Egypt/Babylonia Space Victory Suggestions?

Matara

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Nov 27, 2021
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I tried a space race as Egypt and Babylonia, failed due to following problems:
1.Too small core. Expansion is very limited.
2. Has to deal with tons of conquerors.
3. Bad modifiers as an ancient civ. Especially inflation rate is terrible.
Do you have any strategy for an early civ space race?
 
It is honestly not too hard at all to win a Chinese Science Victory. Never played much as Egypt or Babylon though, so I can't help you out with that
 
It is quite doable as Babylonia, Egypt seems very difficult indeed.

Babylon's tech modifier is 125 and due to its unique power you can start snowballing much faster. Egypt's tech modifier is 145, the worst in the game next to India.

Babylon only has one core city (as opposed to 4-5 you can squeeze into the Egyptian core) but it's one hell of a city and your core population will count as double since you have only one city. Babylon also has the potential to be a triple holy city (Judaism, Orthodoxy, Islam), so with three shrines, Dome of the Rock and then things like Stock Exchange and National Bank and a couple joined prophets and merchants you can run 100% science basically the entire game even with inflation and a reasonably sized empire. You can also build a ridiculous amount of wonders in Babylon (you can only have 7 or 9 at the end game but that only counts the ones that are not obsolete. With the obsolete ones you can easily get up to 20 and they all provide GP points even after obsolete). So even with poor GP growth modifiers you can crank out great people at a very respectable rate. Also you can imagine how with all that culture wonders like Metropolitan will give a very nice amount of commerce. Also building Ironworks, National College and things like Hermitage, Babilu will also have godlike production and science.

Obviously you have to build tons of military units to deal with all the conqueror events so in my run I built the Flavian Ampitheatre right away. I settled two great generals in Babilu and built mostly units and wonders until after Iran was dealt with. But it's doable. You will lose a city here or there (Arabia and Iran will flip cities that you likely own when they spawn) but it's not hard to get them back. Just make sure that the Seljuks don't take any cities in Mesopotamia and in Turkey so that the Ottomans don't spawn.

To offset some of the overexpansion you may suffer in the later eras you can run compatible civics (I'd go for Democracy, Constitution, Egalitarianism, Central Planning or Regulated Trade, Secularism, and Multilateralism). But with a super Babilu and jails and courthouses everywhere and keeping your non-historical cities reasonably low in population, you can easily have an empire stretching across Egypt, Turkey, Middle East, Arabia, Iran and Transoxiana which should be enough to allow for a science victory.

Vassalizing nations that have similar tech modifiers and directing their research for tech trading purposes is also great. Byzantium and Mughals are perfect for that. But you'll have to gift them a bunch of techs because by the time they show up you will likely be much more advanced than they are. I was already close to the industrial era when the Mughals spawned for example.

The final piece of the puzzle, if needed, is to conquer the east coast of North America (New Orleans, Charleston, Washington, New York) and vassalizing the United States. They are your biggest competitor in the tech race and limiting them to Chicago plus the western half of North America and then directing their research will prevent them from beating you to it. In an unlikely case that Russia does well (it usually does poorly in my 3000BC and 600AD games), you can try signing some defensive pacts and getting everyone you possibly can to declare war on them. And use espionage to sabotage their production, to send them into anarchy through civic switches etc.

I did it playing on Regent and Epic speed.
 
It is quite doable as Babylonia, Egypt seems very difficult indeed.

Babylon's tech modifier is 125 and due to its unique power you can start snowballing much faster. Egypt's tech modifier is 145, the worst in the game next to India.

Babylon only has one core city (as opposed to 4-5 you can squeeze into the Egyptian core) but it's one hell of a city and your core population will count as double since you have only one city. Babylon also has the potential to be a triple holy city (Judaism, Orthodoxy, Islam), so with three shrines, Dome of the Rock and then things like Stock Exchange and National Bank and a couple joined prophets and merchants you can run 100% science basically the entire game even with inflation and a reasonably sized empire. You can also build a ridiculous amount of wonders in Babylon (you can only have 7 or 9 at the end game but that only counts the ones that are not obsolete. With the obsolete ones you can easily get up to 20 and they all provide GP points even after obsolete). So even with poor GP growth modifiers you can crank out great people at a very respectable rate. Also you can imagine how with all that culture wonders like Metropolitan will give a very nice amount of commerce. Also building Ironworks, National College and things like Hermitage, Babilu will also have godlike production and science.

Obviously you have to build tons of military units to deal with all the conqueror events so in my run I built the Flavian Ampitheatre right away. I settled two great generals in Babilu and built mostly units and wonders until after Iran was dealt with. But it's doable. You will lose a city here or there (Arabia and Iran will flip cities that you likely own when they spawn) but it's not hard to get them back. Just make sure that the Seljuks don't take any cities in Mesopotamia and in Turkey so that the Ottomans don't spawn.

To offset some of the overexpansion you may suffer in the later eras you can run compatible civics (I'd go for Democracy, Constitution, Egalitarianism, Central Planning or Regulated Trade, Secularism, and Multilateralism). But with a super Babilu and jails and courthouses everywhere and keeping your non-historical cities reasonably low in population, you can easily have an empire stretching across Egypt, Turkey, Middle East, Arabia, Iran and Transoxiana which should be enough to allow for a science victory.

Vassalizing nations that have similar tech modifiers and directing their research for tech trading purposes is also great. Byzantium and Mughals are perfect for that. But you'll have to gift them a bunch of techs because by the time they show up you will likely be much more advanced than they are. I was already close to the industrial era when the Mughals spawned for example.

The final piece of the puzzle, if needed, is to conquer the east coast of North America (New Orleans, Charleston, Washington, New York) and vassalizing the United States. They are your biggest competitor in the tech race and limiting them to Chicago plus the western half of North America and then directing their research will prevent them from beating you to it. In an unlikely case that Russia does well (it usually does poorly in my 3000BC and 600AD games), you can try signing some defensive pacts and getting everyone you possibly can to declare war on them. And use espionage to sabotage their production, to send them into anarchy through civic switches etc.

I did it playing on Regent and Epic speed.
Thanks for a detailed guide. But when do you start your early expansion? With Babylon only, I fell behind in classical era. With more cities, I had to meet more Greek and Roman conquerors, where I didn't have any early strong units, like War Chariot or Savaran, to push them back. It seems only possible for a skirmisher-kamikaze-attack.
 
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I didn't have any other cities until I researched Theology to ensure that Babilu was the triple holy city. Then I conquered the independent city of Artashat in the north that spawns there. After that Persia, then Sur, Yerushalayim and Ankyra from Byzantium. When Arabia spawns I took Makkah as well. That was it until Iran was dealt with. Then I took Egypt and Transoxiana as well. Most of the science comes from Babilu anyway until way later into the game so a one city empire worked really well for me until basically the Medieval Era. I was already miles ahead of everyone when Greece and Rome collapsed.
As for the military, Skirmishers are indeed the way to go. You can build Swordsmen too once Artashat is online. But with two great generals and Flavian Ampitheatre, Skirmishers and Catapults will wipe out everything before Arabia if you play your cards well.

One trick I didn't think of was conquering a Buddhist city in India and spreading Buddhism to Babilu to engineer rush Emerald Buddha Temple. You can try that if you manage it :)
 
I didn't have any other cities until I researched Theology to ensure that Babilu was the triple holy city. Then I conquered the independent city of Artashat in the north that spawns there. After that Persia, then Sur, Yerushalayim and Ankyra from Byzantium. When Arabia spawns I took Makkah as well. That was it until Iran was dealt with. Then I took Egypt and Transoxiana as well. Most of the science comes from Babilu anyway until way later into the game so a one city empire worked really well for me until basically the Medieval Era. I was already miles ahead of everyone when Greece and Rome collapsed.
As for the military, Skirmishers are indeed the way to go. You can build Swordsmen too once Artashat is online. But with two great generals and Flavian Ampitheatre, Skirmishers and Catapults will wipe out everything before Arabia if you play your cards well.

One trick I didn't think of was conquering a Buddhist city in India and spreading Buddhism to Babilu to engineer rush Emerald Buddha Temple. You can try that if you manage it :)
It's difficult for me to be tech-lead in Classical Era with Babilu alone. How did you do that? By hiring scientists, working cottages early and building the Great Library?
 
I don't want to tell you the whole things because figuring out on your own is half the fun, at least for me. But I'll give you some tips:

- I beelined Writing and built an Edubba right away and hired one scientist (I wouldn't run two though, you want growth). Because the only way I ever found to get Judaism before Yerushalayim involved skipping all the good wonder techs I didn't build any wonders until quite later. That meant I had a high chance to get a great scientist as my first great person to build an Academy
- Because I built the Oracle later and because I was already in the Classical era then, I could use it to bulb some more advanced techs
- You can get some tech trades from Phoenicia and Greece
- I cottaged everything as soon as possible by stealing 2 additional workers from Shushan
- Key things further down the road to keep science high - the Parthenon, Great Library, La Mezquita, University of Sankore, Monasticism, Regulated Trade etc.
- Additional considerations: Great Engineer builds Manufactory, Great Artist a Museum, Great Prophets build holy shrines. I settled everything else. You can get a Great Merchant for Stock Exchange for free as you are almost certainly the first to Economics. Same with Scientific Method and Great Scientist, Representation and Great Statesman etc. Settling lots and lots of great people really pays off in the long run with all the mega modifiers you are running from all the wonders and buildings and Egalitarianism and Central Planning.
 
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in my games Egypt was more favorable, than Babilon. Alexandria in late game could have awesome population


(But I didn't win this game, maybe i'm wrong)
Civ4ScreenShot0034.JPG
 
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That's impressive indeed. My logic was based off of a few assumptions such as Babilu being a production and science powerhouse due to having 18 workable tiles, a noticeably better tech modifier and the triple holy city thingy. But you can score the same three shrines as Egypt too, they just won't all be in the same city.
Maybe I'll try Egypt too soon, see if I can make it work.
 
The Babylonian strategy seems work now. It's 600AD when I have conquered Mideast except Egypt. Technology have reached the last column of Medieval era. Now it's time to fight the huge stack of Arabian, Seljuk and Mongol conquerors.
 
In all games a great statesman (might need some seed save/load) helps transition from republic/merchant/slavery/citizenship/deification > Religion with all the medieval things (monarchy/Vassalage/regulated trade/manorialism/tributaries needed, to get a big stability boost, more stability cheaper techs. Vass+trib is +5 Vassal+manorialism/Vassal+monarchy is another +5, reg trade+man is a bonus and monarchy with clergy/monasticism is an extra.

I'd move Babvlon to the south east coast when building the city, so another city in the core up north. If you go wild you can even add maybe 3 bottom right (Uruk) Top right a city and mid left 1, to maximize the core bonus, but you will overlap 2 cities.

Uruk on the marble this you might prevent Sush from spawning or you take it over culturally, cause the neutral city will spawn inside the culture tile of you? Does waste the marble for production but you got a coast access and 2 forests on the right.

Another option is first city to be Ninua in the top right core (takes 1 turn), then you access sheep, deer and stone after city culture expands 1 time. Also tons of hills for mines (sheep, deer, some flood plains and not-irrigated wheat on the right 4f/1h) and then maybe Borsippa south of Babylon, for the marble and left over flood plains, or Uruk on the marble if you want coast, then you might even add Rubra on either spot (in view of Uruk), for dye access but Jerusalem will pop up, though unsure if it does it not starts with a massive Babylon culture under it then.

I think Ninua is the best Capitol for hammers and quick food, though you start a few turns with little hammers (not stone/marble next to you), though you will be on a hill and next to a lake.
 
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Is it worth it in this case to make your capital weaker in exchange for higher core population by having 3 core cities?
 
A single Babilu capital is an insane powerhouse of hammer and commerce. It also counts as double core population since you have only one core city. I reached 16 population in current game. So a multiple-city-strategy should guarantee at least 30+ core population.
 
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2 cities is better as you move to Ninua, you get a big mining and food output of farm, deer, sheep and you got a lake for a harbor in the top right core.

If you found Babylon you got a massive city sure cause of floodplains but overall, 1 pop is 1 point. 2 cities farther apart spread more squares outside the core that add to the total, hence it is more. Ninua can take 2/3 of squares outside the core area, so it looks better but it takes a few turns more to reach potential, not sure anymore if hills with plain when settled on give 2 hammers, if it is also a nice bonus. Also it is far better defendable against invaders, a hill with archers.

3 is tricky cause of Jerusalem and Tyrus, in the west.
 
A single Babilu capital is an insane powerhouse of hammer and commerce. It also counts as double core population since you have only one core city. I reached 16 population in current game. So a multiple-city-strategy should guarantee at least 30+ core population.

16 pop in Babylon is peanuts compared to its overall potential. Especially when you're like me and you go for Dujiangyan. Just settle right on the rice near Mumbai.
 
I'm skeptical of the 2 city approach vs just 1 city for a few reasons, but I might try soon with 2 to see what results I get. I don't think core population should be a consideration for 2 vs 1 city, as said you get doubled core population with one city and it's only in the later parts of the game where you could possibly have overextension issues. By that time the thing more constraining expansion is going to be your garbage economic modifiers vs core pop IME... I went with Babylon only until after the Roman conquerors, then settled 1 SW of the Deer in the Caucasus for access to Iron. Some thoughts:

1. I'm skeptical of trying to found Judaism instead of letting Jerusalem have it. Typically the shrine income won't be very large, and the only conceivably useful wonder it unlocks is Dome of the Rock, which you almost certainly would rather build in Jerusalem given the shortage of wonder slots for Babylon. Plus it requires a bit of going out of the way instead of focusing on other parts of your gameplan.

2. AIs would declare war on me even though I had like 150% of their military power. This happened regularly. Not sure what was going on.

also:
16 pop in Babylon is peanuts compared to its overall potential. Especially when you're like me and you go for Dujiangyan. Just settle right on the rice near Mumbai.

How are you hooking up the Indian rice with Babylon? Are you settling a coastal city in Mesopotamia? Don't see how else one could get Babylon access to the rice.

Also, did you have problems with happiness with all that food? Even without Duijiangyan (and unironically selecting Monarchy over Despotism, first time for everything I suppose!) I felt pretty constrained by happiness until about the medieval era, and even then occasionally afterwards too.
 
- In my experience for Babylon there is no combination of cities that will outperform Babilu as your only core city. With careful population management in the periphery and maximizing the population in Babilu overextension should never really be a problem. And if for some reason at the end of the game it starts being an issue (even though Babilu could easily run 35 pop giving you an obscene core population score) because you went on an expansion rampage, you can just run the most beneficial civic combo in terms of stability bonuses - Macroeconomics, Revolutionism, Totalitarianism, Central Planning, Secularism and Nationhood. Not to mention that will massively cut down your expenses (No maintenance for number of cities from Macroeconomics, no upkeep for Totalitarianism etc.) and since all expenses are multiplied by inflation, it makes sense to keep your expenses low. Last but not least, you need lots of production to build all the space ship parts. If you stack everything in Babilu - all the joined great people, Manufactory, Ironworks, 2 free engineers from Crystal Palace, 14 engineers with Skytree and Egalitarianism and Central Planning etc. Babilu will have such ridiculous production that it can possibly build the entire spaceship all by itself in time.

- Judaism is indeed a niche strategy and I do not find it necessary at all to get the win. But there are a few upsides. 1) You can raze Yerushalayim and place a city in the historical area a bit south and west that can capture more tiles. That way you can make a pretty nice city that will not be a big drain on stability. You could also raze Sur and settle a city north of it on the wines for the same reason for example. 2) Not building wonders for a while and running a single scientist means you are much more likely to a get a great scientist as your first great person to build an academy. I personally would prefer a scientist first because of the massive research boost an academy gives you. 3) There were never any wonders I felt I needed the slots for (except maybe Mount Athos but that obsoletes really early since I beelined Academy) so the Dome of the Rock was not a hindrance in any way for me. 4) Better economy due to stacking everything in Babilu which multiplies with things like Stock Exchange and National Bank. 5) Judaism randomly spreads to many European, Middle Eastern and even North American cities so the shrine income is quite decent in the late game.
 
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As for religion......Well, I failed to found any religion in Babilu. Judaism and Orthodox auto-founded in Jerusalem. Islam founded in one Persian city (I beelined and converted Islam for Sankore and Dome). Is it worth to delay expansion for holy cities in Babilu?

16 pop in Babylon is peanuts compared to its overall potential. Especially when you're like me and you go for Dujiangyan. Just settle right on the rice near Mumbai.
That's why I'm confused at Dujiangyan not limited for Confucian/Taoism, as other Chinese wonders did.
 
As for religion......Well, I failed to found any religion in Babilu. Judaism and Orthodox auto-founded in Jerusalem. Islam founded in one Persian city (I beelined and converted Islam for Sankore and Dome). Is it worth to delay expansion for holy cities in Babilu?


That's why I'm confused at Dujiangyan not limited for Confucian/Taoism, as other Chinese wonders did.
it’s because the Dujiiangyan is older than either Confucianism or Taoism
 
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