Egypt as a full civ

[merijn_v1]

It wouldn't be very hard, only time consuming. But what's the point? As you mentioned yourself, most tiles are Atlantic, Red Sea or Sahara desert, which means they are useless. If we add to 2 extra rows, we will add 200 new tiles, of which only 4-6 will be useful. I don't think that's worth it.

 

[gilgames]

The problem is to adjust everything accordingly. But i think a new map is ready for 1.6 or is in good shape.

 

[AbsintheRed]

Is it impossible to expand the map a few tiles South? How much work would that require realistically? Due to most of those tiles being either the Atlantic, Red Sea or Sahara desert, it shouldn't be that difficult, right?

One of the main problems is that the map coordinates start from the bottom left corner.
So adding a bottom line would need to revise all existing coordinates, everywhere.
And there are a lot of them, both in python, both in the dll.

Revising the scenario map file with those extra tiles is also a much bigger task than one would think.
Coordinates are also a big problem there, with some other unwanted automatic changes coming in during the edits, for example with plot visibility.

There are quite a few other settings connected to the exact scenario map size as well, which also have to updated carefully. With all related functions.

All in all, it wouldn't be a quick task, even if it was on the top of the map or on the right side.
But the bottom of it is actually the worst of all. Definitely many hours of work.

 

[Force44]

First, a thank you to everyone for congratulating me with winning the guessing the upcoming four civilizations game. That was a nice surprise.

Now back on topic. I like especially the names Swarbs gave to the UHV goals.
I am convinced they will suffice but the tasks the player have to complete for them are a bit bland to my taste.

Arabs
Spawn date 632AD as currently
UU - Ghazi
UB - Bazaar (Market) - Provides +1 and +1 from desert and semidesert tiles
UP - The Power of Faith - If your State Religion is a major religion it spreads to each newly acquired city, and you incur no stability penalties from foreign religions in your cities

Historical Victory goals
- The Sword of Islam: Control the Levant, Egypt, Cilicia, Ifriqiya, Crete and Sicily by 969AD

This is a bit too modest to my taste. In 750 AD the Arabs (during the Umayyad Caliphate) were able to project their power all the way to Tours. Only then was their advance halted by Mister Carl Hammer.

On the RFCE-map that is only two squares away from Paris. The Arabs failed to achieve victory, but for completing this first part of the UHV the player doesn't even have to attempt it. That feels a bit lackluster.

Maybe something like achieve n victories in combat in the provinces x, y and z would better represent their historical projection of power. (capturing a ciy could count for multiple victories)

- The Golden Age of Islam: Be the leader in tech in 1260AD

This looks very feasable. If the UHV were the last part of the civ to be implemented I would consider this an excellent placeholder.

Personally I would like to give it a little twist.

In stead of being tech leader in 1260 AD I would suggest discover m techs first
or discover more techs first than your closest two rivals combined (France and Byzantium will have a head start on you)

The viking counter is fun (imho) and I assume a tech counter will also provide a certain amount of satisfaction.

On that note. Arabia could receive a prestige counter (which goes up when (ao) building wonders, when a new tech is acquired first, when borders expand through culture and when great people points are acquired) tied to an UHV-condition.

- Defender of the Faith: Control the Levant, Egypt, Cilicia and Ifriqiya by 1290AD (assuming Hafsid Tunisia spawns in 1229AD)

Personally I care for this one the least. I like spread islam to a certain percent more. It had the strategical implication of trying to get islam to the threshold asap or when all other UHV's were completed. It gave two very different games.

Having said that, I'd like to spice this one up by for completing the UHV you not only have to conquer a certain amount of territories by a certain date, but also occupy them for a certain amount of time.

Eg. Contol the levant between 750 and 1200 AD and control Egypt between 800 and 900 AD and controllCilicia between 850 and 1000 AD. (the exact dates are probably nonsensical) It could (ao) force the player to defend against a spawn for a couple of turns.

Notes: Start with Farriers to enable Ghazis from spawn and support rapid conquest

That is probably required to achieve the First UHV you outlined. It is problably a lot of fun to start with a big army to carve yourself a little empire at the start of the game.

I actually liked the nerf in the latest SVN updates where Arabia received less horsearchers. No more inciting barbarians to fight the Byzantines in a concerted effort. (pillage towns for early money and additional military pressure against Byzantium)

And this Buff will undo that nerf.

Egypt
Spawn data 969AD
UU - Zanji spearman (Guisarmer) Same as the mercenary unit. 2 to facilitate rapid conquest and defend against Mongols
UB - Lusterware forge (Blacksmith) +10%, +5% with gold, silver and copper, can turn 1 citizen into artist
UP - The Power of the Nile - Receive health benefits from flood plains instead of health penalties

The province of Egypt really is not that small. It can support 4 cities that have no overlap in BFC at all.
And Egypt can also always expand west. The Arabian territory looks more like the problem to me.

At the start of the game Egyptian culture is already 6000 years old and the people in Egypt identified very strongly with their heritage. If I recall correctly they lynched an Arabian Muslim for vandalizing the Sfinx.

I suggest doing something with that culture.
Maybe have two of their starting cities start with legendary culture so that they need only a third to achieve a Cultural victory. (that could be their third UHV)

They also exported their ancient heritage. So maybe an option to remove a certain amount of culture in exchange for commerce or production every couple of turns (modified by a small random factor would be icing on the cake) a bit similar to the now defunct whipping.
(a bit of elaboration under the spoiler)

Spoiler :

The ancient culture could be represented by a certain foreign culture that doesn't give instability to Egypt. The amount and frequency this culture can be transformed into commerce or production could be made reliant on the amount of culture the player accumulated him or herself.

With sufficient accumulated culture the player could even be enabled to draft a great person from their ancient culture pools (if they are not depleted by then)

Historical Victory goals
- The Fatamid Caliphate: Control Ifriqiya, Sicily, Egypt and the Levant by 1050AD
- Jewel of the Nile: Make Cairo the largest and most cultured city in 1250AD

Personally I liked the idea of getting rid of crusaders a little better. Gameplaywise I like the idea that the (short) time Egypt and Arabia coexist together they form a bigger obstacle to the Christian civs than separate. Liberate s cities and destroy t crusaders in the provinces u and v between w and x looks like a fun task to me. Not every UHV-condition has to be very hard.

In that light the Jewel of the Nile is also a slightly less desirable goal as it puts Egypt at odds with the Arabian UHV-condition of being first in science. (you need need big cities with lots of science boosting (and thereby also culture boosting) buildings for that)

An UHV-condition involving liberating cities would however require some ingenious rule that prevents the player from simply declaring war, capturing and then returning the city later.

- True heirs of the Prophet: Destroy or vassalise the Ottomans, Tunisia and Morocco by 1500AD

Is 1500 based on a certain event or development in history? Else, why not just skip the date requirement. It feels like something to make everything harder, not different. For a high score isn't it desirable to complete the UHV asap anyway?

In stead of destroying or vassalizing the Ottomans Tunesia and Morocco, why not outcultere them in their own lands? Culturebomb them untill you have more culture in their core than they accumulated themselves. Isn't that something in the scope of a True hare of the prophet?

Note: Add a wonder, proposed Cairo Citadel, to give +2 from floodplains to make UHV2 possible.

A wonder just to make an UHV possible. That seems like a bit dodgy UHV to me. Not very much tied to the civilization. If another civilization would build that wonder, would they be able to perform the same task as the civiliztion that has an UHV-condition tied to that task?

@ Swarbs
I feel a bit sorry for saying stuff that is very easy to interpret as critique.
(basically I say I like your idea and then disagree with a lot of what you posted)
It is not meant as something you did wrong or should do better.
The things you wrote got me thinking and inspired me to come up with the ideas posted in the post above.

regards, Force44

 

[The Turk]

But the bottom of it is actually the worst of all. Definitely many hours of work.

If the work is really that much, can we improve Egypt a bit, in terms of production/food? I recommended the inclusion of a camel resource, can we do that? I mean you can just take the asset from SOI. Plus an Indian Ocean access as others have said now, would also be very nice to have. Would require controlling the city (area) of Suez (not historic, but allows for competition).

 

[Swarbs]

@ Swarbs
I feel a bit sorry for saying stuff that is very easy to interpret as critique.
(basically I say I like your idea and then disagree with a lot of what you posted)
It is not meant as something you did wrong or should do better.
The things you wrote got me thinking and inspired me to come up with the ideas posted in the post above.

regards, Force44

No worries at all - constructive critique is always welcome. We all want to make the mod better, so critique of my proposals is a good thing if it makes other people think.

This is a bit too modest to my taste. In 750 AD the Arabs (during the Umayyad Caliphate) were able to project their power all the way to Tours. Only then was their advance halted by Mister Carl Hammer.

On the RFCE-map that is only two squares away from Paris. The Arabs failed to achieve victory, but for completing this first part of the UHV the player doesn't even have to attempt it. That feels a bit lackluster.

Maybe something like achieve n victories in combat in the provinces x, y and z would better represent their historical projection of power. (capturing a ciy could count for multiple victories)

This is true, but we are very limited by the time scale of the mod. After all, 632AD to 750AD is fewer than 30 turns in RFCE, so we can't represent the Umayyad conquests in any sort of valid gameplay manner. Other compromises have been made in a similar vein for this mod, like not representing Justinian's Empire, the English goal being by 1453 rather than by 1172 as IRL, Kiev having its territory goal for 1288 rather than the 1100s.

My proposed UHV is based on the control of the full extent of the Abbasid Caliphate, which I believe we can represent accurately given the timescales and need for good gameplay. I'm not sure what your counter proposal is - would the Arabs have to achieve victories in Spanish and French provinces to meet the condition as IRL? If so wouldn't that just encourage sending a stack to those territories rather than actually capturing cities?

In stead of being tech leader in 1260 AD I would suggest discover m techs first
or discover more techs first than your closest two rivals combined (France and Byzantium will have a head start on you)

Either sounds good, although not sure how you implement it - do you count the techs France and Byzantium already have on spawn? Or not, in which case do you still get points for discovering techs they have already discovered, or started with in the case of Byzantium. Also sounds very difficult to track and achieve, given you won't have reliable contact with France. You could just be casting around in the dark trying to guess what techs they have already researched, which would be quite frustrating.

The province of Egypt really is not that small. It can support 4 cities that have no overlap in BFC at all.

Which four? Alexandria, Domyat and Cairo all have some overlap on the flood plains, and obviously Cairo has only half a BFC.

Is 1500 based on a certain event or development in history? Else, why not just skip the date requirement. It feels like something to make everything harder, not different. For a high score isn't it desirable to complete the UHV asap anyway?

1517, the date the Ottomans conquered Egypt and defeated the Mamluks. Either way, Absinthe is leaning more towards domination of other Islamic nations being the final Arab UHV, so this probably won't apply to Egypt.

A wonder just to make an UHV possible. That seems like a bit dodgy UHV to me. Not very much tied to the civilization. If another civilization would build that wonder, would they be able to perform the same task as the civiliztion that has an UHV-condition tied to that task?

It also won't just be for the UHV any more, as Absinthe prefers a province level one rather than a city level one. Also it is of very little use to another civ, as there are no flood plains anywhere other than a couple in Kuban province.

In general, it's more a wonder to allow Cairo to be the huge, cultural and scientific city it was at the time, whilst only having half a BFC. That way the capital city of Egypt isn't stuck at half the size of all the other capital cities.

 

[Force44]

This also is the location I suspect on having the highest potential production without a foodshortage in green provinces for Arabia.

~

The way I envision a counter with the amount of technologies you discovered first is at the location of the viking points consisting of three lines.
One with the amount of technologies you discovered first.
And two with the amount of each respective rival.

Whenever a technology is discovered first another mark gets added to the talley (the 3 highest tallies are shown when the player is in rank 1,2 or 3 else the two highest tallies get shown + the tally of the player. If the player has not yet met the more advanced rival its tally is shown without a name.)

~

If 30 turns is all that is allowed to emulate history I think a Unique Ability is a good candidate to make it possible (eg when you capture a city in a province you are allowed to paradrop units from that province to an adjacent province during the turns of civil unrest that follow after capture.)

 

[El Bogus]

This also is the location I suspect on having the highest potential production without a foodshortage in green provinces for Arabia.

You're right. This city can reach up to 70 if I'm not wrong. Will post tomorrow and will likely change the premise of my thread a little.
Edit: I also imagine it to be the perfect spot for The Gardens of Al Andalus because it gets +6 through flood plains and marshland tiles. (If you want to found that city and not three others instead is another question.)

 

[The Turk]

Is that the Knights Hospitaller in Abbasid Sur (Tyre)? Latin Christian military orders need to vanish when a non-Catholic takes a city.

Also Damietta should be made a city as well, perhaps adding a seafood resource would help. I'd recommend taking some resources from SOI and distributing it in Egypt/MENA region.

 

[AbsintheRed]

Is that the Knights Hospitaller in Abbasid Sur (Tyre)? Latin Christian military orders need to vanish when a non-Catholic takes a city.

They do disappear.
Arabia is Catholic in that game though.

Also Damietta should be made a city as well, perhaps adding a seafood resource would help. I'd recommend taking some resources from SOI and distributing it in Egypt/MENA region.

Damietta has a seafood resource in it's BFC.

 

[The Turk]

They do disappear.
Arabia is Catholic in that game though.


Damietta has a seafood resource in it's BFC.

Well that shouldn't happen. Is there a way to force states into certain religions? Prevent conversion in other words for the AI?

Ah, I didn't see the seafood, but what I meant is that Alexandria, Damietta and Cairo should be made all productive and logical choices for cities. And Suez IMO, but al-Aqaba is okay as well. Suez was the main naval arsenal for the Red Sea however.

 

[DC123456789]

He's playing as Arabia.

 

[AbsintheRed]

Well that shouldn't happen. Is there a way to force states into certain religions? Prevent conversion in other words for the AI?

The AI won't really convert away as Arabia, since they have the holy city.
But in the latest iterations Cordoba and Morocco also tends to stay Islam in most games, I'm quite statisfied how the recent religion updates turned up.
Anyway, that's not the AI there, Force44 plays as Arabia.

Ah, I didn't see the seafood, but what I meant is that Alexandria, Damietta and Cairo should be made all productive and logical choices for cities. And Suez IMO, but al-Aqaba is okay as well. Suez was the main naval arsenal for the Red Sea however.

Surely Egypt will be revised for the new civs/setup.

 

[The Turk]

Surely Egypt will be revised for the new civs/setup.

Well I hope you add camels and dates, those would be my two choices for new resources. Camels especially.

 

[Swarbs]

Well I hope you add camels and dates, those would be my two choices for new resources. Camels especially.

The only problem with adding more resources, particularly around Cairo, is that every resource added detracts from the city's commerce potential. Assuming dates and camels will give and you add them on the floodplains, that reduces the ability of Cairo to turn those tiles into 5 towns, thus reducing the ability of Cairo to act as a strong source of .

That said, I suppose adding food resources to the Nile will mean we don't necessarily need a wonder which adds from floodplains, and the proposed Cairo Citadel (or any other equivalent wonder) could add from floodplains instead.

 

[Swarbs]

View attachment 470086

Still a bit of overlap between Cairo and Alexandria. You can minimise overlap by building Clymsa on the marble, but that city to the east of the province has massive overlap with Jerusalem and would be food-capped at size 12, in turn capping Jerusalem at size 7.

So if the goal is population and commerce then Cairo, Alexandria and Damietta are the only really viable cities along with Sidi Barrani to the west. Not bad, but I think Cairo will still need some food support, either through a wonder or new resources.

The way I envision a counter with the amount of technologies you discovered first is at the location of the viking points consisting of three lines.
One with the amount of technologies you discovered first.
And two with the amount of each respective rival.

Whenever a technology is discovered first another mark gets added to the talley (the 3 highest tallies are shown when the player is in rank 1,2 or 3 else the two highest tallies get shown + the tally of the player. If the player has not yet met the more advanced rival its tally is shown without a name.)

This doesn't address the concerns about how technologies that civs spawn with are treated, and how the player actually tracks what technologies haven't been discovered yet. To me it just feels too arbitrary and too easy to frustrate the player by going wrong because you have no idea which techs you can choose to ensure you discover them first.

If 30 turns is all that is allowed to emulate history I think a Unique Ability is a good candidate to make it possible (eg when you capture a city in a province you are allowed to paradrop units from that province to an adjacent province during the turns of civil unrest that follow after capture.)

Still not going to be possible - if you want to reach Iberia / Tours to mark the limits of Umayyad expansion around 750AD then we are talking about capturing around 20 provinces. So the player would essentially have to be given new units almost every turn for every province, meaning winning the UHV would just be a case of telling the new units to attack.

Besides which, the Muslim conquests of Iberia are already reflected by Cordoba, which spawns in 711, so trying to simulate Arab intervention in Europe would overlap with them.

 

[The Turk]

Only dates would need to be close to the nile, Camels as I have written elsewhere belong in the Arabian/Transjordan desert, the Syrian desert, and parts of North Africa. They are not for the Nile. Just notice where camels are in SoI, there are no camels in Egypt actually.

 

[The Turk]

For UHV purposes let us stick to areas that the Umayyads actually sent armies to, rather than trying to represent every ad-hoc adventurer across the map. This would include North Africa (NOT Morocco), Egypt, Cilicia and Eastern Anatolia (Malatya), Cyprus. If that is too easy, I'd recommend having the requirement that they all have Islam present, if we decide to change the UP as I already suggested (+ stability from non-state religions).

 

[cmakk1012]

Not totally serious suggestion:

If you really want to attempt to simulate accurate Arab conquests give them a stupidly OP Cavalry UU that can actually conquer the historical territories in time. Make it something like 8 or 9 strength, 9 move, and give it the Blitz promotion. That way the Arab army can literally sweep across the map, and the UHV becomes a precise game of conquest like the French UHV. Of course, after the conquests this idea falls apart....maybe a limited number of this mega UU?

 

[The Turk]

Not totally serious suggestion:

If you really want to attempt to simulate accurate Arab conquests give them a stupidly OP Cavalry UU that can actually conquer the historical territories in time. Make it something like 8 or 9 strength, 9 move, and give it the Blitz promotion. That way the Arab army can literally sweep across the map, and the UHV becomes a precise game of conquest like the French UHV. Of course, after the conquests this idea falls apart....maybe a limited number of this mega UU?

We can have a civil war event, which breaks up the Arab Empire. Or just show it through barb spawns and other civilization spawns.