Egypt / Ramesses

[Enrico Swagolo]

I was just saying that the yields you're seeing is a product of the UB and the UA working together. Just like the Impi isn't considered overpowered despite pretty much trashing everything in the same era with the UB and the UA backing it.

I think even just looking at it as the massive pile of yields it is, the building isn't fun and isn't especially good.

Isn't especially good? 7Culture 5Science 2Tourism isn't good in the Classical era? In that case there's no good UBs.

Jelling will only get 7C5P per turn if you kill one unit per turn, and - on average - even I get less. AI simply won't have enough units to provide me with that.

I'm still not seeing this smurf-thing you're talking about so I'll just ignore this part. In my games at least one AI is at war with another AI at all times. Didn't have a single civ actually starting Authority in my current game and people were still at war with each-other at all times, Harold is no exception to that.

I think it depends a bit on the map size. I have a theory. You play on Standard, yes?

That means instead of all civs getting 10 cities at least on average in the current patch, in your case there'll be, let's say 6-7. In my games, they have to spend so much production and time on settlers (some of them - Traditionists too - can make 15 cities before medieval), they can't spend it on anything else, buildings and army included. Since the AI REALLY wants to expand in the current version, I suppose in your case, with no possible spots to settle, they'd be fighting tooth and nails over everything. On Huge I think it'd be a literal hugbox, but I hate Huge maps so much I won't try it

It certainly have some synergy with Piety (and Isabella pretty much always goes Piety anyways) but I would hardly call it mandatory. Founding a religion, spreading it and picking tithe however could be considered mandatory and Isabella seems to have a hard time performing the first part of that. That being said it's still a free castle that buffs pressure and provides gold on city-growth even if she completely fails to faith .

Isabella has a hard time with everything. But, for the first time in ALL the games I've ever played, she founded a religion in the current version. She, having taken Tradition, was alone with me, Venice, on a continent-island, so she has done nothing but settle cities. She settled so much her UA finally got her a religion! And that's despite taking a pantheon that didn't fit the continent we were on at all!

Too bad her missionary spam turned out too annoying so I had to declare war. She obviously had no infrastructure, no soldiers, so you know how it turned out.

Anyway, current version might not be very fun to play with the insane AI expansion, but... "When I played Vox Populi, AI Isabella founded a religion once!" is the sort of thing one would tell his grandchildren. They'd say it's just fairytales, that Bismarck - who gets no Faith anywhere - can found way before her while a knowing glimmer would appear in my eyes.

Spoiler :

I don't know how but Bismarck founds a religion in almost every game he appears. Usually as first. Once he did so before Celts and Maya with no religious wonder without Tradition. I don't know how he does it.

This is going pretty off topic, but yeah never understood this change at all. Automated workers keeps building roads that are 6 gpt losses, which means the AI workers will build those as well.

Agreed. I never make automated workers for this reason, if it's not a Lighthouse connection it's usually a waste of time if I have good happiness.

 

[Funak]

Isn't especially good? 7Culture 5Science 2Tourism isn't good in the Classical era? In that case there's no good UBs.

Jelling will only get 7C5P per turn if you kill one unit per turn, and - on average - even I get less. AI simply won't have enough units to provide me with that.

Jelling continues growing with era, that's the chief difference, the other difference is that +15% GPP is a good bonus throughout the game. The Burial tomb might be good when you build it, but it stops being relevant way too early, the yields is all that building has and they just don't hold up to the real bonuses most UBs have. I mean even the Skola, as meh as it is gives you an extra scientist slot.

 

[Aldebaran1997]

Isn't especially good? 7Culture 5Science 2Tourism isn't good in the Classical era? In that case there's no good UBs.

Jelling will only get 7C5P per turn if you kill one unit per turn, and - on average - even I get less. AI simply won't have enough units to provide me with that.

Funak is right. You have to think that Burial Tomb's real yield. Don't include yields from UA.(Because it is synergizing concept of each civ's unique feature.)

 

[Stalker0]

Funak is right. You have to think that Burial Tomb's real yield. Don't include yields from UA.(Because it is synergizing concept of each civ's unique feature.)

I disagree, you absolutely have to look at the total package. Ultimately what does Egypt provide in yields (including all factors), and how does that stack compared to what other civs can do. That's a fair balance comparison.

 

[Aldebaran1997]

I disagree, you absolutely have to look at the total package. Ultimately what does Egypt provide in yields (including all factors), and how does that stack compared to what other civs can do. That's a fair balance comparison.

From your point of view, many other UBs also can be overestimated. Let's see Seowon, Korean unique university. It provides 20% rate of GP, 3 Great Scientist point, 7 Science, 2 Culture, 2 Faith and 17% instant science boost when city grow.(except normal univ yield.) Yeah, it's later than Burial Tomb, but it's early enough to compare imo.(Seowon can build from beginning of Medieval era)

Is it too op? Someone can think that, but I don't think so. Because their real science yield is only 3(4 from their UA.), and no culture yield(2 from Specialist).

Not only Seowon but also Wat or other UBs too. Some needs nerfs, of course, but many of them make game more interesting, not spoil it.

 

[Gazebo]

I disagree, you absolutely have to look at the total package. Ultimately what does Egypt provide in yields (including all factors), and how does that stack compared to what other civs can do. That's a fair balance comparison.

Yep.

Burial Tomb is strong. However it is also somewhat counter to Egypt's natural tendency towards tall + wonderspam. So you pretty much have to forgo a part of your UA for another part in this regard.

Also, Funak, when you say that something I designed from scratch is dull as rocks, it cuts deep. I for one like the Burial Tomb. Just because it isn't covered in coke and strippers doesn't mean it is boring.

G

 

[Funak]

Also, Funak, when you say that something I designed from scratch is dull as rocks, it cuts deep. I for one like the Burial Tomb. Just because it isn't covered in coke and strippers doesn't mean it is boring.

You completely ignored my 4 suggestions, so I don't really care about your feelings at this point .
Seriously speaking I think pure yields, especially global yields just doesn't make an interesting UB.

 

[Gazebo]

You completely ignored my 4 suggestions, so I don't really care about your feelings at this point .
Seriously speaking I think pure yields, especially global yields just doesn't make an interesting UB.

I can honestly say I did not see any suggestions for changes from you or anyone else. Re-post them?

G

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

How about we make Burial Tomb turn your stationed units into Mummies randomly? Mummy is the same as the unit that was previously there, but gets Bandages promotion that is essentially Medic 1 and Medic 2 put into one, as well as +10% defense bonus. Can't upgrade though because, well, they're undead - they won't suddenly pick up better weapons in the tomb they were buried in after all

 

[Gazebo]

You completely ignored my 4 suggestions, so I don't really care about your feelings at this point .
Seriously speaking I think pure yields, especially global yields just doesn't make an interesting UB.

Also, Funak, let's clear something up real quick: EVERY yield except for food, local culture (for borders) and production is global. If you have a problem with global yields such that they are worthless to you...you might have a core misunderstanding of how Civ 5 works.

G

 

[Stalker0]

From your point of view, many other UBs also can be overestimated.

Every Civ has to be reviewed for balance based on its whole package. The Seowan is certainly a strong UB, but it doesn't make Korea under or overpowered on its own, its just one thing to look at when checking the Civ.

 

[JungleBucks]

How about we make Burial Tomb turn your stationed units into Mummies randomly? Mummy is the same as the unit that was previously there, but gets Bandages promotion that is essentially Medic 1 and Medic 2 put into one, as well as +10% defense bonus. Can't upgrade though because, well, they're undead - they won't suddenly pick up better weapons in the tomb they were buried in after all

Throw in coke and strippers and I say that'd be perfect.

 

[Aldebaran1997]

Every Civ has to be reviewed for balance based on its whole package. The Seowan is certainly a strong UB, but it doesn't make Korea under or overpowered on its own, its just one thing to look at when checking the Civ.

That's exactly what I'm saying, thanks!

 

[Funak]

Also, Funak, let's clear something up real quick: EVERY yield except for food, local culture (for borders) and production is global. If you have a problem with global yields such that they are worthless to you...you might have a core misunderstanding of how Civ 5 works.

I don't think they are worthless exactly, but I don't want to focus on them directly.

Let me just put it like this, if the Burial tomb, instead of producing 1Faith 2 Tourism 7 culture and 5 science (15 total yields) produced 15 hammers, I would see it as being way better. So by that reasoning I value the existing yields on the burial tomb lower than I value local yields.
That being said I don't think I would find even a flat 15 hammer building to be an interesting UB (even if it probably would be crazy overpowered). I don't think all UBs necessarily needs to be civ-defining in the way the Tabya, Polder or Ikanda are, but having something that makes you think about how you're choosing to play the game.
The current Egyptian Civ just doesn't do that for me, you've got a UA that kinda wants you building wonders and a UB that kinda wants you expanding, but those are kinda just things you want to do anyways, and they don't exactly synergize well at all.

Yeah I know that the second part of the UA kinda wants you going aesthetics and rushing archaeology, but that's pretty much how tourism-victory goes anyways.

I do understand that the Burial-tomb was your way of tying together the weird late-gameness of the UA by giving it some earlier game applications besides saving a few hammers on the wonders you build, but in practice, because of the massive yields associated with the artifacts-bonus of the UA, that leaves the UB just looking like a big boring pile of yields. As mentioned earlier in this thread that means the UB is bordering on overpowered by the time it unlocks, and of course there isn't any room for other mechanics on the building because of that, but to me that leaves the building just looking underwhelming. The artifacts give yields that drastically loses value over time and the only thing they have to look forward to is some museum theming-bonus later on.


I can give you an example on how I would have solved the UA problem without involving the UB. You could have it be something along these lines:
+20% production-bonus while building wonders. Extra yields from Landmarks Artifacts and Wonders (maybe scaling with era somehow).

You either have a somewhat lower bonus from wonders and let it work off national wonders (for consistency) or you have a larger bonus that only works for world wonders, either way you have your wonder-synergy leading into Aesthetics and Archaeology.
And you've got the Burial tomb open to do whatever you want with.



I would give you a burial tomb suggestion and some numbers, but I'm way too tired to think right now, sorry.

 

[Gazebo]

I do understand that the Burial-tomb was your way of tying together the weird late-gameness of the UA by giving it some earlier game applications besides saving a few hammers on the wonders you build, but in practice, because of the massive yields associated with the artifacts-bonus of the UA, that leaves the UB just looking like a big boring pile of yields.

Egypt is the only civ that can make its own unique artifacts, and by extension can pretty much ignore great artists for much of the game. Since art is the biggest tourism theme requirement, this is a big boost.

G

 

[Funak]

Egypt is the only civ that can make its own unique artifacts, and by extension can pretty much ignore great artists for much of the game. Since art is the biggest tourism theme requirement, this is a big boost.

I don't agree with you, but then again that hardly matters.

 

[Gazebo]

I don't agree with you, but then again that hardly matters.

That's...an odd thing to say.

G

 

[Funak]

That's...an odd thing to say.

You think it's good design, so it's going to stay, doesn't matter what I think at that point.

 

[Der_Zorn_gottes]

I like the new UA.
Yields are fun.
of course, yields and strippers would be even better, but still.

 

[Gazebo]

You think it's good design, so it's going to stay, doesn't matter what I think at that point.

That's entirely unfair and extremely rude, not to mention wholly at odds with this project. I cannot even begin to count the number of times I've bent to the will of the community on things I've designed. In any case, you are the only one who seems to have a problem with global yields and/or the Burial Tomb, so unless that changes, it stays.

G