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Eastern Europe is NOT under-represented

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by Saim, Jun 29, 2007.

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  1. Mirc

    Mirc Not mIRC!!!

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    Ok then I think we can agree they were "both very strong" at the time. :D
    (you realize if the hypothetical scenario that they would need to be allied happened, nobody could stand a chance for sure :))
     
  2. Sofista

    Sofista card-carrying

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    Folks, I remember a couple years ago a similar debate, "which was greater, Rome or England?", between me and an Englishman. IN the end we agreed that they weren't comparable, really (who was greater, McEnroe or Tilden? Too different the times to compare).

    Same here: Rome and China may have had fleeting contacts, but to all effects they were "playing on different maps".
     
  3. aelf

    aelf Ashen One

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    At least they were contemporaries and had some contact with each other (including the possibility of a small number of lost Roman troops having engaged in combat with the Chinese).

    And I might be wrong on the Chinese power projection speculation. Han China sent 70,000 troops to chase the Xiongnu all the way to the Caspian. Interestingly, this army was supposed to send an ambassador to Rome (which the Chinese appreciated as an economic power and called 'Great China' - possibly because the Romans are a taller people, since the Chinese seemed to have underestimated the size of the Roman Empire) if not for the greedy Parthians telling them that the journey would take years and that they should just continue trading with Parthia.
     
  4. scy12

    scy12 Deity

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    For the Chinese , China is better. For the Europeans , Rome is better.
     
  5. Phoenix1595

    Phoenix1595 Lord of the Two Lands

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    I appreciate both China and Rome-- they are in my top five civs to play (and I enjoy playing historically-grand civs). Anyone with even a fleeting knowledge of global history should realize that to compare the two is like comparing apples to oranges: different cultures, different political systems, different ethos, etc. There is enough historical evidence available to indicate that both civs did have some fleeting contact, and from what we know they respected the other with mutual awe, curiousity, and admiration as a fellow major civ (and potential trading partner). Now if you were to compare Caesar's Rome to Wang Kon's Pyongyang for a moment... :p
     
  6. NyukXI

    NyukXI Warlord

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    As someone has already said, Europe (post-Rome) was pretty much the poor backwater region of the world. At least until around 1500 when colonization really started to kick off in Europe.

    In fact, the whole reason that Europe was the one to come to colonize most of the globe, opposed to a country like China (who was far wealthier than any European state when colonization began) is most likely because they were falling behind the rest of the world and being choked off. In comparison, China was the regional power of East Asia and all of it's neighbors were pretty much made into tributary states, so what incentive was for them to spend the money to go exploring? Remember that Christopher Columbus was looking for an alternate trade route to the Eastern nations. The Ottoman Empire and other muslim empires prospered because they dominated the trade routes between Europe and Asia, likewise, kingdoms like Mali and it's successor states dominated trade routes between sub-saharan Africa and the middle-east.

    Europe was trying to look for away around these barriers, while I really don't think China cared all that much. The muslim kingdoms at the time probably had more to offer China than Europe anyway. Eventually, Europeans found the Americas as well as the Eastern nations like China and India and rose to prominence in various regions by allying with local factions.

    Europe (again, post-Rome) really didn't start getting ahead of the rest of the world until the 1500s-1600s and then enjoyed such dominance until World War II after which time the US and the USSR became the superpowers. Poland on the other hand only experienced it's golden age for about the first 100 years from the mid 1500s-1600s before they were left in the dust of Russia and Western European nations. And before that, they would have been just another petty kingdom compared to the wealthy nations of the middle-east and East Asia.
     
  7. Mirc

    Mirc Not mIRC!!!

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    The beginning of European dominance after Rome began with Italian renaissance, which had its roots in the Italian Trecento, meaning the XIVth century. :) The Quattrocento (XVth century) was when Europe became more advanced than other places, and when Reconquista completed. The XVIth century (the 1500s) was just the time when this power started to show. :)

    Before 1300, except for Byzantium, Europe was pretty backwards.
     
  8. cybrxkhan

    cybrxkhan Asian Xwedodah

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    China and India for Asia, Greece and Rome for Europe. simple as that.
     
  9. TheLastOne36

    TheLastOne36 Deity

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    OMG i can't even imagine you said that. Poland, Romania, Bulgaria, Serbia, Hungary, Bohemia and Ukraine are all just as important as the rest of europe. The remaining land have all been part of these States, Or extremely influenced by them, or russia/ottomans.

    POLAND IS ONE OF THE WORLD"S MAIN ETHNIC GROUPS UNREPRESENTED. Have a brain next time you post something as ignorant as that. The only other ethnic group i can see even close are some African ones. And there is no way FireAxis is going to add them. Congo may be the only one (togather with Swahili).

    And noone said that East Europe is the only unrepresented area in the world. Oceania and south America are pretty big problems as well when it comes to representation.

    Really? Try Scandinavia and Eastern europe next time.

    Wasn't that one of Wilsons 13 points or something?

    No. The alliance is the golden age of Poland. Poland has a history going over 2000 years, starting from the Slavic Polish tribes along the vistula river, till now. And there is a direct connection as well. That is a huge time.
     
  10. NyukXI

    NyukXI Warlord

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    ...Did you read the post I was responding to when I said that?

    What are you talking about? How does the act of me observing your argument make me ignorant?

    You said that they were the only "major" ethnicity still unrepresented. From the Do you prefer the Holy Roman Empire to Poland thread:

    So I suppose, to quote you:

    Have a brain next time you post something as ignorant as that.
     
  11. Marla_Singer

    Marla_Singer United in diversity

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    Chinese people have actually explored ! And they've started before Vasco de Gama. Zheng He (1371-1433) is known to have explored the whole Indian Ocean, from Indonesia to probably Madagascar. The difference is that they haven't settled in the discovered lands. They didn't find any need to.

    The reason for this is rather simple, China was big enough and its power was unrivaled. At the opposite, Europe was divided in small kingdoms competing between each others to reach domination. Hence settling in new territories was considered as a way to devellop power of a kingdom over its rivals.
     
  12. TheLastOne36

    TheLastOne36 Deity

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    name one ethnic group unrepresented in the game. (other then a few African ones which do have a bigger pop.)

    But Firaxis isn't putting out much more african civ now.
     
  13. NyukXI

    NyukXI Warlord

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    I don't know... I know Zheng He visited those areas, but wasn't China already aware that those areas existed? I thought, but could be mistaken, that he was establishing trade contacts in those areas, and I believe he was bringing gifts back to the Chinese court to increase prestige. But, I mean the ship that Zheng He used in his travels, which were over shorter distances than the Europeans' was a great deal larger than the ships of European colonialists. But yes, I agree that China saw no need to colonize, tribute was enough and the resources of the East were what the Westerners wanted anyway. They probably felt like they were Emperors of the world.
     
  14. TheLastOne36

    TheLastOne36 Deity

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    i heard somewhere that that guy also visited Australia. I don't know where that source comes from but it'd be pretty interesting if it was true.

    Interesting enough the polynesians crossed the pacific ocean from Fiji to North America in canoes. That's more impressive then what the europeans did.
     
  15. NyukXI

    NyukXI Warlord

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    If you're looking for other ethnic groups, I named several in the other thread.

    If you're looking for other ethnic groups larger than the Polish population, you are probably right in that there are few ethnic groups unrepresented with a larger population. But the population argument is about as silly as the size argument. Poles outnumber Dutch, and Poland is larger than the Netherlands, same with the Portuguese and Portugal. but by no means should Poland have taken precedence over the Netherlands nor Portugal. A large population and size do not make an interesting civilization.
     
  16. TheLastOne36

    TheLastOne36 Deity

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    So are you saying Poland is not an interesting civilization?

    and the huge ethnic group is good for market btw. As 7 % of the American Population have direct links to Poland, a bigger percantige have claims to being polish and an even bigger percantige have polish blood in them. So out of the 300 M in America 7 % is huge. it's like 15 M. (i'm geussing)
     
  17. Grimz101

    Grimz101 King

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    Yes and how many Latino-Americans are there?
    By your logic we should put Brazil, Mexico ect in for their fanbase
     
  18. TheLastOne36

    TheLastOne36 Deity

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    Going for an extremely biased point of view: Most latino-Americans can't afford Civ 4!

    That is obviously not true. just wanted to say that for some fun :D I would never say that in real life.

    And they are somewhat represented by Spain and Portugal.
     
  19. NyukXI

    NyukXI Warlord

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    I am of Portuguese descent, but I still purchased Civilization IV and Warlords. I don't think the inclusion of Poland is going to make or break a whole lot of peoples' decisions to buy the game. Nor did the absence of America in the initial release of Rise of Nations put me off of buying that game.
     
  20. Ishon

    Ishon Warlord

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    I don't think anyobody argued that Poland should have taken precedence over the Netherlands. A lot of people believe that Poland should enter the game together with the Netherlands and Portugal, though - instead of the HRE or the Native American Civilization with their Mighty Totems.
     
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