1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Eating Some Crow

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by toccoto, Oct 27, 2010.

  1. toccoto

    toccoto Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2009
    Messages:
    42
    I don't talk for everyone, never will. But, when I first played this game... I was unimpressed. Not just with the bugs, but with the direction. However, since the patch... I dunno if it was the patch, or time with the game or what, but it's gotten so much better! Seriously, it has me hooked! The AI seems more assertive, if but a little, and Emperor isn't a walk in the park anymore. (And don't give me the OMG it's easy stuff. I'm sure I could manipulate the game into winning easily with early rushes, or correct settings.)

    Also, flavor in a few mods, (Again, I don't want to hear people saying why should we mod an unfinished game. The point of mods is no two people want the same exact game. It's a GOOD thing to be able to customize your game. It's a GOOD thing to be able to add features you want that others may not.) And it's been... fantastic.

    As for DLC. I'm not a fan, never have been... But the more I think on it, it's going to be pretty cool to see packs with new buildings and new little tweaks that can add new strategies and new ways to play the game. I /hope/ the company sees it this way and doesn't overcharge with meaningless junk. If Firaxis makes DLC worth buying at a reasonable price, I don't see any problem with DLC. We will see how it goes, obviously. But... I am excited to see if they do building packs, etc.

    So... I guess I just wanted to stand up and eat some crow. All of the OMG CIV V FAIL, in my opinion, was over reaction without actually... giving the game a chance. If anyone else wants to add to it, feel free.
     
  2. Jharii

    Jharii King

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2007
    Messages:
    696
    Location:
    Walled Lake, MI
    I applaud your humility. It is refreshing to see people post in this manner. Thank you for your civility and your honesty.

    *bow*

    I do agree with the assessment on the AI. It is improved in the patch, but currently should be the number one priority. The most perfect game mechanics in history could be implemented, but it would not matter if there was an inferior AI in place using them.
     
  3. EmpireOfCats

    EmpireOfCats Death to Giant Robots

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2010
    Messages:
    522
    Location:
    Europe
    A nice gesture, OP. Have some virtual reputation.

    The patch did a lot for me, that and a mental shift to accept that Civ V is a totally different and new flavor of Civ. If you see it as a war game more than the classical empire building, it's pretty fun (Buddhists among the readers will an obvious lessons in suffering and craving, yes, I know).

    The big sticker will be the combat AI. If they can give it more of a brain without more of a performance hit, it's going to better than I feared after my first few hours.
     
  4. Jharii

    Jharii King

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2007
    Messages:
    696
    Location:
    Walled Lake, MI
    Aye. A brain. They need to develop a core memetic AI for this game so it learns along the way, both from itself and from players. The concept is simple. The implementation is complex. But once it was in place, it wouldn't have to be touched again except for minor tweaks here and there.
     
  5. AlpsStranger

    AlpsStranger Jump jump on the tiger!

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2009
    Messages:
    5,820
    Interesting. I've had a bit more convoluted journey in my Civ5 opinions. I was, at first, really impressed. Then I was sort of angry, then merely disappointed, and now I am just sort of quietly optimistic.

    I have a little crow of my own to eat. I'm now forced to admit that they may, while having fewer initial box sales, have been better off calling it something other than Civ5. Were it billed as something other than a direct successor to BTS many people would have found it far more likable on its own terms. People could have evaluated the game rather than constantly knee-jerking about it.

    They may still have found it imbalanced and overly easy, but they would not have felt somehow wronged or violated and that is probably the key difference.
     
  6. toccoto

    toccoto Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2009
    Messages:
    42
    You know, it's a difficult balance to keep the old while bringing new. Look at the latest Mario Games... People want what they are familiar with. I dig that, I do.

    But if I had to choose between getting a graphically updated Civ 4... Or a new experience, I'd choose the new experience. As a result, you gotta let it grow. It's a new step. I think it's a step in the right direction, a really good foundation. More will be built upon it.

    I will say this much: Leader Traits make the game better, I was weary of this but they do. No longer is it... Every Civ is just a different mix of core stats. Each civ feels and plays different. I just played a Hiawatha game that felt so completely different than what I was used to. Playing Greece, I would rush horses. Hiawatha, I rush Iron... Scout for forests, expand in that direction.

    1UPT is amazing for many reasons. The best one being choke points.

    Anyone who hates Civ V needs to at least download and try the Tectonic Maps. Go on high difficulty and just relish in the grabs for those Choke points, they are amazing.

    I agree land is bleh economically (I use a mod to help. Again, game isn't perfect, but mods are a good thing) But the land is so meaningful strategically.


    The one thing I will give negatively is... It's less of a builders game. Okay, it's still a building game but on a global level. People who relished in making perfect cities, and feeling like each city in their empire had a style it's own will be dissapointed. Cities have totally lost their identity, but the EMPIRE has gained so much more identity from the land to the Leader....

    I think that is the number one thing people need to understand. Cities lost identity, but the empire has gained a lot more. In Civ IV I'd look at my land and not really see anything past where to go next.

    In Civ V, I notice the mountains, choke points. It really becomes about identifying where the natural borders for your empire should be and filling them in. They did a great job of making it a detriment to your empire to try to expand to places that don't really fit the natural barriers. (Just like in Real Life. How many Empire end near rivers, or mountains, seas or oceans. Natural Barriers.). You fight a war through a well guarded checkpoint, you might eventually take it... But will come to find you've fallen behind the rest of the world for one city. And why is all of this suddenly meaningful? 1UPT.
     
  7. lietkynes

    lietkynes Hello sword !

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    883
    Location:
    Rome
    The patch fixed some horrible bugs but for me what did the trick and hooked me to the game was this compilation of mods (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=389368), now I can only play the game with this modpack and it really makes Civ5 a better game.
     
  8. Yngvi

    Yngvi Chevalier du Tastevin

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2008
    Messages:
    172
    Location:
    Frogtown, USA
    I didn't have as much problem with the new direction. However much I loved BtS I needed something new. My main problem was it was too easy, and the patch has taken a big step toward fixing it. It needs more work, but they've already done more than I thought they would.

    Like AlpsStranger, my opinions have had a rather "convoluted journey", going from initial joy to touching on despair right before the patch. Now I'm playing again and enjoying it.

    Genghis made a nice addition. I might even get some more DLC, which I would never have considered before the patch.

    I'm not too interested in mods yet, though I've experimented. I want to see what "offical" patches do to the game. I never modded BtS except by adding to the future era; there was such an elegance to the way the techs, resources, etc. were designed that I felt I would be blundering. I look forward to seeing if V can achieve that.
     
  9. DaveGold

    DaveGold Emperor

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2009
    Messages:
    1,058
    I would agree that the latest patch has added a lot more unseen cohesion to the game, presumably by removing rampant AI aggression and warmongering. Unfortunately there are a number of game breaking features still out there so you can play one good looking game and then a bad looking game afterwards.
     
  10. Tutkarz

    Tutkarz Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2010
    Messages:
    99
    I dont agree that everything will be fine. An example would be global happiness. They removed local happiness because they said, that there was no strategy in it. But now there is strategy? Not at all. You are still just forced to build happiness buildings when people are unhappy. You have no choice. But they introduced alot of problems with that removal: its harder now to make proper revolution and emigrants mod, its less realistic, its less fun and now you almost have no reason to watch your cities, because you know that nothing can be wrong in them. You are restricted to fund new towns. And i say why? What was wrong in having alot of cities? So we gained nothing and lost alot. And it wont be fixed.

    Yes i agree that with patch combat is now better. But then again if i would like to play a war game, then there is tons of better games than this and not so streamlined. Heck, i would even go back and play Panzer General again.
     
  11. brento1138

    brento1138 O' Mighty CivII Warrior

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2005
    Messages:
    104
    I gotta agree with the OP. I too found myself questioning whether Civ 5 was any good. No longer. I've had quite a few "addictive" games already and can say I got what I paid for. That said, I still think there are a few tweaks to improve the game, but I have faith in ole' Sid.

    Seriously, just wait until this game has a few expansion packs added. I think it'll blow us away...
     
  12. Jharii

    Jharii King

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2007
    Messages:
    696
    Location:
    Walled Lake, MI
    I can understand the direction they took, and in theory, it stays within the concept. Typically, actual leaders are concerned with the happiness of a nation as a whole, not individual communities. I know this is a generalization and does not necessarily apply universely, but more of a snapshot of the country's attitude.

    Does it work as a game mechanic? I think the jury is still out on that. To be honest, a hybrid of the two systems would be interesting to investigate. The city has its own happiness which affects city-based mechanics. The city happiness contributes to the "global" happiness, which affects global-based mechanics.
     
  13. Anthropoid

    Anthropoid Grognard fantome

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2004
    Messages:
    821
    Location:
    USA
    Very good to hear that some guys with initially negative are getting won over by patches and mods, etc. :)

    So I'm curious: the thing I loved about Civ and similar games was the detailed management of various domains of a society (each city being micromanageable, diplomacy, espionage, religion, military, etc.) all as integral pieces to one big strategic whole. Sometimes I might play as a builder, sometimes as a culture monger, sometimes as a pacifist diplomatic/wonder manipulator, sometimes as a colonist, sometimes as a conqueror. The representation of so many dimensions of social evolution in say Civ4 BTS with for example, Rise of Mankind or History in the Making mods, allowed for myriad strategic options in this respect.

    Would some of you guys who are playing it say that, the changes you are seeing are moving the game more back in that type of direction? Or is it just more basic remedial improvement from being lame to being a decent game.
     
  14. Jharii

    Jharii King

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2007
    Messages:
    696
    Location:
    Walled Lake, MI
    I think that they are laying down a foundation on which to build upon. Right now, they are working on tweaking that foundation to make sure that it is stable to support everything that they are going build on top of it.

    Right now, we have a number of basic elements of gameplay. Civics, diplomacy, science, etc. Right now, they are making their adjustments to these things so the core game is sound, stable, and balanced. While making these adjustments, they do start to take shape and you do start to see what the big picture is down the road.

    I feel that I have an understanding of what their vision of Civ5 is and I like the direction it is going. I won't really know if I am right or wrong (I most certainly do NOT presume I am right) until I see the first expansion, which should expand all of the aspects of gameplay. This is when I would also expect to see many added layers of complexity.

    My only real gripe has been the AI. I will say that the latest patch evolved it from a 5 year old to a 10 year old. It still has a ways to go, but if you have ever played a game with both age groups, you'll know what I mean. Before the patch, it was like the AI was moving units on the screen because they were cool and made neat noises. Now, it seems now that the AI understands the rules, and just needs to learn the strategy. The units are still cool, but now it knows what they are supposed to do.
     
  15. SuperJay

    SuperJay Bending Space and Time

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2010
    Messages:
    3,273
    Location:
    Shacklyn
    Hahaha, well said. That's EXACTLY the feeling I got. :lol:

    Haven't played since the patch, hopefully the wee lad's grown up a bit.
     
  16. Jharii

    Jharii King

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2007
    Messages:
    696
    Location:
    Walled Lake, MI
    Yeah, the real "growing" stage hasn't been reached yet. A 15-20 year-old really starts to be able to form complex strategies. I expect this to be the hardest step for Firaxis to make, for obvious reasons. Playing games with 10 year-olds can be fun, but typically you do this to please the 10 year-old. There is no self-fulfillment. Playing games with those that can offer you an actual intellectual challenge (15-20 year-old), starts to become much more rewarding.

    I am really hoping to see the upcoming patches grow the AI by 1 year, maybe 2, for each "major" patch.
     
  17. Anthropoid

    Anthropoid Grognard fantome

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2004
    Messages:
    821
    Location:
    USA
    Thanks for the respone Jharii. I'll remain hopeful that the lad will "grow up" to be a viable competitor ;)

    I suppose if this seemingly simplified version _is_ the foundation for a master plan to make Civ5 a truly complex simulation of cultural evolution that improves on Civ4 in every way, then I will happily eat crow, or recant, or whatever you'd want to call it. Though until I see it has happened, it feels crummy to me that I feel so conflictrf about supporting the latest incarnation of my favorite series for so many reasons. It just seems like they didn't have to alienate us so dramatically and make us wait for another year or so. Also, do you see them adding back in things like city management, religion, espionage? Without those dimensions modeled (and others too), I don't see how it is in my eyes ever going to be a real improvement on Civ4.
     
  18. SuperJay

    SuperJay Bending Space and Time

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2010
    Messages:
    3,273
    Location:
    Shacklyn
    This pretty much perfectly sums up my own attitude right now. I get called a "hater" because I criticize certain parts of the game (and the AI is the biggest problem IMO) but really, I just want a Civ5 that is engaging and challenging enough to offer more replayability. I'm not exactly pleased about having bought the game on layaway, but I'm hoping it will evolve into something more viable (for me) as Jharii mentioned.

    Cross your fingers. :p
     
  19. Jharii

    Jharii King

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2007
    Messages:
    696
    Location:
    Walled Lake, MI
    Obviously, I don't think that they intended to alienate anyone. Sometimes, when you are making design decisions, you simply think something is or is not a good idea at the time. Sometimes even in testing. Sometimes those things are not well received and as a company, you don't know until it's too late. Fortunately, with software, it's technically never too late.

    As for adding things back in... It's hard to say. They really could add on to civics in so many ways, including incorporation of religion. I think the sky is the limit on the civics mechanic, to be honest. I could even see them using the same style UI/builder for a unique religion mechanic. I will admit that I do miss seeing religion spread throughout my civilization. :)

    Espionage, I was never a big fan of how it was implemented. I would almost rather see something incorporated into the diplomacy mechanic or the advisors.

    Can you elaborate on what you mean by city management? Do you mean how you can set what percentage of resources go to which mechanic? Or do you mean something different?
     
  20. Toshiro126

    Toshiro126 Warlord

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2005
    Messages:
    229
    Location:
    Boston
    I saw a little of this last night in a game I was playing as Mongols. There was a very narrow land bridge separating my land from Persia's. When Persia declared war, they brought up destroyers on both sides of the land bridge to protect the infantry that was making it's way across. From that point on, the AI strategy wasn't great but I noticed a definite improvement. Hopefully things will improve with each patch. :goodjob:

    I never saw anythng like that, especially involving a navy, before the patch. The only invasion fleet I ever saw pre-patch was when Caesar decided to invade my continent by dropping a bunch of unguarded anti-aircraft guns on my shores and then had them walk in random directions. :crazyeye:
     

Share This Page