That's exactly what I said.
Egypt / Ramesses
- Thread starter Strec
- Start date
That's exactly what I said.
No, no, it really isn't. You specifically said that I would not change it because I designed it. That's not why I'm not changing it. I'm not changing it because you are the only one who has professed dislike for it, and 1 does not equate to a majority.
G
thecraftybee
Warlord
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- Jan 10, 2015
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- 235
I only got to play one game as Egypt when the Burial Tomb gave GA points on kills which I quite liked as the Jelling Stones model of a UB is my favourite kind, alongside the Hanse.
However, I quite like the current iteration. The Sarcophogi add a more flavoursome way of adding yields to the Civ that can be min-maxed more than a regular UB by say transferring them to your School of Philosophy/Alhambra city for 20% more Science/Culture, or to your Holy City if you have the Belief that gives you a bonus to most yields during a GA, or to a Synagogue/Mosque city if its celebrating a WLTKD. That is allows you to get up theming bonuses early is a nice touch too.
Lastly the vanilla BT had a negative associated with it that if the city was captured, the conqueror gained bonus gold. I'm not sure if the VoxPops one still has the same malus, but if not, the potential loss (or gain) of an Artifact harkens back to that weakness in a much more interesting way. I love playing against AI that have UIs because I can capture some of their uniqueness when I conquer them, and the current Eqypt feels similar, even though you can capture anyone's GWs. By the way, if you do capture Sarcophogi, are they normal yield artifacts that Eqypt's UA boost, or are they artifacts with base 5S/5C?
That it ties in with the UA makes me think that this is a well rounded Civ. Ancient Pharaohs vs Modern Indiana Jones is a flavour I quite like.
However, I quite like the current iteration. The Sarcophogi add a more flavoursome way of adding yields to the Civ that can be min-maxed more than a regular UB by say transferring them to your School of Philosophy/Alhambra city for 20% more Science/Culture, or to your Holy City if you have the Belief that gives you a bonus to most yields during a GA, or to a Synagogue/Mosque city if its celebrating a WLTKD. That is allows you to get up theming bonuses early is a nice touch too.
Lastly the vanilla BT had a negative associated with it that if the city was captured, the conqueror gained bonus gold. I'm not sure if the VoxPops one still has the same malus, but if not, the potential loss (or gain) of an Artifact harkens back to that weakness in a much more interesting way. I love playing against AI that have UIs because I can capture some of their uniqueness when I conquer them, and the current Eqypt feels similar, even though you can capture anyone's GWs. By the way, if you do capture Sarcophogi, are they normal yield artifacts that Eqypt's UA boost, or are they artifacts with base 5S/5C?
That it ties in with the UA makes me think that this is a well rounded Civ. Ancient Pharaohs vs Modern Indiana Jones is a flavour I quite like.
NerdExtrodinare
Chieftain
- Joined
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I like the Burial Tomb. I'd like to see it regain the +1 gold it loses in comparison to the base Caravansary but that's just a matter of opinion.
Enrico Swagolo
Deity
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- Jun 10, 2013
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- 2,387
I just don't get why the Burial Tomb replaces a Caravansary when there's another thing - namely the Shrine - it could replace to make more sense as Burial Tombs actually were connected to religion, faith and stuff. It's as perfect fit as an UB can be, especially since no civ has a unique UB shrine, so the "no UBs of the same building" theme would be kept up. It'd even move Egypt to Ancient Era where it really shined historically, though there's no way it'd be balanced with the current UA (unless the GW slot only got filled at Archaeology or something, and it had like +1C +1P/S/F over regular shrine to remain competitive before late).
And thus you answered your own question.
Enrico Swagolo
Deity
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I've meant it if the Tomb was exactly the same of the current one, in that it wouldn't ever be balanced if it gave a GW instantly. Having it be, like, a +some yields Shrine which gets its slot filled only upon reaching X tech (Archaeology? Theology?) or x era would make it fine, balanced and historically more accurate, though I have no clue if that is even doable.
Nope. And even if it was...why?
tu_79
Deity
That's a general problem of jungles, I guess. I'd rather have chariots not stopping on every obstacle, but it could make Egypt too good.
Well it doesn't feel bad to build an archer with other civs though. Honestly its an amazing start, just kind of wish I got to use my UU this game
And it would make a lot of sense to give him a desert start bias, wouldn't it?
Jungle-starts are pretty much always cancer, unless you're one of the jungle-civs I suppose.
As for Egypt start bias, I really don't want to see them with a desert bias. I mean yeah I get it, it makes sense, but desert-starts on average are still worse than non-desert starts and it feels lame to force desert-starts on a civ that doesn't really benefit from it.
If jungle-starts are seriously killing Egypt (which I do not believe they do), then wouldn't it make more sense to give them 'avoid jungle'-bias instead?
As for Egypt start bias, I really don't want to see them with a desert bias. I mean yeah I get it, it makes sense, but desert-starts on average are still worse than non-desert starts and it feels lame to force desert-starts on a civ that doesn't really benefit from it.
If jungle-starts are seriously killing Egypt (which I do not believe they do), then wouldn't it make more sense to give them 'avoid jungle'-bias instead?
Jungle or desert are both okay starts with this mod, even if they have less potential to make all stars allign than some great grassland start. The issue with Egypt is mostly cosmetic, but also having a 5 movement unit in an area where everybody else is heavily movement crippled helps with defense or forward settling; the prevalence of mining luxuries and marble can stack with the old part of Egypt UA quite good too. I'm pretty sure they have a 'avoid forest' bias in vanilla but it doesn't help much for how placement priorities are applied.
Any thoughts about swapping caravanserai/circus base building for the burial tomb/celidth hall UBs? Truffles/furs/cotton are a lot more common in the Celts starting bias (and they sort of 'need' it because of some pantheons belief, but as a civ could work anywhere else as well in CPB) while elephants and Egypt... yea, I just like the feel of it.
Any thoughts about swapping caravanserai/circus base building for the burial tomb/celidth hall UBs? Truffles/furs/cotton are a lot more common in the Celts starting bias (and they sort of 'need' it because of some pantheons belief, but as a civ could work anywhere else as well in CPB) while elephants and Egypt... yea, I just like the feel of it.
???
The theoretical strongest start possible is probably on desert. The desert pantheon is very strong, you get access to a very strong wonder. Guaranteed fresh water sources, floodplain bonus food, oases; I really think desert start bias is a huge advantage. In theory production is an issue, but desert almost guarantees your luxuries are mines, and has a high chance of getting iron, stone, and marble. You don't get forest to chop, and horses don't appear on desert, but those downsides are very manageable.
I honestly hate grassland without forests. Flat grassland is such a weak tile, many plantations that appear on it are very weak at first, some recover later in the game but some don't.
Did anyone claim that they were? I think Egypt had avoid forest in vanilla so I would be fine with that. Given this start it seems unlikely to me that Egypt has avoid forest currently (but maybe I'm just that unlucky)
This debate has been had elsewhere but several people seem to think Jungle is actually pretty good (myself included). Its just so food and production heavy, and tiles like Coca or jungle marble are so strong. I consider this start very good overall (even for Egypt), wouldn't you?
Spoiler Pic :
tu_79
Deity
You're cheating. Half your tiles aren't jungle.
We'll have to agree to disagree on this point. Some desert-starts are decent enough, and yeah the desert pantheon is great with some starts. But I just remember all those 7 floodplain 0 hills rest flat desert starts I've gotten, those are definitely not viable.
Also unless you've got strategic balance activated, which kinda messes up the tiles, horses can't spawn in desert, which is a huge problem.
Don't think I've ever seen a grassland start without hills or forests, definitely seen without one of them, but never both.
You're quite right about grassland having a higher number of bad luxuries available, but that's mainly because grassland pretty much enables all luxuries.
No idea what their current bias is actually.
As far as jungle-starts go, you're absolutely welcome to disagree with me there. Your attached start is fairly decent, worth mentioning that it's not really a jungle-start as half the tiles are forest, but fair enough. That's one of the better jungle-starts available and it would still get destroyed if you had hiawatha or montezuma as a neighbor, and your strategic choices from that point are fairly limited.
I mean you're REALLY lucky that you don't have any close neighbors to soak up your space before you do, and to have Venice as the closest neighbor.
Anyways, to each their own.
tu_79
Deity
For historical accuracy, I've even heard that Egypt was once forested and they ruined their forests with their construction efforts.
Indeed, but I don't play with rerolls and both Petra and Desert Folklore are hit or miss. Such dream start (flood plains setting with incense and plenty of marble/mines nearby) makes Trade a low priority and even if you succeed you end with a great capital but quite crap expos. That's all theorycrafting obviously, but I wouldn't rate desert bias that high because of that.
In my experience (Immortal/Deity, random civs at normal speed on large* continents maps, even if latest patch is making me play more often Immortal) riverside grassland with good luxuries is a solid start for all opening trees, mostly due to the flexibility: can explore with a couple warriors and meet civs/clear camps quick (desert barbarians are nasty), your expos come quick and you're sort of guaranteed early access to strategic resources. It's not like I work empty grassland tiles anyway, it's the surroundings that matter.
Your screen shows a good start (standard/deity I assume?), mostly due to the available lux and lack of competition for quick expansion to the south, it just feels so wrong as Egypt
sure chariots aren't in the making. Let us know how it goes, especially if Genghis goes rampage and your nearby CS turn red *I changed the default large map size (104x64) to 92x58 (standard is 80x52) and it really fits my cosmetic fetish/AI performances, just for the sake of comparison
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