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Eastern Europe is NOT under-represented

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by Saim, Jun 29, 2007.

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  1. Saim

    Saim King

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    Wtf Burma? Siam and Vietnam > Champa by quite a bit. The only Indonesian civ I think should be in the game is Srivijaya. Tibet, Afghanistan, Phoenicia Akkadia are fine. Elam was very small. Media and Khazaria are cool, but Khazaria is in Europe, based on what I know.

    Austro-asiatic and Austronesian are sometimes both considered "Austric", though.

    Khwarezm, Timurids...
    Hm...
    This is Africa in general...
    Pacific is very small...
    Siberia has a very small population...
     
  2. TheLastOne36

    TheLastOne36 Deity

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    Central Asia is lacking any amazing civs
    South America has Brazil, Gran Colombia/Venezuela yet to go. (Where in heck is Simon Bolivar?)

    Subsaharan Africa was never that great. Ethiopia, Zulu and Mali are good enough for me. I think Swahili and possibly COngo might be a nice idea,

    Pacific needs Polynesia. Then nothing else is needed.

    Sibera never housed 1 civilization. Only russia and the true "civilization" part of russia was thousands of miles from siberia.:rolleyes:
     
  3. Poppa Candy

    Poppa Candy Chieftain

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    The statement in bold is the precisely reason why you need to provide factual evidence to back up you superficial generalizations about Poland. I find it surprising that you acknowledge the need to provide historical evidence and yet you consistently fail to provide it. The best explanation I can for this apparently contradictory behavior is that you lack the requisite historical knowledge.

    From what I have seen so far, I am beginning to doubt that you even have an adequate understanding of the very notion of ‘fact’. A fact is a state of affairs that obtains, usually independently of ones’ subjective opinions. Obtaining states of affairs might also be thought as that which confers truth to certain true statements. If you want to make true statement about anything, including Poland, you need to explain which historical state of affairs are supposed to render to your statements true or at least reasonable to assert. This is not just good academic practice, everybody who puts forward a theory should support their theories or interpretations by citing the relevant facts. So please do use historical facts to support your views about Poland. Failing that, your vague and superficial generalizations about Poland remain devoid of historical content.
     
  4. Spearthrower

    Spearthrower Thrower of spears

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    3500 words approximately and still no facts.

    Approximately half your posts on this forum have been on this topic, to which you still haven't made a single valid point other than a slew of unwarranted criticisms and unfounded opinions.

    Surely you must have seen by now that I am not rising to the bait.

    Why don't you either put your money where your mouth is, or head on to a troll thread you know something about?
     
  5. Arlborn

    Arlborn Legendary Noob

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    Are we still at it...?
     
  6. TheLastOne36

    TheLastOne36 Deity

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    You stll need to learn. Poland's magical.

    If Firaxis just included Poland in BTS we wouldn't be complaining right now! :wallbash:
     
  7. Poppa Candy

    Poppa Candy Chieftain

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    That’s right. So far you have failed to provided a single historical facts in support of your superficial generalisations. Please do, if you can. Once you provide the facts to support you so far vague statements about Poland, you will be in a position do engage in a serious historical discussion.

    What you have just said implies an argument ad hominem (e.g. attacking the person instead of his or her argument). In effect you are accusing your interlocutor of being an “ignorant troll”. Such crude arguments ad hominem are no substitute for factual evidence. Any good academic should know that.
     
  8. Spearthrower

    Spearthrower Thrower of spears

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    Putting more words in my mouth?

    My accusation is far less of an attack than your slew of them. Shall I go back and post all the silly comments made by you? No, I ignored them as the worthless jibes they were intended to be.

    It is clear for all to see Poppa, I am not the first to comment on it, just keep at it, I am sure the moderators are looking with interest at a poster singling someone out with a load of empty rubbish littered with the occasional personal criticism.

    Glad to see you finally looked up those logical fallacies, now you can see why I haven't even bothered to argue with your endlessly repeated statements, all of which are fallacious.

    Facts please.

    Why do you persist in this when all you have to do is post 1 single fact to counter the statements you labelled as "superficial" and "lacking in historical knowledge".

    Surely if they are so superficial and lacking in knowledge, it must be easy to quickly find something to disprove me. That source of proof of course needs to be something other than your opinion.

    Perhaps you are simply falling into the trap of not judging yourself by the same high standards you require of others?

    As it stands, anyone with even a passing glance at this "debate" knows that you are required to challenge my post factually if you actually expect me to debate it back.

    If you can't provide facts, stop repeating your opinions.... we've heard them repeatedly in each of your posts - nothing new since the first one.
     
  9. Wodan

    Wodan Deity

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    Why don't you both provide some facts?

    Go back and look at the original statements you both are talking about.

    1) If you agree with one of them, just repost it and say you agree, no facts needed (yet). If both of you agree, then no further discussion is necessary on that point.

    2) If you disagree, provide some evidence to the contrary. Include supporting references such as Wiki.

    3) If, in a day or two, the other of you provides evidence to the contrary of one of your #1 points (that you simply agreed with), then either say "you've convinced me" or go find some facts that support it. After you do so, we then will have supporting evidence and contrary evidence, and some intelligent conclusions may be drawn to reconcile the two.

    Wodan
     
  10. Poppa Candy

    Poppa Candy Chieftain

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    A straightforward factual refutation of Sperthrower’s superficial view concerning Poland has been already provided by Traitorfish. Under the most natural understanding of it, the statement that "Poland was the breadbasket of Europe" implies that Poland was at some point responsible for feeding much of Europe. However, during the Middle Ages, most rural European areas were either self-supporting, or importing wheat from places other than Poland. Thus Spearthrower’s statement is false under its most natural interpretation. The most charitable interpretation of Spearhtrower’s view is that he is misusing the term “breadbasket” and he’s just taking it to mean “exporter of large amounts of wheat”, which was indeed true of Poland in 1500. It is however difficult to determine what Spearthrower actually meant, or what he was trying to prove, because he consistently refuses to rectify his position, and support his view with historical facts.
     
  11. TheLastOne36

    TheLastOne36 Deity

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    Umm after the black death poland was suppling wheat and bread to the rest of europe... if that's what you two wwere arguing on about, then spearthrower is somewhat correct. (wasn't paying attention.)
     
  12. cybrxkhan

    cybrxkhan Asian Xwedodah

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    on the Quote Wars: Rising Bread, i have this statement:

    Who cares if Poland makes a lota bread? Vietnam makes a lota rice too! China took our type of rice from us in the medieval age, so then they could make lots of rice too.

    :p
     
  13. Poppa Candy

    Poppa Candy Chieftain

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    That is not the point. Nobody denies that Poland was a major exporter of wheat. The problem lies with Spearthrower's careless use of the word "bread basket", which misleadingly suggests that Poland's agricultural surplus was at some point vital for Europe as a whole. That would be a gross exaggeration. At no point in history was Poland's surplus the predominant sources of wheat for all European rural regions (although it was for some of them). Having said, it is difficult to assess the correctness of Spearthrower claim if he doesn’t make his views more precise. The main problem so far is that his claims about Poland (the breadbasket claim being just one example) are too vague and superficial to warrant a precise assessment. His overall argumentative strategy also is sloppy. That is one reason why I am asking him to provide more historical evidence in support of his so far vague generalizations.
     
  14. Spearthrower

    Spearthrower Thrower of spears

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    Here I have put a lot of online sources to support all my claims. Please bear in mind that 95% of my sources are hard copies either in my personal collection or from departments at the institution I work at.

    I'll start by saying that I am not going to type references out of books for 2 reasons.

    1) I am only doing this to show willing, I fully believe this series of posts are entirely for the purpose of trolling.
    2) I wont allow the possibility of a claim being made that I am lying.... I have plenty of books here and the time it would take to post and reference when it could easily be discarded with the same logical fallacies already continually exhibited throughout Poppa's posts (argumentiam ad ignorantium) i.e. can't see it, don't believe it.

    Two books I will reference purely for people's interests.... both of which deal with all this material in greater depth than I can show here.

    The Black Death 1346-1353: The Complete History, by Ole J. Benedictow.
    Economy, Society, and Lordship in Medieval Poland 100-1250. by Piotr Gorecki


     
  15. TheLastOne36

    TheLastOne36 Deity

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    Well atleast i agree with you Spearthrower.
     
  16. Spearthrower

    Spearthrower Thrower of spears

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    The typical definition of "breadbasket" is:

    The Breadbasket of a country is a region which, because of richness of soil or advantageous climate, produces an agricultural surplus which is often considered vital for the country as a whole. A similar term is the Granary of a given country. As such the ownership of such regions are historically the subject of fierce military disputes.

    With Polands exports maintaining an ongoing average of at least 2% of the whole of Europe's grain for some 400 years, Poland receives the title "a breadbasket of Europe". Only the Ukraine ever took a higher percentage, and that was in much more recent times.
     
  17. Spearthrower

    Spearthrower Thrower of spears

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    I honestly don't mind if he wants to disagree, but he has to play by the rules of using facts to do so, not pseudo-philosophical arguments.

    Add to that these criticisms he added totally unnecessarily - none of them have anything to do with the debate at hand:

    *********************
    Repeated claims that my arguments were superficial and unsophisticated - yet he has not provided ANY argument whatsoever and furthermore, these 2 words are subjective opinions, not factual analysis. If he had provided factual support to show why my argument was superficial, then that would have been fair. The use of the word "unsophisticated" is just a baiting statement that's clearly not based on the reality of the post and is once again, entirely subjective.

    Repeatedly instructing me to learn philosophy to engage in historical debate. Having studied history to BA level, I am shocked to learn that philosophy is a requirement - why did such a well known institution not inform me of this? :)rolleyes:) Aside from that, his logic was based around the principle he highlighted, to quote "my counter-argument is a valid, viz. it follows for the premises. My argument is sound too. The premises are true, and so is the conclusion." Wow, why don't you just vote yourself judge, jury and executioner all at once? :)

    Amateur understanding of marking - obviously just a trolling statement made about a flippant summary, but funny when you consider my job.

    Instructing me on what I need to do to pursue an academic career on a number of occasions.... when I already have an academic career! :lol:

    *********************

    None of the above were necessary except to try to achieve a rise, they did nothing to further his point, but instead sought to undermine my credibility. For these, I could have alerted a moderator to claim trolling.

    The baiting was, I have to admit, nicely done.... but baiting it still was.

    Further.... there have been no assertions made by Poppa, only criticisms. Criticisms based on opinion.


    I simply ask people to click on Poppa's name and look at his posts to understand why I consider there ample evidence for trolling - it's hardly ad hominem when there is adequate proof.
     
  18. Poppa Candy

    Poppa Candy Chieftain

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    This confirms my suspicion. Most of the sources given above are unreliable from an academic point of view. No serious academic would rely on Wikipedia to support his claims. The following sources you gave are more reliable:

    I am glad to see that finally you are heading towards the right direction. That is better, but I am afraid that this is not yet good enough. Now you need to say which passage from (at least one) of the above books support your breadbasket claim, and what is the conclusion you meant to draw. I very much doubt you will able to find the requisite evidence from reliable sources. Competent historians would limit themselves to claiming that Poland was at some point a major exporter of wheat. They would not go as far as claiming that Poland was the primary supplier of wheat for most European areas, as you loose original statement implies.

    Note: I am restricting my attention to the “bradbasket” claim for the sake of simplicity and definiteness. But the general thought also applies to other superficial generalizations you have made in connection to Polish history.

    Again you are quoting Wikipedia, which is bad academic practice. (You also need to put quoted statement between brackets and furnish full bibliographic details, or else you run the risk of being accused of plagiarism by your peers). I will let it pass, for that particular definition you quote is indeed fine for my purposes. The problem is that Poland does not satisfy the Wikipedia definition that you have relied on. Poland’s agriculture surplus never was “vital” for Europe as a whole, for most European rural areas aimed at self-sufficiency and never imported grain from Poland. In order to prove your thesis, you need to give statistics showing that the majority of European urban and rural centers (say at least 60%) dependent for their survival on Poland’s agricultural surplus. Either that, or simply admit that you have misused the term “bradbasket” by making a superficial and unwarranted generalization.

    Moderator Action: Warned - Flaming and insulting other members
    Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
     
  19. Spearthrower

    Spearthrower Thrower of spears

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    Again, no facts from you.

    Alerting a moderator for trolling.
     
  20. cybrxkhan

    cybrxkhan Asian Xwedodah

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    this has to be the best quote wars i've ever seen.
     
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