1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Economy management

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by David Young, Jul 8, 2017.

  1. David Young

    David Young Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2017
    Messages:
    16
    Gender:
    Male
    Hi,
    I'm new to forum and relatively new to civ4. Played a LOT of original ci v game plus civ rev but didn't realise the series still existed on pc! So very happy and have had a lot of guidance from this forum. I've played lower difficulty level on but I am trying to do emperor using super specialist cities, but I cannot get the economy sorted out. Cannot seem to get anywhere and rarely get research above 50% cos constantly battling economy shortfalls. Got to 1800 or so on multiple grids and just seem to be going backwards in relation to an players. Guidance and help would be greatly appreciated.

    David

    Moderator Action: Welcome to CivFanatics. Moved your thread to Strategy and Tips as it is a discussion for that section. Good luck. leif
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 8, 2017
  2. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2008
    Messages:
    21,779
    say what?! ...lol...civ is pretty much exclusively pc (and now on its sixth iteration)

    Requested move to Strategy & Tips forum:

    https://forums.civfanatics.com/forums/civ4-strategy-tips.155/

    Sound like maybe you read something about economies - something maybe that is best you not do now or too complicated until you improve your game

    Civ IV is about strong early game and the snow ball effect. We need to see your game (saves, screenshots), but late game stuff does little good for learning right now.

    Super Specialist Economy or whatever you think you are trying to do is not really what you should be focusing on right now.

    You need help with the basic mechanics, and especially getting off to a strong start. Best way to learn is to post a game in S&T and walk through it with helpful members here. Use normal settings and maps. (no huts and no events)

    Lastly, I often find the newer players think their economy is in far worse shape than it actually is, but inexperience just makes them not handle all the aspects properly. It's takes time to get a feel for the sliders and management of your commerce, but one thing would definitely advise is not to get caught up with arbitrary slider percentages, which is meaningless.

    edit: Oh yeah..and welcome to CFC ..and to Civ IV (the best game ever)
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2017
  3. David Young

    David Young Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2017
    Messages:
    16
    Gender:
    Male
    Lymond,

    Thanks v much for reply. My way of getting to grips with game such as this is to play on low difficulties first and work my way up, knowing i will have to keep learning more and more re strategy eff as I go along. I replay the same starting game many times over, hopefully improving each time. I'm still replaying the same archipelago/emperor world as when I posted but I've back to beginning three times since making the post. Doing quite a bit better this time around.

    I read on one of the very many posts on this forum re super specialist cities i.e. one for science, one economy, one military. The idea is to specifically produce great scientists eff in the different cities. This is exactly how I remember having most success in original civilisation game.

    I've been quite successful with science city and military city but only this last attempt has done ok with economy. Have managed to keep above 50% research and am at 1892 AD at 90% with a small money surplus, mainly because I finally got a religion - game grabbed hindu And buddha before me (Saladin Leader), so I started differently and got judaism which thern spread well and makes lots of money - this has made all the difference.

    I don't know whether I'm getting unnecessarily critical on myself, thinking I'm too far behind on research and thinking I'll never catch up. At the moment, at 1875, I'm six techs behind each of top three AI players but recently caught up by trading with many players ( biology did the trick) only for them to be six or so techs ahead again five go's later.

    Is this normal at this level and should I persevere even though it's quite disheartening?

    Additionally, is it possible to switch off the predictive text when writing these posts?

    Thanks a lot for helping out. If it would be helpful, please explain how and i will send one of more saves and I would rea!ly appreciate your comments.

    David
     
  4. Anysense

    Anysense King

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2015
    Messages:
    928
    I suggest you join Nobles' Club. Playing the same map along with other players and discussing your game is one of the best ways to learn.
     
  5. Pedro78

    Pedro78 King

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2016
    Messages:
    985
    Hey David !

    It indeed isn't normal to be several techs behind the top AI on emperor at this point of the game. This means there are several things you are doing wrong in this game, but we can't really figure out what your problems are, because the information you give us isn't very clear/detailed. I think the best way to learn this game is, as Lymond said, to start a new game and create a thread in the S&T forum, playing small turnsets and waiting for advice. This will give you a better feel of how this game should be played ;)

    Another thing I'd recommend is to watch some civ4 let's plays on YouTube (chris67132, Lain Civ 4 Deity, Imploading). This is how I learned to play Civ4.

    Last but not least, if I were you I'd read the Civ Illustrated guides that can be found in the Civ4 Strategy Articles forum section. These are very well written guides about the basic game mechanics.
     
  6. elmurcis

    elmurcis Emperor

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2011
    Messages:
    1,092
    Location:
    Latvia
    This propably explain why (without knowing anything more)... Well, good research % is good thing but... 30% of 500 will give you more than 60% of 200 :)
     
  7. Pangaea

    Pangaea Rock N Roller

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2010
    Messages:
    5,174
    In addition to the excellent advice above, I'd just like to comment on the tech percentage. New players tend to overfocus on this, and think their economy is in a worse state than it really is. For instance, consider:

    30% of 1000 :science:
    70% of 200 :science:

    Which is better? ;)

    Oi, way to ninja me @elmurcis
     
  8. Pangaea

    Pangaea Rock N Roller

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2010
    Messages:
    5,174
  9. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2008
    Messages:
    21,779
    Yeah, if you are on low levels - prince or below - it is very very bad that you are behind in tech. In fact, you should be absolutely blowing AIs out in tech. But, granted, you are a new player. Just mentioning this for perspective.

    As mentioned, don't get caught up with % of research. You mainly want to be running 100% research and there a ways to do that...if you can't then you are max collecting gold via slider and trades. AIs do have less gold on lower levels.

    I don't know what your are doing with the great people you are generating, but the premise of that economy is building the Mids. It's more advanced concept that really is situational. I don't recommend it for you. Look into the hybrid economy. Regardless, specialists and great people are always important - it is how you use them that counts.

    You have a lot to learn and we are here to help. We need to see your games. A shadow game works wonders.
     
  10. Fish Man

    Fish Man Emperor

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2010
    Messages:
    1,235
    @elmurcis @lymond @Pangaea:

    I, too, struggled with being a bit too caught up with obsessing over maintaining a high beaker percentage instead of expanding properly. After all, something about running a lower % just feels wrong to you, I'd imagine, despite 30% of 1000 being objectively higher than 70% of 200.

    My suggestion is to run binary research, always - even when you move into the lategame (unless you really need gold for upgrades, OR are aiming for a key tech like lib or CoL -> CS slignshot which can't wait). You should do this for three reasons:

    1. The way rounding works in this game, I think decimals are truncated at one point or another in the commerce-to-beakers calculation, which means that if you don't do 100% of one and 0% of another you're losing out on a bit of both, which can add up significantly, especially in the early game when numbers are small.

    2. It helps you get a feel for generally how well your economy's doing, and how much your overall maximum potential BPT/commerce is. If you run 100% science and get -100gpt, and a couple turns later you run 100% science and have only -50gpt, you know your economy's improved by quite a bit in that timeframe, whereas that's harder to see if you run, say, 60-40. Similarly, if at 100% research you get 500 bpt, but a dozen turns down the road you're getting 600 bpt, it gives you a greater feel for how much your research is improving or if it's increasing at the rate you need it to be.

    3. The psychological effect - running always 100% or 0% will help stop you from being overly and irrationally attached to maintaining a high beaker %. I think this is because -gpt will almost always happen when you run 100% research, so your brain will become detached from the notion that -gpt = bad, and instead be more inclined to want total maximum potential bpt to increase (when research is at 100%), which can be only done by expanding or building infrastructure. Not completely sure how this works, and I am not a pscyhologist, but it sure helped me kick the habit.

    I guess, in terms of milestones - you should have AT LEAST 2000 bpt and be able to run less than a -50gpt deficit by the end of the game, if going for a science victory. Build wealth and research if you have nothing else to build.

    I hope this helps! And, as lymond says, a shadow game would also help greatly.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2017
  11. Pedro78

    Pedro78 King

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2016
    Messages:
    985
    I have to disagree with that. Late game bpt depends on how much land you have, and -50gpt is completely irrelevant as your maintenance will always be higher than 50gpt at this point of the game, so you only maintain a low deficit by building wealth. In certain cases, a useful milestone is 200+ bpt at 1AD (if you already have Civil Service), of course it isn't always relevant because many things can vary in the early game.

    I'm only saying that so David doesen't get false ideas, no offense meant @Undefeatable :)
     
  12. Fish Man

    Fish Man Emperor

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2010
    Messages:
    1,235
    Hmm, maybe. What I'm saying, then, is you should have enough land for at least 2000 bpt at the end, if you're going for space. If this involves eating up a neighbor or two, so be it, and be proactive in your conquests. Also, the -50gpt or less is taking into account all your cities building wealth to offset maintenance, which by this point most of them should be doing most of the time, save for SS parts. Does this sound reasonable?
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2017
  13. Pedro78

    Pedro78 King

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2016
    Messages:
    985
    Well it definitely sounds better, but I still wouldn't consider that as a milestone. I've won space races in the late 1700s on deity with 1000bpt or less in the end game (in OCCs). In other cases you can end up with 5000+ bpt in the late game. It all depends on the circumstances. Of course if it's 1800AD and you're running at 500bpt there's something wrong.
    If your economy is in good shape you should definitely be at a net positive gpt when running 100% research slider if you build wealth in all of your cities, which is very often not the case until the very end game. So I'd say your -50gpt benchmark can be true, but it isn't really significant. I don't think there can be any valid late-game benchmark, because the late game can vary so much.
    For now, focusing on the early game, especially the first 100 turns, is much more important.
     
  14. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2008
    Messages:
    21,779
    And this really is the best advice Mr. Young can get from us right now

    Undefeated...binary research is indeed important early, but its import lessens as the game goes on. Ideally, you will eventually try to run 100% research as much as possible later on...and there is often multiple ways of acquiring lots of gold..besides just building the wealth. Plus, evolving to hammer economy really factors in. Granted that is mainly for Space games, possibly UN. To clarify, I'd rather keep some % of research going per turn when I'm pumping out several hundred beakers per turn anyway at X% anyway. Then bump to 100% when I get the gold one way or another. But I don't get caught up with what X% is...it's just the relative factor of pumping out quite a bit of beakers regardless.

    But early on, before an economy is really built up and Currency, binary really pays off during expansion and the early stages...100 turns or so.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2017
  15. Fish Man

    Fish Man Emperor

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2010
    Messages:
    1,235
    I agree. First 100 turns can and will make or break your game...I learned this the hard way. And I was talking more about the psychological effect of binary research in kicking the "must keep slider above specific %" habit, but yeah, sure, it does become numerically less important later.

    OP: There's a lot more all of us could say about how to play the first 100 turns, but it actually helps if you post a game and ask people to walk you through it, speaking from personal experience.
     

Share This Page