Economics Modcomp discussion

konradcabral

Prince
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Messages
491
Location
Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
Countries don't really do this anymore.

Actually some still do. It's consensus that is not smart to do it, but they still do. Not consolidated democracies like Brazil or USA, but totalitarian governments still finance their excesses printing money and building up inflation.

Back to the monetary slider: I think it might be cool, let's dig a little deeper.
1) The positive side causes inflation, the negative side causes decrease of inflation, not deflation. Also, if you keep going it back and forth, back and forth, this behavior would create an inertial inflation. People will just expect more inflation, because they know how irresponsible their government is. This expectation of inflation, by itself, creates more inflation, as much as people are indexing their payments to a inflation which don't happened yet.
2) As frekk wisely appointed, modern countries don't do it, they know it's harmful. So, let's control it by the monetary civics. The monetary slider will be active only with: State Coinage, Noble Metal Standard, Private Coinage and State Bank.
 

Afforess

The White Wizard
Joined
Jul 31, 2007
Messages
12,239
Location
Austin, Texas
Maybe allow loan system in diplomacy, which would look like following - borrowing certain sum for certain amount of turns (5, 10 - ?) with interest in % agreed upon both sides, and penalty % per turn when debt can't be paid in time (optionally). Maybe make it so that loan amount (total loan from multiple sources) cannot be higher than amount GNP x2-3-4?

When agreement is made, there will be agreed period during which loan taker should accumulate money, after which money/science slider moves to gold and gold automatically substracts to creditor (this can be done for few turns till payment and % are fully paid out). Also % per turn in case of delaying debt should be added too. Declaring war upon creditor should not effect loan.

Also, as an option, units and cities (we can trade them now anyway) could be made as objects of safety deposits for loan (as alternative to % penalties if not paid in time), so creditor can hold them to himself if loan isnt paid in time.

I don't think I could ever get the AI to be competent with such a task.

Countries don't really do this anymore. They do print paper money, but only a tiny fraction of the money supply is paper (and they borrow the money they're printing before they actually print it, rather than just issuing it out of the blue).

There was only really a very short period of time (between the gold standard and Bretton Woods - from 1931 - or 1933 in the US case - to 1946) when countries were just printing money backed by nothing. Under the gold standard they could technically print as much money as they liked, but this didn't actually increase the total value of their specie; they basically had to have more gold to do it safely.

It happened a lot more than that. Read up on the Confederated States of America, each state had their own currency, and some of them had massive inflation (see Southern states) to please the farmers (debtors), while others in the north had low inflation or deflation to please the merchants. Before Economics was well understood, Kings and Tyrants would often inadvertently or purposely increase or decrease the money supply. See Spain in the 1500's for this. They brought back lots of Gold from the new world, and it inundated the market, making the gold worthless, causing complete economic failure.

However, even if it had been limited to a short time frame, as you say, that doesn't exclude it from being a feature. Relatively speaking, Democracy has barely existed as a form of government. 98% of the time, humans have lived under some form of Tyranny. Does that mean we should exclude Democracy as a civic? ;)


Actually some still do. It's consensus that is not smart to do it, but they still do. Not consolidated democracies like Brazil or USA, but totalitarian governments still finance their excesses printing money and building up inflation.

Back to the monetary slider: I think it might be cool, let's dig a little deeper.
1) The positive side causes inflation, the negative side causes decrease of inflation, not deflation. Also, if you keep going it back and forth, back and forth, this behavior would create an inertial inflation. People will just expect more inflation, because they know how irresponsible their government is. This expectation of inflation, by itself, creates more inflation, as much as people are indexing their payments to a inflation which don't happened yet.
2) As frekk wisely appointed, modern countries don't do it, they know it's harmful. So, let's control it by the monetary civics. The monetary slider will be active only with: State Coinage, Noble Metal Standard, Private Coinage and State Bank.

1.) Okay, you know more than me. ;)
2.) Good idea. I agree with that. One note, if someone forces a universal currency in the UN, the slider should be removed, regardless of civic.

Instead of allowing negative gold per-se, what if governments could issue general bonds? Not via diplomacy, since individual bond owners are the largest market for bonds. Issuing a few bonds once in a while is fine, but having lots of outstanding bonds would flood the market and drive interest rates on future bonds up, as well as stifle the economy (e.g a negative modifier on gold production).

I imagine an "Issue Bond" button could be added to the Financial Advisor screen, with a customizable value, and it would give you the APR for it, and the time until the bond expires.
 

Darken24

Chieftain
Joined
Oct 21, 2009
Messages
75
Maybe allow loan system in diplomacy, which would look like following - borrowing certain sum for certain amount of turns (5, 10 - ?) with interest in % agreed upon both sides, and penalty % per turn when debt can't be paid in time (optionally). Maybe make it so that loan amount (total loan from multiple sources) cannot be higher than amount GNP x2-3-4?

When agreement is made, there will be agreed period during which loan taker should accumulate money, after which money/science slider moves to gold and gold automatically substracts to creditor (this can be done for few turns till payment and % are fully paid out). Also % per turn in case of delaying debt should be added too. Declaring war upon creditor should not effect loan.

I know Alpha Centauri had something like this where you ask for X amount of cash from one of the ai's and then pay Y amount yearly for Z years ending up with you paying back much more than you borrowed of course and during war the loan payments are put on hold till the war ends and they continued again
 

konradcabral

Prince
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Messages
491
Location
Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
Instead of allowing negative gold per-se, what if governments could issue general bonds? Not via diplomacy, since individual bond owners are the largest market for bonds. Issuing a few bonds once in a while is fine, but having lots of outstanding bonds would flood the market and drive interest rates on future bonds up, as well as stifle the economy (e.g a negative modifier on gold production).

I imagine an "Issue Bond" button could be added to the Financial Advisor screen, with a customizable value, and it would give you the APR for it, and the time until the bond expires.

Very good idea. If you manage to code this properly (AI included), I don't know where we are going to stop. :king:
 
Joined
Jul 5, 2004
Messages
23,561
Location
Canberra, Australia
I know Alpha Centauri had something like this where you ask for X amount of cash from one of the ai's and then pay Y amount yearly for Z years ending up with you paying back much more than you borrowed of course and during war the loan payments are put on hold till the war ends and they continued again

Civ II, or I, had this as well. Loaning and borrowing (or not) also had effects on civ relationships.
 

Afforess

The White Wizard
Joined
Jul 31, 2007
Messages
12,239
Location
Austin, Texas
I've been making good progress on the framework for this mod. If you check my todo list, I've finished the Technology tags I needed, and am making progress with civics. I've been going slower than I would like due to a nasty cold I got wend that shows no signs of letting up, and the facts that I seem to have put the hardest tags first in the civic list.
 

konradcabral

Prince
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Messages
491
Location
Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
It's good to read this. BTW, what was your decision about the speculator specialist? Will you add it?

I hope you get better from your cold. :sad:
 

konradcabral

Prince
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Messages
491
Location
Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
Afforess, with the yesterday's turn of events (which I fully support and endorse), do you still plan to do this modcomp? Is it still scheduled for 1.73? I've been watching the Beta To Do List, and although it only miss 3 itens, it have been standstill for a time now. Are you having problems with it or just being overwhelmed by the amount of work?

Also, I read in another thread that you still appreciate compliments of your work. I thought you are tired of them... And I realized I am shut up for a long time, so: your work is wonderful, in terms of creativity, speed and quality. Your relation with us, your "customers", which don't pay nothing for it, is a beautiful thing to watch. You listen all our ideas, you discuss it, you improve it, you do it. This is priceless. Thank you very much, balrog killer.
 

Afforess

The White Wizard
Joined
Jul 31, 2007
Messages
12,239
Location
Austin, Texas
Afforess, with the yesterday's turn of events (which I fully support and endorse), do you still plan to do this modcomp? Is it still scheduled for 1.73? I've been watching the Beta To Do List, and although it only miss 3 itens, it have been standstill for a time now. Are you having problems with it or just being overwhelmed by the amount of work?

Yes I am. I was aiming for a 1.73 release, but with how buggy 1.72 was; I need to simply get a stable version out. I've updated my todo list with more realistic standards.

Also, I read in another thread that you still appreciate compliments of your work. I thought you are tired of them... And I realized I am shut up for a long time, so: your work is wonderful, in terms of creativity, speed and quality. Your relation with us, your "customers", which don't pay nothing for it, is a beautiful thing to watch. You listen all our ideas, you discuss it, you improve it, you do it. This is priceless. Thank you very much, balrog killer.

Thanks. :lol:
 

Afforess

The White Wizard
Joined
Jul 31, 2007
Messages
12,239
Location
Austin, Texas
I know there was discussion on another thread about this mod being stalled over my lack of a decision to make this an installer option or in-game option.

I have decided. I'm going to make this a gameoption. Before the knashing of teeth over dropped content begins let me inform you of my changes:

All the new techs and changes to techs will be left as is on the OP. I can disable/enable techs via Gameoptions just fine (Usable Mountains turned off disables and hides Mountaineering, FYI) so that is not an issue. The building changes are minor, and so will be easy to include as well, and will be left as is on the OP.

I haven't decided yet if I will add the new Speculator Specialist or not. I feel it's too close to Merchents, despite SugarFree's and konradcabral's insistence. If enough people agree with one side or another, I will probably go with the majority view.

As for Civics, I will be taking the civic changes on the OP, but the "New Civics" are going to be merged in with the existing Economic civics, as I don't see a real need to create a new civic column for very similar ideas. I may keep some of the name changes that the OP suggests, and most of the stats, but there will be no additional civics, just modified existing ones.

Expect The "Advanced Economy" game option in 1.74 ;)
 

konradcabral

Prince
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Messages
491
Location
Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
All the new techs and changes to techs will be left as is on the OP. I can disable/enable techs via Gameoptions just fine (Usable Mountains turned off disables and hides Mountaineering, FYI)

I didn't know this possibility, so I'm completely OK with a gameoption feature.

I haven't decided yet if I will add the new Speculator Specialist or not. I feel it's too close to Merchents, despite SugarFree's and konradcabral's insistence. If enough people agree with one side or another, I will probably go with the majority view.

You have one vote for the speculator. I repeat, he can be the Registered Mark of this modcomp...

As for Civics, I will be taking the civic changes on the OP, but the "New Civics" are going to be merged in with the existing Economic civics, as I don't see a real need to create a new civic column for very similar ideas. I may keep some of the name changes that the OP suggests, and most of the stats, but there will be no additional civics, just modified existing ones.

This is the only bad new for me. Economic system is a very different thing from money printing... Couldn't you at least create another checking box named "Monetary Civics"?

Expect The "Advanced Economy" game option in 1.74 ;)
:king:
 

Killtech

Discutator
Joined
Apr 16, 2009
Messages
1,022
Location
Bonn, Germany
I haven't decided yet if I will add the new Speculator Specialist or not. I feel it's too close to Merchents, despite SugarFree's and konradcabral's insistence. If enough people agree with one side or another, I will probably go with the majority view.

i'm against it. isn't a speculator just a merchant who trades with stock and shares?
 

Arakhor

Dremora Courtier
Super Moderator
Joined
Mar 27, 2009
Messages
38,313
Location
UK
I think it's one too many specialists as well.
 

Afforess

The White Wizard
Joined
Jul 31, 2007
Messages
12,239
Location
Austin, Texas
KonradCabrel, or anyone interested, I would appreciate icons and quotes for the 4 techs listed on the OP.
 

konradcabral

Prince
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Messages
491
Location
Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
I'll look for the quotes in Wikiquote, but I have no clue about making icons.

Can someone help us with it, please?
 
Top Bottom