capital Overseas or (2) has the City as non-Historical
    • Higher Spread if the City is Overseas but Historical; giving Europeans a boost but no absolute exclusivity
    • Yields a moderate amount of :hammers: only, no :food: or :gold:; utilizes somewhat different Resources (details later)
    • Enables a number of new Buildings, see below

    New Buildings (All Numbers Subject to Balance)

    All the following Buildings, unless otherwise noted:

    • Requires either Silk Road or Trading Company;
    • Have relatively low cost;
    • Are automatically destroyed when either (1) City changes owner or (2) City owner changes Expansion Civic.
    (1) Localized Administration
    Recruit the administrators in this City from the local elite rather than sending our own.
    • -100%:culture:, -25%:science:, -25% City Maintenance, removes or reduces this City's Foreign Culture and Religion :) and Stability Costs
    (2) Autonomous Administration
    Give the administrators in this City a large degree of autonomy.
    • -50% :gold:, -25%:science:, -25% City Maintenance, removes or reduces this City's Civics, Expansion Stability and Tech :science: costs
    (3) Penal Colony
    Send the trouble-making elements from our homeland to this remote colony.
    • Cannot be built in your Core
    • Requires at least 75% of your own Culture in this City
    • +1:mad:, +3 Free Citizen Specialists
    (4) Caravan
    • Requires Silk Road
    • +1 Trade Route, Bonus :hammers: and/or :food: to Camels, Horses
    (5) Trade Post
    • Requires Trading Company
    • +1 Trade Route, Bonus :hammers: and/or :food: to Fishing Boat (and possibly Plantation) resources
    (6) Silk Road Embassy
    • Does not require a Corporation, costs more to build, not destroyed by Civics changes
    • Requires 2 (or more on a bigger map) Caravans; can only build 1
    • Maintains your Civilization's trade contact with all foreign Cities with Silk Road (including Open Borders and any Resource deals)
    (7) Trading Company Branch Office
    • Requires Trading Company, costs more to build, not destroyed by Civics changes
    • Requires 4 (or more on a bigger map) Trade Posts; can only build 1 per Continent
    • +:gold: from your cities with Trading Company on this Continent, possibly other bonuses
    (8) Viceroy's Palace
    • Costs more to build, not destroyed by Civics changes
    • Requires 4 (or more on a bigger map) Autonomous Administrations
    • Provides the (perhaps reduced) bonuses of a Palace

    English UP: Indirect Rule
    Localized Administration and Autonomous Administration always available in all of your non-Core cities and provide less penalties.

    Dutch UP: Free Trade Spirit
    Reduced costs and requirements for Trade Posts and Trading Company Branch Offices; Trading Company Corporation yields more.
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2021
    YelCinist 2000 and RustyBrick like this.
  4. LikeNothing

    LikeNothing Chieftain

    Dec 25, 2016
    New Chinese UP: Dynastic Cycles (aka: Gai Chao Huan Dai; aka: Xin Chao Ya Zheng)
    • To simulate China being a single civ representing multiple dynasties spanning millenia
    • A Chinese UP that is both fun and relatively easy to balance, solving a longstanding problem in DoC
    When you enter a new Era, you receive a Stability bonus (Or penalty, depending on balance) for some turns, and your Great People and Great General Thresholds reduced (down to zero, or half, or some other balanced level).

    (1) Optional: You also receive the "Rise of Civilization" tech cost discount for some turns.
    (2) Optional: This only works for the first 4 new Eras you enter, to balance 3000BC vs 600AD China.
    (3) Optional: Your non-Historical cities become Independents.
    • Historically very realistic
    (4) Optional: Your non-Core cities become Independents.
    • Historically mostly realistic
    • May seem harsh, but may be fun with the Mandate of Heaven mechanism above and Optional (5) below
    • Allows China to not have a comically stunted Stability Map the way it does now
    • Obviates the need of a non-historical "South China" civ
    (5) Optional: You also receive a small stack of free units (just like a newly-spawned civ would)
    IRL China has collapsed multiple times and went through multiple cycles of reform and rebirth. This is not just part of China's national mythos (as stated in the opening sentence of Romance of Three Kingdoms) - it's a historical fact, and a very interesting one worthy of study.

    But I think most agree it's impractical to represent each major Chinese dynasty as a separate civ in DoC. China will likely be the longest continuously running civ in a game like DoC, as it has always been. That should be what makes it unique and interesting to play, not a limit or a burden.

    Put another way, if any civ in game should represent multiple IRL civs/states/regimes/dynasties, it's China. The question is how to simulate this. I've thought of a controlled voluntary collapse (hence, Optionals 3 and 4 above) but other players may hate it (though perhaps not too much, given Optional 5 and the Mandate of Heaven mechanism).

    The current Chinese UP (food stored) has no effect on player or AI choices or tactics. It is functionally equivalent to a moderate boost to iModifierGrowthThreshold, which, even after the boost, still make China's pop growth rate slower than most civs'. Its one virtue is that it is easily balanced, but any UP of such simplicity would be.
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2021
  5. LikeNothing

    LikeNothing Chieftain

    Dec 25, 2016
    New Japanese UP: Eternal Dynasty (aka: Bansei Ichi; aka: Kokutai)
    • To more realistically represent Japan in all its Eras, not just one or some of them
    • Bonus Bushido UP ideas that can be used as effects for Himeji Castle instead
    Always receive the bonuses of Monarchy regardless of what Civics you are running. Shinto is always available as a normal State Religion (even if running Secularism).

    (1) Optional: You also receive the Stability bonuses (and perhaps also penalty) of Monarchy.
    (2) Optional: Shinto gives no Stability penalty for Foreign Religions.
    (3) Optional: Shinto gives no Stability bonus for Religious Unity.
    (4) Optional: Shinto gives less Relations penalty based on Religion with other Civs.
    (5) Optional: Shinto allows the building of Wonders requiring other State Religions.
    (6) Optional: Shinto enables buildings (Wonders, e.g. Himeji Castle; Temples and Monasteries)

    In stark contrast with China's Dynastic Cycles and Mandate of Heaven which any new dynasty can claim in theory, the Imperial House of Japan is the longest continuous imperial dynasty in the world, unbroken in recorded history, and the keystone of Japan's national ethos. The Emperor of Japan is now the only head of state who uses an imperial title.

    Even when the Emperor does not have real political power (as in now, or during the Shogunate Era, or even during the Meiji Restoration itself), his cultural and religious impact (as the religious head of Shinto) on Japan is immense. This is why the reformers of the Meiji Restoration claimed to be upholding the divine rights of the Emperor while actually establishing a constitutional monarchy:

    This is also why maintaining the Emperor's symbolic reign (Kokutai) was the only condition considered by Japan during its surrender in 1945 (which the Allies wisely honored, even though it's not a formal condition of the surrender).

    Here are some UP ideas related to Bushido, which can be used instead as effects of Himeji Castle (or other Shinto-related bonuses):
    • Bushido - Honor
      Your units do not suffer penalty to Attack for being wounded.
    • Bushido - Loyalty
      Your units receive a Defense bonus within your cultural borders.
    • Bushido - Sacrifice
      Your units dying in combat passes half of their XP to your other units nearby.
    • Bushido - Simplicity
      Your units always have heal rate and costs as if they are in a domestic city.
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2021
    RustyBrick likes this.
  6. LikeNothing

    LikeNothing Chieftain

    Dec 25, 2016
    Misc Futuristic/Rudimentary Ideas
    • Dynamic Resource spawns and Silk Road/Columbian Exchange
    • UP ideas for future East Asian civs: Manchu, Vietnam
    Dynamic Resource spawns and Silk Road/Columbian Exchange
    Instead of pre-scripted Resource spawns, Silk, Spices (and other Silk Road resources) spawn randomly via Events on tiles near Cities with Silk Road Corporation; Corn, Tobacco (and other New World resources) spawn on tiles near Old World Cities whose owners have vision of the New World; Horse, Cow (and other Old World resources) spawn on tiles near New World Cities whose owners have vision of the Old World, etc.
    • Event requires: the City's owner to have certain Techs (Crop Rotation?), (relative) lack of access to the spawning Resource, and the tile to have certain Improvements (Farm? Cottage?) and certain Terrains (Grassland?).
    • In a large map in particular, this might be easier to code than presecripted Resource spawns.
    • Trading Company Corporation improves the chance of Columbian Exchange spawns.

    Manchu UP: Assimilation
    Capturing a City gives you extra :science:, :culture:, and :hammers: in your Capital. Defeating an enemy Unit (including Barbarians) gives a chance (~50%) of it defecting to you.

    Manchu UU: Banner
    Replaces Cuirassier. No City Strength penalty, +25% Hills Strength, receives Defensive Bonuses, build with :food:, upgrades to Cavalry

    Vietnamese UP: Defiance
    Losing a Unit gives you no Stability penalty or War Weariness, and returns most (~75%) of the Unit's cost to your Capital as :hammers:; No Stability penalty from foreign relations (
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2021
  7. Enyavar

    Enyavar Prince

    May 16, 2015
    • Im curious what your five mega-suggestions will be.
    I have already argued for a long time that there needs to be some mechanism that stops to treat China as a single isolated culture that emerged from nothing and that was merely threatened by Barbarians and Mongols. Historians like to point out that a single entity like "China" only is the result of Han conquest and colonization. Only after ~1500, during the Ming and Qing eras, China had amalgamized into the single geopolitical entity that it became today.

    The Game starts with China as it emerges in the Xia-Shang era. This was (due to our lack of knowledge about those times) the last time that China was unchallenged by outside cultures. For much of the Zhou period, the Xiang "barony" (stylizing itself as a Kingdom) was already an equal power, that may be symbolized with an independent "Southern China" civ, and resisting the feudal government. Such a "South China" can be subjugated by China to serve as a vassal, but should in my opinion remain for a long time, and whenever subjugated and eliminated from the game, be ready to re-emerge. It's first Xiang and the Nanyue, later the southern dynasties, then Guangdong/Kanton with its own more mercantile culture compared to the warlike Northerners and in the 20th century we get the PRC/Taiwan shism.

    Meanwhile the game treats China as its own single predetermined block, when there should actually be a division/duality like with Rome and Byzantium; Russia and Poland; France and England; Portugal and Spain; America and Canada; Austria and Prussia; or Arabia and Maghreb... All of these are pieces of the same cloth: Struggling, fiercely competing neighbors just like the Chinese states have been for most of their time; with the main difference being that history depicts them today not as "two sides of the same coin" but as "two different coins".

    I'm not really arguing for a playable "South China" as Leoreth rightfully points out that there is no permanent "national identity" of such a nation (the same argument goes for "Han China" before the 1500ies, but ehhhh). Well, there should be an Independent Kingdom that serves as an adversary for Han-China similar to the Gauls vs. Rome. A formidable sparring partner that regularly re-emerges, declares independence, and also hinders a player-China from becoming a world power too soon; and that can have policies, trade relationships and alliances of its own.

    Should my suggestion be tabled for later, until the new map gets incorporated and more civilizations are programmed? Yes, it should.
    1SDAN and LikeNothing like this.
  8. Leoreth

    Leoreth Friend Next Door Moderator

    Aug 23, 2009
    I will not engage with this anymore.
  9. HighFunctioningAlcoholic

    HighFunctioningAlcoholic Warlord

    Apr 10, 2018
    *Cracks the whip.
  10. 1SDAN

    1SDAN Brother Lady

    Oct 27, 2014
    Whip it, whip it good
  11. h0spitall3rz

    h0spitall3rz Grand Vizier of Your Mind

    Aug 2, 2015
    Hanseong, Great Korean Empire

    Not entirely sure if I support the whole idea, but I may suggest that instead of the ROC "era," we represent Song dynasty by researching all Four Great Inventions (Compass, Paper, Gunpowder, Printing), regardless of whether the UHV is achieved or not (i.e., there's no need to be the first one to research).
    RustyBrick and LikeNothing like this.
  12. LikeNothing

    LikeNothing Chieftain

    Dec 25, 2016
    Song is my favorite dynasty as well, but I don't think free units fits them. I also have reservations about the whole idea of free units, so I made it Optional. But one of the key features of a newly spawning Civ is a stack of free units.

    This free units Optional can work well if the stack of free units is small but also ahead of time/what you normally can't get at that time. It'd be a bit like the free Legions that spawn with Byzantium. For example, Ming can spawn with a few Musketeers which it can't immediately build.

    Moreover, when you finish the Four Great Inventions, you usually get a Golden Age (2/3 UHV), which nicely represents Song already, for me at least.

    Finally, I welcome suggestions about Korea's UP. I have not come up with a better one than the existing UP, which IMO is very well-designed (more so than the existing Chinese and Japanese UPs).
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2021
    RustyBrick likes this.
  13. h0spitall3rz

    h0spitall3rz Grand Vizier of Your Mind

    Aug 2, 2015
    Hanseong, Great Korean Empire
    There can be free units for Song, albeit fewer. What if China fails UHV2? There would be no golden age in that case.

    For Ming, do remember that there's a second UU, Firelancer, which is an early Arquebusier that requires Gunpowder instead of Firearms.

    I think Korea's UP is already great, though I think we should add another Korean wonder. Gyeongbokgung or Changdeokgung, perhaps?

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