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Easy way to make Civ 7 good in 7 easy steps (Doctors hate it)

Discussion in 'Civ - Ideas & Suggestions' started by GeneralZIft, May 7, 2022.

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Poll closed May 18, 2022.
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  1. GeneralZIft

    GeneralZIft Chieftain

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    How to make Civ 7 good in 7 simple steps:

    #1 Remove Governors
    #2 Remove Era Score
    #3 Remove the aids in Loyalty
    #4 Spread out the stuff in Tech & Civics trees better or just combine them
    #5 Replace the World Congress with an actually-good-World-Congress-system (the one from Civ 5 or better)
    #6 Make Wonders more competitive between players
    #7 Simplistic understandable Civ bonuses, not 30 essays
    #8 bring back stalin
     
  2. Xandinho

    Xandinho Deity

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    #1 Remove Governors
    They are very boring with that micromanagement in which you need to move them around the cities, but they can be nice if they provide global bonuses.

    #2 Remove Era Score
    I like it a lot, for me it's the best implemetation in R&F. I wouldn't remove it.

    #3 Remove the aids in Loyalty
    Loyalty helped to fix that horrible behavior of AI that civs used to settle cities everywhere. That was a mess. However, loyalty isn't the best name for cultural influence. I'd like to see it improved in Civ7 to something more realistc.

    #4 Spread out the stuff in Tech & Civics trees better or just combine them
    I totally agree with this.

    #5 Replace the World Congress with an actually-good-World-Congress-system (the one from Civ 5 or better)
    Agreed again. Also, the current world congress is very boring, and most of its resolutions are useless or little effective.

    #6 Make Wonders more competitive between players
    Also make wonders worthy of building. Half of the wonders in Civ6 are useless or with very situational bonuses.

    #7 Simplistic understandable Civ bonuses, not 30 essays
    I don't mind complexity and many bonuses, but I understand that many players don't like that. Besides that, it's hard for AI to handle too much complexity, so maybe we should have an average level of it. And finally, the bonuses should be more linked to each other.

    #8 bring back stalin
    Impossible :p

    Anyway, my 7 steps to make Civ7 really good:

    #Good AI, or at least a lot better than Civ6. AI should be more aggressive.
    #Average level of complexity.
    #Less micromanagement (like moving governors around the cities).
    #Some balances between big and small empires. You can win a match even having a small empire.
    #Less eras (cut Atomic and Future Eras out). Make the remaining eras bigger, it would make them more immersive.
    #Something deeper like "cultural influence" that would replace loyalty.
    #Make all wonders and T3 buildings worthy of building and a bit cheaper.

    There are more things, but I think these are the most important ones.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2022
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  3. The_goggles_do_nothing

    The_goggles_do_nothing Chieftain

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    I know the title is tung in cheek but I don't think there are any easy decision on what should be retained or removed from 6 to 7. All the features listed by OP were put in for a good reason.
     
  4. criZp

    criZp Emperor

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    1. Remove governors: Governors were a good idea. In civ 5 many people complained, rightfully so, that the policy system was too rigid i.e. if you started out focusing on military and picked honor, then you couldn't later in the game switch to a more peaceful playstyle without losing out on the bonuses from your honor picks. So in civ 6 they gave players much more flexibility with the new policy system. The problem with this system is that most policies are not a consistent bonus per turn, but rather bonuses that you could fully exploit in a matter of a few turns, and then have no use of the policy anymore. That creates a lot of policy management busywork, constantly swapping stuff in and out. Such a flexible system also doesn't contribute to the identity of your civ. I recall seeing people getting nostalgic about the civ 5 policy system, and perhaps in part because of that, governors were added to complement the civ 6 policy system. This could have helped give your cities and your civ more identity. But with bonuses being restricted only to one city, many of the bonuses would have very little use, and so you're allowed to move the governors around between cities. Governor's part of the loyalty system also depends on their mobility. This creates even more unit management busywork in a game that has too much unit management busywork. I think that city-based bonus trees, or just an open set of bonuses, can work as long as they are actually bound to cities rather than movable units. But I believe empire-wide bonuses are much easier to design.

    The system in civ 6 would be much better if, after adopting a policy, that policy would be locked in place for a significant number of turns. Not just 10 turns or 1 turn or whatever it takes to unlock a new civic. I'm talking about locked in place for up to 100 turns. The exact number could depend on the particular policy. An extra issue with the civ 6 policy system is that many policies were close to identical to a number of other policies, and many policies were quite weak. This made most of the policies boring, they felt like thoughtless filler for the new civics tree.

    Also, civ is a pretty basic game. And you have civ bonuses, leader bonuses, unique unit bonuses, unique building bonuses, policy bonuses, government bonuses, plaza bonuses, city state bonuses, great people bonuses, era dedication bonuses, congress bonuses, governor bonuses, religion bonuses... The devs try to build too many bonus systems on top of an overly shallow foundation. I really like how they gave great people and city states individual effects in civ 6, but the policies and the world congress stuff ended up being the opposite, don't like them at all.

    So for civ 7 the ideal is no governors, civ 6 policy system _without_ the option to constantly switch stuff, and policies that aren't primarily made to fill in some barebones civics tree. Get rid of the civics tree, revert to one single progress tree. Culture as a yield can be removed, policies can unlock in the progress tree and cities can have their borders grow when their population grows.

    Civ identity can be based on governments with their legacy bonuses, like in base civ 6. The thing that is important is that the bonuses accumulate fast enough that you actually notice them. The legacy bonus of autocracy was +1% wonder production speed per 20 turns, meaning that if you change to monarchy some 100 turns later you will have a +5% wonder production, shaving about 1-2 turns off a wonder. Completely pointless to implement bonuses so weak you don't notice them. But say that you got +1% wonder production speed, along with +0.5 food and 0.5 production in the capital, every 5 turns. So when you switch to monarchy after 100 turns, you get +20% wonder speed, and +10 food/production in the capital. That you will certainly notice. If you switched to something else after just 50 turns, the legacy of autocracy would still be significant enough to be noticeable.

    Well, this post sure became much longer than initially planned.
     
  5. Zegangani

    Zegangani King

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    I don't think that would make Civ7 good (better than Civ VI), Governors are just an addition and not even included in the base Game, and as @The_goggles_do_nothing said, they are there for a reason (their main use is granting Loyalty). I also don't agree with the conception (general opinion by many Players) of Governors being too micromanagement at all. Apart from Amani and Victor I rarely move my Governors around, and I don't have to, the City they are in still get the bonuses they provide. They are not like Units that you need to move around or manage, and they don't even give penalties, they're basically bonuses that you get from spending a Governor Point. Moving them is a decision, not a necessity. It's actually very similar to City-State Envoys (and Policy Cards to a certain degree), which you spend for a Bonus and also Suzerainty that you constantly need to fight over (micro), except for this latter you always have the possibility of an AI conquering/razing that City. Though I agree that many of the Governor Promotions encourage micromanagement.
    I personally see Governors as a great Potential to make Cities more interesting and also help them to specialize. So I would rather have them back in Civ7 but improved upon: more balanced, with less situational/temporary abilities but more unique abilities that help reduce micromanagemnt rather than the opposite (like automatically repair pillaged infrastructure...), with more regional Bonuses...etc. Actually, making Governors regional (affecting all cities in radius of the city they are established in) would make their abilities much more beneficial.

    I agree with @criZp in that Policy Cards should be more consistent and not easy to swap. Slotting/Removing Policy Cards should be something that doesn't just affect the bonuses you get from them, but also have some other side effects, like instability in your cities if you quickly change many policies in a short amount of Time, or slotting a policy that doesn't go well with your current Government/Ideology. Currently they feel like free bonuses that you can easily change whenever you want, and not as government decisions that can have serious implications for your empire.
    Apart from the part with Policies, I woldn't like Civ7 if they included those changes. My opinion on Governors I have already stated above, and I think now that the devs already introduced the Civics Tree that works just fine (neigher good/great nor bad, just fine enough IMHO) they just need to improve it a little bit more. The Cuture accumulation works pretty well in Civ6, I would personally just make the yield accumulate just like Gold and Faith, so you can use them to unlock instead of research Civics (and have a more dynamic civics tree), use them to claim Wonders, get Great Works...etc. maybe a portion of a City's Culture should always go to Border Expansion.
    Completely agree. There needs to be another way to make Golden/Dark Ages to work, the way they are now is too gamey and immersion breaking.
    I don't know what you mean by that. You mean completely removing Loyalty or just changing what affects Loyalty?
    Either a better version of the one in Civ 5 or nothing at all.
    Yep, Wonders need to be more worth it.
    I partially agree with this, and also to a certain degree also with Xandinho. My main Issue with Civ Abilities is rather that they encourage you to go for a certain Victory Type and/or Playstyle, otherwise not using those abilities feels like self-punishment, and I don't like Abilities that practically force me to play in a specific way. I want to play as Greece and go for a Science Victory without neglecting its Culture Bonuses. So I would rather see Civ Abilities help the Player with any Victory Approach, not necessary all but most of the Victory Types.
    There are many ways that could achieve the same thing without taking away the uniqueness of a Civ ability, I myself would go with this way, as suggested by @Boris Gudenuf:
    I think I will follow your example and also give my 7 steps for Civ7 to be good:

    1) Allow Different Unit Classes per tile, faster Units, and unlimited stacks for civilian Units, and make AI use Naval and Air Units more and in a better way.
    2) Improve Governments and the Policy System; make empire management an important and interesting part of the Game
    3) make the 2 Trees dynamic but also distinct from each other, there needs to be paths that you need to chose from (only get techs/civics from other paths through trade, espionage and diplomacy), in the Tech Tree it should be a decision, but in the Civics Tree it should be more tied to your environment and your Society, so you unlock civics (maybe with events) rather than research them whever you want.
    4) Give Leaders better personalities and improve the diplomacy in the Game. Each Leader should have different aggressiveness no matter the difficulty. And Diplomatic Relationships should be important.
    5) Trade and Trade Routes should be very important, for both diplomacy and economy, and Resources are the main factor for this. Trade Routes should be more automated and only stopped by embargoes and Wars. River and Sea Routes are more profitable and land routes more important.
    6) Better Balance of Wide vs Tall. No Features that make the game heavily lean towards one playstyle or the other as the optimal gameplay style.
    7) Better Game Pacing, as in you get to use all the features and stuff from an Era before the next Era hits. Production shouldn't scale linear between difficulties, I should be able to build and use more things in slower paced speeds than in faster paced ones.
     
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  6. reddishrecue

    reddishrecue Deity

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    I doubt many of these things would be removed from civilization and if they do then there would probably be something nicer on it.

    #1 Doubt it.. you know how Firaxis is.. They keep everything like ingredients added in a blender
    #2 Doubt it..
    #3 I think loyalty would be enhanced further and the aids wouldn't be removed and would do the opposite
    #4 This might be possible because there might be another way to make use of the stuff
    #5 This also I think is possible because they have removed abstain on some cases where you have to vote
    #6 Wonders I'm not sure, but there will probably will be more like usual
    #7 maybe, some civilizations do have a lot of information and its difficult to comprehend but you can read it again to know. Some are brief and easy to understand while others are longer and have more information.
    #8 I agree with this Stalin being brought back, yes.
     
  7. jsciv69

    jsciv69 Warlord

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    1 Realistic Graphics
    The Robot Chicken-like graphics and animations can be charming. But I would like to return to a more real-life look. Such as what we had in Civ-V.

    2 Rethink Religion
    The Religion system should be more historically based. Where as even in ancient times, many major Civilizations had populations with a diverse sets of beliefs. Not only did this come from migrating peoples. But the major belief systems were borrowed from others. Religious philosophies were being traded and peddled in antiquity times. So I see religious beliefs and philosophies traded between Civs. And also adopted from City-States. Maybe even learned after clearing Barbarian Camps.

    3 Towns
    After settling a full city. Lets have a portion of the populations form small towns. These towns can grow and evolve into new cities.

    4 Starting Era and Duration
    I move for an earlier starting age. 8000 BCE would be an ideal start if we want to start with full cities. 10000 BCE would be ideal if we want to start with camps and towns.
    The year increments should be reduced to about 10 years per turn. This give our Civs more time to develop and prepare for later eras.

    5 Settling Cities
    How frustrating is it to see a nice plot of land to settle. Then not being able to put a city there because it's too close to another City's borders. This is where we should go back to the mechanism of Civ-III. Where any land outside borders is fair game. I would like to bring back settling cities inside our own Civ borders. This was another great feature of Civ-III that should return.

    6 Starting Era and Era Durations
    I move for an earlier starting age. 8000 BCE would be an ideal start if we want to start with full cities. 10000 BCE would be ideal if we want to start with camps and towns.
    The year increments should be reduced to about 10 years per turn. This give our Civs more time to develop and prepare for later eras.

    7 Amphibious
    We need to bring back the Amphibious function we had in Civ-III. Where we can land units from sea transports. And we can also bring workers and settlers on transports to colonize overseas.
     
  8. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

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    Considering they are governors I'd at least give them regional bonuses, like cities 6 tiles away, or maybe 9 late game. Because I agree that bonuses towards only one city isn't always worth it.

    Anyway here's mine:
    1) Dynamic Districts: Instead of every commercial hub being the same why not have at least one choice buildings such as a market for more gold or a caravanserai for more trade capacity. Unique districts of civs can build buildings not usually of their type like a Greek Acropolis having a theater and a temple. Also most districts, at least in the early game, can only be built next to the city center to prevent them from looking disjointed.
    2) Nomadic Era: You are able to move around and set up a temporary encampment while spawning starting units and gather enough food and knowledge to learn agriculture to permanently settle.
    3) Culture Web: Branches of the culture web are unlocked after certain events. For example founding and establishing a religion will unlock the Religious branch which will allow you to build temples, establish a Theocracy etc.
    4) Tribes: Barbarians and Tribal villages are merged together to form different tribes which can be hostile, neutral, or peaceful.
    5) Reworked Culture Victory and Religion: I'd like to put the current religious victory as one half of the victory condition for the current culture victory, considering religion played a big part in the culture of many civilizations. The other half would be the current tourism criteria too. Ethnicity should also play a part. Citizens living in a city, whose ethnicity does not match the current city's owner, would be more likely to visit another city in their "home civilization" as foreign tourists.
    6) Corporations and Economic Victory: As a replacement for the Religious victory I'd like to add an Economic Victory to go along with Corporations, which could easily be to have a monopoly on more than half of the world's resources. I'd also like for each resource to get their own unique corporation bonus.
    7) Diseases/Pandemic: This could easily be a replacement of the current housing mechanic, natual disaster system, or an add on.
     
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  9. Xandinho

    Xandinho Deity

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    I know, but I think something like minister/secretary/counselor that would have global bonuses would be nicer, the current governors of Civ6 already work similar to secretaries anyway, their bonuses are just localized. So we could have a counselor for: administration, treasury, defence, diplomacy, infrastructure/zoning, culture/science, religious affairs, navy...as you go through the eras, you may have counselors for industry/energy, intelligence (espionage), health and environment.
     
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  10. jsciv69

    jsciv69 Warlord

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    I like the idea of bringing back those charming advisors from Civ-II. With each character dressed in the cultural traditions of each Civ.
     
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  11. SupremacyKing2

    SupremacyKing2 Deity

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    Here is a thought: when a player gets a Great Person, another thing they could do with the GP is appoint them to their Council. When appointed to the Council, they would give a unique civ wide bonus. The Council would have a military, economy, science, culture, and religious slot. So you could only put a GP in a slot that matches their type (Great General in a military slot, Great scientist in the science slot etc). This would bring back the Council idea, give an extra use for GP, allow the player to get extra bonuses in their civ. Plus, I think it would be cool to have a Council made up of historical great persons. Fo added flavor, the Great Persons in your Council could give advice to the player based on their historical examples. Or GP could also be appointed as governors of cities to add a bonus to that city. For example, a Great Scientist could boost science in that city. This would give the player more interesting things to do with GP and implement a Council and Governor system that is more fun IMO. I think it would be better than the current governor system.
     
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  12. rocksinmypath

    rocksinmypath Chieftain

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    I think adding governors might have been an attempt to give each city a special flavour, which is something I appreciate. Governors also make playing tall a tiny bit more attractive. For whatever reason I can't articulate, though, I never really liked the governor system, and I don't want to see it again. But I would love to see a more effective way of giving cities more specialization and making tall more viable. In fact, making tall style more valuable is one of the main things I'd like to see in Civ 7, because this will make settling decisions more interesting.

    Removing a lot of the micromanagement in Civ 6 would be a huge improvement as well. Lately, I've been toying with the idea of Civ without civilian units. Basically, no settlers, no builders, no traders, no archaeologists, no rock bands, no religious units, etc, and just reserve units for combat only. I haven't gathered all my thoughts on this, yet, but it'd involve a lot of shifting duties around. For instance, scouts can be given the ability to set up outposts, which start with 1 tile and 0 pop and act essentially as rally points for citizens from existing cities. As citizens move between cities, they make roads, which is done by traders in Civ 6. Getting rid of civilian units would clean up the map a lot and make late game less painful.

    I mentioned this in a different thread, but I really want Civ to ditch victory conditions, because religious and diplomatic victories don't add much value to the game. Both religion and diplomacy absolutely should be in the game, though, and they can be vastly improved if the devs would just unshackle them from these boring VCs. Specifically for diplomacy, one way to make it more significant is to give players more control over what resolutions get discussed. Allow each player to choose a resolution from a list of candidates appropriate for the era they're currently in (similar to era dedications), submit it with some number of votes, and only, let's say, top 3 resolutions get discussed. They should also fix how voting works, because the current hierarchical scoring makes absolutely no sense. I can put 20 votes on an option for a resolution that I really need and still not get it, even though the next most popular option has 8 votes because that one happens to belong in the more popular of the two coarse-level options. Why? I suppose it's because it was easy to work with how diplomatic points are earned, but this just makes accumulating diplomatic favour pointless. The devs added a lot of different features related to diplomacy, from world congress to the different ways of generating diplomatic favour like controlling city states and building diplomatic quarters (I think these are good features), only to cripple the whole system with their obsession with VCs, and diplomatic favour is basically only useful when you sell it to the AI for gold.
     
  13. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

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    True, that I could get behind.
    Though I also wouldn't mind some of them having both global and regional bonuses, with the regional ones being just more enhanced considering they would be more hand's on in that particular area. For example the counselor for religion's regional bonuses could be greater when placed in a holy city.
     
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  14. Krajzen

    Krajzen Deity

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    #0 For the love od God please change 1upt in its current form into something less micro heavy, less horribly painful to move large armies through rough terrain, less cluttering the map, less abstract and actually generating great field battles, less turn - times - prolonging, and something AI can grasp and use to consistently threaten human player through wholesale conquest of human property.

    If I don't bother with military because it is frustrating/exhausting to even move, and I know I will almost never lose any cities to AI anyway, it breaks half of the game. You can't have full 4X experience if you never feel defensive military threat, existential threat, not merely "oh geez this AI war declaration is going to be an annoying yet unthreatening tedious waste of time".

    At this point I'd trade 1upt for some Paradox style "pure strategy, no tactical layer" army movements, as at least it could be superior over 1upt in aforementioned six aspects even if it weren't particularly interesting beyond that (yes I am more emotional over eu4 spreadsheet army battles than over 1upt, at least in the former you feel weight and adrenaline and political impact of those huge spreadsheet battles, instead of eternal piecemeal skirmishing of 1upt)

    I consider fundamental 1upt problems to be impossible to solve - either by limitations of current technology (good luck designing modern era AI that can handle that kind of complex system with short turn times), or by the game format (too small scale of maps), or without sacrificing some fundamental things (rough terrain impact on warfare), or by its very nature (micromanagement of dozens of individual tokens which also create traffic jams; skirmishes of those tokens not amounting to the feel of a great decisive battle).
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2022
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  15. ShadowWarrior

    ShadowWarrior Prince

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    I am absolutely horrified that you did not include carpet of doom/one unit per hex in your elimination list. That's a very big oversight!!! GET RID OF ONE UNIT PER HEX PLEASE!!!!!!!!!
     
  16. GeneralZIft

    GeneralZIft Chieftain

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    I can't believe you Unit Stacker fanatics have overtaken my thread with your cult-like enthusiasm.
    Please curb your unwillingness to accept change, perhaps by filling another thread, cos there's a 90% chance that 1UPT is here to stay.

    Anyways, let's go over your suggestions.
    Xandinho and Alexander, as usual, godlike, keep up the good work.

    >Realistic Graphics
    Don't really care either way tbh, as long as its consistent

    >Civ2 Advisors
    Golden idea, I rate it 5 out of 7 (my new rating system)

    >Towns that turn into Cities
    Headache

    >Nomadic Era
    Would love to be able to actually scout the map before placing my first city

    >Make the Wonders worth building (in addition to Competitive)
    Yes man, Civ 6 wonders are like "+1 turd for each garbage can you find in the street"

    >Longer, less, immersive Eras
    Bless you - too tired of being in medieval for 3 minutes and dropping nukes 5 minutes later... the fun is in the journey not the ending

    >Tall vs Wide balance
    Civ 5 >>>>>>>> Civ 6 in this regard. Please for the love of god. I don't want this "covering the whole map meta". Please, my brain can only handle like 10 cities at a time.

    >Game Pace
    Building off of the last other one, they need to majorly fix this issue, preferably by doing away with the adjacency bonuses which provide excess yields than what is balanced.

    >Stacking units infinitely like some kind of goofy clown car, because that is obviously a good mechanic
    Wait didn't we do this one already?

    Until next time gents, thank you.
     
  17. SupremacyKing2

    SupremacyKing2 Deity

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    That's a strawman. Nobody is suggesting infinite stacks. I am certainly not. I am suggesting limited stacks. It does not have to be one or the other, either 1upt or infinite stacks.

    I find it equally silly that you can't even put 1 archer unit in the same hex as a warrior unit and have to shuffle units around just to move an archer one hex. What a fun mechanic! :rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2022
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  18. Krajzen

    Krajzen Deity

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    I also hate old style civ1 - civ4 unit stacking just as much or maybe even more than civ5 - civ6 1upt, I propose a third way which is very different from both.

    /thread
     
  19. Naokaukodem

    Naokaukodem Millenary King

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    Stalin was at least as bad as Hitler, so as long as we don't have Hitler, I don't think Stalin will be back. (was a mistake)
    On the other hand playing USSR or IIIrd Reich could be fun.............
     
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  20. jsciv69

    jsciv69 Warlord

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    Keep in mind this series has featured Queen Isabella at least 3 times. Plenty of blood on her ruthless hands. And Genghis Khan was not exactly an angel of mercy. neither was George Washington. So ruthlessness is not shied away from in the series.
    So if you-know-who is featured. I could counter with the likes of Castro or Khrushchev. They don't all have to be saints.
     

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