Economics Modcomp discussion

konradcabral

Prince
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Ok, but still FED is the only institution allowed to issue new dollars. What makes the difference? IMO once you give any bank ability to arbitrarily issue new uncovered money to lend it for interest, you won't ever get rid of the inflation.

Yes, but in the case of the dollar, this effect is smaller because not every dollar is used in the american economy instantly, people save it more than other currencies. Other particularity of the FED is the fact that they seek to control unemployment as well, which isn't a directly monetary variable. What I'm trying to say is "Don't imagine FED when you are picturing NRS".

Btw Phillips Curve was proven to be kinda bu.lsh.t.
Woa, this is a surprise, I never heard about it. In my book, Phillips was still valid. Where can I find this?

perhaps the superpower's currency is used as a reserve causing benefit for you?
For this to simulate reality well, it would need an currency exchange system, besides a trust in the currencies system too. Dollar isn't the reserve global currency because USA is the biggest economy, but because it's the more reliable one in the financial world's opinion. Obviously one has relation with another, but isn't a direct equation of cause and consequence.
 

sugarfree

Chieftain
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
39
Yes, but in the case of the dollar, this effect is smaller because not every dollar is used in the american economy instantly, people save it more than other currencies. Other particularity of the FED is the fact that they seek to control unemployment as well, which isn't a directly monetary variable. What I'm trying to say is "Don't imagine FED when you are picturing NRS".
Ok, it's your opinion. IMHO little but naive but valid :) I am conviced, that no matter what the CB's goals are, they are still driven by people, who have their interests, and can be easily influented from outside. If your CB in Brazil is immune to this, good for you. Under gold standard, unless they had excess gold reserves, they couldn't issue new money. Back then, deflation wasn't anything exceptional. Now the CB representatives aren't limited by anything. Just look at the charts, how inflation has risen rapidly in recent decades.

If we put a negative inflation modifier to NRS, we have to reduce inflation for gold standard and state coinage too, because these two were, assuming the metal reserves stayed somewhat constant, undoubtfully less inflation-sensitive.
 

konradcabral

Prince
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Messages
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Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
Ok, it's your opinion. IMHO little but naive but valid :) I am conviced, that no matter what the CB's goals are, they are still driven by people, who have their interests, and can be easily influented from outside. If your CB in Brazil is immune to this, good for you.

There are checks and balances available that greatly diminish the outsiders influence. Once more taking the Brazilian case: we had an enourmous inflation when the CB was directly controlled by the executive. When we gave it more independence, the rate fell greatly, because the unique goal of the CB was control it by the interest rate level. Even with gigantic political pressure to decrease interest, they didn't fell and inflation is controlled till today. But, starting over our discussion, I think I finally understood your meaning. Let's check: you gave a +% to NRS because you were thinking about it in opposition to Gold Standard, and I gave it a -% because I was picturing it in opposition to State Bank. That was the misundertanding, I guess. Let's give NRS a +0% inflation then. Agreed?

If we put a negative inflation modifier to NRS, we have to reduce inflation for gold standard and state coinage too, because these two were, assuming the metal reserves stayed somewhat constant, undoubtfully less inflation-sensitive.

About NMStandard, OK. But why State Coinage too? Again, State Coinage for me is a metal-based currency similar to the modern State Bank. Am I incorrect?
 

sugarfree

Chieftain
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Jan 6, 2010
Messages
39
Well, the state bank has already some +100% inflation, so even if the NRS gets +10%, the difference is huge. I was trying to balance all the civics. But +0% is fine, why not.

About NMStandard, OK. But why State Coinage too? Again, State Coinage for me is a metal-based currency similar to the modern State Bank. Am I incorrect?
I don't know man, this is so hard to imagine, because, as you pointed out earlier, the civ engine doesn't quantify resources. One source of iron can supply single city state, aswell as huge empire. That kinda sucks.
The main idea is, that if there are no new significant sources of metals, the inflation just isn't possible (assuming the economy isn't declining), because there is nothing to make the new money of. But there is no way to determine how significant the metal sources are, and therefore if they can seriously affect the inflation. Maybe we could put there same mechanism we use for NMS - more sources you have available, higher inflation you suffer. But generally, IMHO there is no reason to expect bold long-term inflation in such a system. However, this is kinda questionable.

Man, I feel like i spent whole day in this forum :) I just can't concentrate on studying. At least it's finally friday night. Time to go have fun :)
 

sugarfree

Chieftain
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
39
Hey guys, this place is dead. Any new comments or ideas? Aforess, would you need any help with implementing some of the changes in the game, just let me know. I am actually quite psyched to see it work :)
 

sugarfree

Chieftain
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
39
Btw conradcabral, you asked me about the phillips curve. I am not the one to explain what's wrong with it, bur if you are interested, look for some of Friedman's work on this topic. He did great job analyzing it. I am his huge fan btw.
 

konradcabral

Prince
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It's already settled, sugar. Afforess will do it for AND 1.70. The name of the Modcomp will be "It's the economy, stupid!". But the economic discussion and the flow of ideas should go on, I agree.

About Phillips, Friedman didn't prove the curve wrong. As far as I know, he improved, evolved it like a Pokémon, but didn't invalidate it.
 

sugarfree

Chieftain
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Jan 6, 2010
Messages
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Good to hear that. However, a lot of betatesting is going to be needed if we apply the ideas as they are.

What I know, Friedman proved that the phillips curve basically applies only in very short-term, but in long-term, simple inflation/unemployment ratio doesn't work out. But that's not important, many economists even today cannot agree on that. I doubt we can solve it :-D
 

sugarfree

Chieftain
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
39
Btw since I have some time now (finished all exams), let me induce some new ideas. First of all, how about creating a new type of diplomatic agreement - "Free Trade Zone Agreement"? Let's see what the effects could be like:

Free Trade Zone Agreement
- +25% foreign trade routes yield
- tech diffusion (research is even more boosted if partner already has the tech)
- -25% espionage missions cost
- diplo penalty for trading with worst enemies is even more serious
 

Afforess

The White Wizard
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Btw since I have some time now (finished all exams), let me induce some new ideas. First of all, how about creating a new type of diplomatic agreement - "Free Trade Zone Agreement"? Let's see what the effects could be like:

Free Trade Zone Agreement
- +25% foreign trade routes yield
- tech diffusion (research is even more boosted if partner already has the tech)
- -25% espionage missions cost
- diplo penalty for trading with worst enemies is even more serious

Sounds cool. Perhaps it should require an embassy though?
 

konradcabral

Prince
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Messages
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Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
Good to hear that. However, a lot of betatesting is going to be needed if we apply the ideas as they are.

Specially with the new inflation calculation. I repeat, if we screw inflation, we screw the game.

Do you have any ideas about techs? I mean, what indisputable improvements economic thinking brought to mankind?
 
Joined
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Messages
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Canberra, Australia
Btw since I have some time now (finished all exams), let me induce some new ideas. First of all, how about creating a new type of diplomatic agreement - "Free Trade Zone Agreement"? Let's see what the effects could be like:

Free Trade Zone Agreement
- +25% foreign trade routes yield
- tech diffusion (research is even more boosted if partner already has the tech)
- -25% espionage missions cost
- diplo penalty for trading with worst enemies is even more serious
Sounds cool. Perhaps it should require an embassy though?

Shouldn't it require "right of passage" ie non-military movement rather than just embassy. It may make me allow non-military units to enter my lands since currently I only make embassies and never let any non-vassal units enter my lands. ;)
 
Joined
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Messages
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Specially with the new inflation calculation. I repeat, if we screw inflation, we screw the game.

Do you have any ideas about techs? I mean, what indisputable improvements economic thinking brought to mankind?

Well the first one would have to be the idea of personal wealth or individual ownership. A nice new ancient era tech :lol:
 

sugarfree

Chieftain
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
39
Sounds cool. Perhaps it should require an embassy though?

Yeah I'd say definitely an embassy or Right of Passage, or even Open borders should be required. Those kinds of free trade zones are fairly exclusive and players should be very cautious signing them, because it might help their rivals to catch up in techs.

IMHO also certain civics could be required to sign these. Under mercantilism, there is no way to sign such an agreement.
 

civ_king

Deus Caritas Est
Joined
Mar 9, 2006
Messages
16,368
Btw since I have some time now (finished all exams), let me induce some new ideas. First of all, how about creating a new type of diplomatic agreement - "Free Trade Zone Agreement"? Let's see what the effects could be like:

Free Trade Zone Agreement
- +25% foreign trade routes yield
- tech diffusion (research is even more boosted if partner already has the tech)
- -25% espionage missions cost
- diplo penalty for trading with worst enemies is even more serious

seems good for when I get an Era ahead of the AI
 

konradcabral

Prince
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Jan 17, 2008
Messages
491
Location
Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
Now that AND 1.60 was released I suppose it's time to come back to this thread, since it's scheduled for 1.70.

Afforess, I have questions and requests:

- Do you plan to code exactly what's written in the OP or will you add only what you want the way you want? After all, you have executive powers. :)

- Could you code two versions of it? One with sugarfree's new inflation formula and one without? Because as I have already stated, inflation has a game-destrutive potential, and it need extensive testing before it's applied.

- Do you think I deserve credit for it? If yes, please credit sugarfree too.

I'm very excited about this becoming reality! :)
 

Afforess

The White Wizard
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Messages
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Austin, Texas
Now that AND 1.60 was released I suppose it's time to come back to this thread, since it's scheduled for 1.70.

Afforess, I have questions and requests:

- Do you plan to code exactly what's written in the OP or will you add only what you want the way you want? After all, you have executive powers. :)

The stats on the OP are going to be the basis for the mod. I may change things after everything is done, but only if I feel that something is too powerful, or too weak.

- Could you code two versions of it? One with sugarfree's new inflation formula and one without? Because as I have already stated, inflation has a game-destrutive potential, and it need extensive testing before it's applied.

I can do that.

- Do you think I deserve credit for it? If yes, please credit sugarfree too.

Obviously ;)
 

Afforess

The White Wizard
Joined
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Austin, Texas
Okay, I went over the OP so I know what I have aleady and what I need to add. I have a few concerns, however

1.) The Welfare State Tech seems unnecessary. I don't think Welfare States form from a technological advancement, rather they form as a result of politicians increasingly using pork legislation to pass unpopular laws. What do you think?

2.) I don't see the need to create a speculator specialist, it seems too similar to the existing merchant. Why not just use that instead?

Fortunately, I think I can do everything you requested. I'm beginning immediately. ;)
 
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