Egyptians Storm Israeli Embassy

[MobBoss]

At least it is no longer Iran and Egypt: Lands of corrupt puppet dictators.

Do you vouch for the Supreme Leaders incorrupt-ness?

 

[Ajidica]

Iran is still corrupt, but it hasn't been a puppet.

 

[kramerfan86]

No, they're not. Attacking and looting an embassy is not what I picture under the term "reasonable protest".

Is your stance so weak you have to manipulate my quote to make it look like the exact opposite from what I said? I pretty bluntly said right after that quote that obviously these ones "WENT TOO FAR". But sure, Im saying its a reasonable protest

Overall Im not "lol Palestinians are innocent Israelis are evil!!", both sides are jerkoffs. I used to be pretty pro-Israel, I dont even blame them for their over the top counterattacks although at the end of the day its doing them more harm than good. The settlements are a joke though, that has tired me from bothering to support them. Frankly i think the west should stay out of a conflict where both sides are being jackwagons.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Do you vouch for the Supreme Leaders incorrupt-ness?

Do you have any proof they were any more corrupt than any other religious leader who has ever wielded political power? Are they any worse than the obviously corrupt puppet military dictator who had power before they did? Isn't a government chosen by the people of the country better than a military dictatorship installed and empowered by corrupt foreigners for imperialistic reasons?

 

[asbestos]

I'm not sure if this was mentioned already, but apparently the Egyptians stormed the Israeli embassy after Israel killed three Egyptian soldiers pursuing "terrorism" suspects (not sure what terrorist implies here, or whom exactly they were terrorizing).

The storming of the embassy in Cairo on Sept. 10 was precipitated by the killing of three Egyptian soldiers along the border by Israeli military forces pursuing terrorism suspects.

Israel has expressed regret for the deaths in both cases, but has not apologized for actions that it considers defensive.

http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/israel/index.html

 

[Bestbank Tiger]

Isn't a government chosen by the people of the country better than a military dictatorship installed and empowered by corrupt foreigners for imperialistic reasons?

Are you seriously asserting that the Iranian government is chosen by the people of Iran??

For starters, the "Assembly of Experts" chooses the Supreme Leader (currently Ali Khamenei) who holds more power than the President (currently Mahmoud Ahmedinejad). Second, the Council of Guardians decides who's allowed to run for President (only 4 of 238 candidates were allowed on the ballot last time). So to be honest, I have no idea what your post has to do with the topic, because Iran's government is not chosen by the people of Iran.

 

[Silurian]

From Haaretz

Netanyahu orders evacuation of Israel embassy in Jordan, fearing violent protests

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diploma...y-in-jordan-fearing-violent-protests-1.384512

 

[Formaldehyde]

Are you seriously asserting that the Iranian government is chosen by the people of Iran??

I am "seriously asserting" that the vast majority of Iranians do indeed support their current government. The polls have clearly shown this to be true after the last national election. While many do not like that it is a theocracy instead of a democracy, they actually used to have one of those before it was overthrown and a puppet dictator put in its place.

 

[NovaKart]

If they're so concerned about the Israeli embassy's documents they probably shouldn't have dumped them out the windows.

About Iran, everyone I've ever spoken with including people who currently live there absolutely detest the government. The elections in 2009 were followed by protests and claims that it was rigged and many people were jailed so I wouldn't go by the results to determine how popular the government is there.

 

[Formaldehyde]

The independent analysis of the numerous polls claim just the the opposite, despite the frequent statements in the West to the contrary.

http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/brmiddleeastnafricara/652.php

Indications of fraud in the June 12 Iranian presidential election, together with large-scale street demonstrations, have led to claims that Mahmoud Ahmadinejad did not actually win the election, and that the majority of Iranians perceive their government as illegitimate and favor regime change.

An analysis of multiple polls of the Iranian public from three different sources finds little evidence to support such conclusions.

It is a populist government. While there is some obvious discontent among the better educated at having a non-secular government with relatively restricted rights and liberty compared to the West, the government is really the will of the people. The recent Western-instigated turmoil after the last national elections apparently had just the opposite intended effect. It seems to have actually solidified support instead of divided it.

It is just a shame that the original secular democracy was overthrown with the direct aid of the US and British governments for merely nationalizing the oil industry. It would appear the sovereign Iranian government didn't particularly care for Western imperialism exploiting their country to such an extent.

 

[NovaKart]

Many Iranians think otherwise.



Apparently this poll was conducted by the University of Tehran and by two telephone polls. I wouldn't be surprised if the University of Tehran was told what to say and telephone calls can easily be monitered. I'm not saying they're not legitimate but I'm skeptical. If I was an Iranian citizen who didn't like the government I don't think I'd give my opinion on the phone. Monitoring the phone calls of several hundred or thousand people may be difficult but the people called could at least be traced.

The election protests were followed by heavy censorship of the internet, media, and a blockout on communication in general. Considering this, the numerous arrests and torture of dissidents and the assasination attempts of the opposition candiddate Mir Hossein Mousavi and Mohammad Khatami I think there's room for some serious skepticism of the Iranian government. If they really have to work that hard to maintain their popularity there must be some very serious opposition in that country.

 

[asbestos]

Iran is more democratic than the PRC, but it's effectively an oligarchy with the Ayatollah's in charge. It's a step up from a banana republic, though, if you don't mind living in a theocracy.

 

[classical_hero]

I am "seriously asserting" that the vast majority of Iranians do indeed support their current government. The polls have clearly shown this to be true after the last national election. While many do not like that it is a theocracy instead of a democracy, they actually used to have one of those before it was overthrown and a puppet dictator put in its place.

You are not going to get much support for these view, even in Iran. You have no idea what it is like in Iran, since opposition supporters are often put into prison for just saying something against the current rule.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Many Iranians think otherwise.

Once again, I am not claiming otherwise as I clearly stated above. There are indeed a number of better educated Iranians who desparately want a secular government and far more freedom and liberty. That is without a doubt true.

Apparently this poll was conducted by the University of Tehran and by two telephone polls. I wouldn't be surprised if the University of Tehran was told what to say and telephone calls can easily be monitered. I'm not saying they're not legitimate but I'm skeptical. If I was an Iranian citizen who didn't like the government I don't think I'd give my opinion on the phone. Monitoring the phone calls of several hundred or thousand people may be difficult but the people called could at least be traced.

Right... That must explain it. All the Iranians are so fearful of their lives that they cannot even be honest when asked exactly the same questions in anonymous interviews conducted by completely fair and impartial experts.

Washington Post: Polling in Iran Shows Real Support for Ahmadinejad

The election results in Iran may reflect the will of the Iranian people. Many experts are claiming that the margin of victory of incumbent President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was the result of fraud or manipulation, but our nationwide public opinion survey of Iranians three weeks before the vote showed Ahmadinejad leading by a more than 2 to 1 margin -- greater than his actual apparent margin of victory in Friday's election.

Independent and uncensored nationwide surveys of Iran are rare. Typically, preelection polls there are either conducted or monitored by the government and are notoriously untrustworthy. By contrast, the poll undertaken by our nonprofit organizations from May 11 to May 20 was the third in a series over the past two years. Conducted by telephone from a neighboring country, field work was carried out in Farsi by a polling company whose work in the region for ABC News and the BBC has received an Emmy award. Our polling was funded by the Rockefeller Brothers Fund.

The only demographic groups in which our survey found Mousavi leading or competitive with Ahmadinejad were university students and graduates, and the highest-income Iranians. When our poll was taken, almost a third of Iranians were also still undecided. Yet the baseline distributions we found then mirror the results reported by the Iranian authorities, indicating the possibility that the vote is not the product of widespread fraud.

Some might argue that the professed support for Ahmadinejad we found simply reflected fearful respondents' reluctance to provide honest answers to pollsters. Yet the integrity of our results is confirmed by the politically risky responses Iranians were willing to give to a host of questions. For instance, nearly four in five Iranians -- including most Ahmadinejad supporters -- said they wanted to change the political system to give them the right to elect Iran's supreme leader, who is not currently subject to popular vote. Similarly, Iranians chose free elections and a free press as their most important priorities for their government, virtually tied with improving the national economy. These were hardly "politically correct" responses to voice publicly in a largely authoritarian society.

Indeed, and consistently among all three of our surveys over the past two years, more than 70 percent of Iranians also expressed support for providing full access to weapons inspectors and a guarantee that Iran will not develop or possess nuclear weapons, in return for outside aid and investment. And 77 percent of Iranians favored normal relations and trade with the United States, another result consistent with our previous findings.

Iranians view their support for a more democratic system, with normal relations with the United States, as consonant with their support for Ahmadinejad. They do not want him to continue his hard-line policies. Rather, Iranians apparently see Ahmadinejad as their toughest negotiator, the person best positioned to bring home a favorable deal -- rather like a Persian Nixon going to China.

Allegations of fraud and electoral manipulation will serve to further isolate Iran and are likely to increase its belligerence and intransigence against the outside world. Before other countries, including the United States, jump to the conclusion that the Iranian presidential elections were fraudulent, with the grave consequences such charges could bring, they should consider all independent information. The fact may simply be that the reelection of President Ahmadinejad is what the Iranian people wanted.

Ken Ballen is president of Terror Free Tomorrow: The Center for Public Opinion, a nonprofit institute that researches attitudes toward extremism. Patrick Doherty is deputy director of the American Strategy Program at the New America Foundation. The groups' May 11-20 polling consisted of 1,001 interviews across Iran and had a 3.1 percentage point margin of error.

You are not going to get much support for these view, even in Iran. You have no idea what it is like in Iran, since opposition supporters are often put into prison for just saying something against the current rule.

What I do know is that there has been a great deal of propaganda generated by Fox News and others who are clearly anti-Iran, and that it has been very effective. The bad news is that most Iranians hate the US government for quite obvious reasons. The good news is that they love the American people and the Western world in general.


Link to video.


Link to video.


Link to video.

 

[NovaKart]

It certainly does bring that idea into question but considering the big outbreak of post election protests, the government's crackdown on media, their habit of jailing and torturing dissidents and the serious censorship the regime practices I'm not willing to say the government reflects the wishes of the people. It could be that they just don't see any viable alternative and don't have confidence in the opposition. One of my friends in Egypt hates the government there but he supported Mubarak because he at least gave some stability to the country. Maybe it's similar for many Iranians. Everyone I know from Iran (and these are people who live there) hates Ahmedinejad, think he's a tyrant and desperately wishes for political change. It's not just an educated elitist group that thinks this either.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Based on the responses to the poll above, their government clearly doesn't reflect the views of the majority in many ways. Most of them want their government to take a far more moderate position on a number of issues. But it also seems clear that they do support that government and the way it continues to stand up against various foreign governments which are trying to interfere in their internal policies and even attempt to depose it.

It seems that many Iranians are very pleasant and intelligent people who enjoy Western influences in their lives. While many obviously don't care to live under strict Islamic rulers with limited freedom and liberty, they definitely prefer it to the previous dictatorship and are quite hostile towards outside interference in their own affairs. Who can really blame them after having to live under such a repressive government for so many decades?

I imagine that many Egyptians are going to have a quite similar reaction to the US if we elect another GWB or Reagan who may very well be willing to deprive them of their own freedom and liberty yet again for the supposed sake of stability with Israel.

Many Westerners seem to forget that all this is not just a matter of Western hegemony and imperialism. It is also an ongoing battle between the Shia and the Sunni. The Saudis in particular are quite interested in seeing a different government in Iran, Iraq, and Syria for their own religious reasons. And Egypt is also predominately Sunni. If they again become more hostile towards Israel, that will likely detract from those goals.

 

[classical_hero]

I am so glad you were able to put Fox News into the discussion. I am really proud of you. I have to give an award for that.

 

[Ajidica]

I'm not getting the focus on Iran. It is as much a dictatorship as those old Baathist dictators we so lovingly supported as they brutaly put down insurrections or invaded neighboring countries. The only functional difference I can see is that we managed to convince ourselves that the old Baathist dictators were good because of a reason I honestly cannot figure out.

 

[Formaldehyde]

I am so glad you were able to put Fox News into the discussion. I am really proud of you. I have to give an award for that.

i was merely pointing out how Iran has been the victim of a massive propaganda campaign. And Fox News is leading that campaign as the video clearly shows. But they are certainly not the only source of that propaganda. They just happen to be the most vocal, and even today continue to call for the invasion of Iran.

In your own country, another Murdoch-owned media company is likely spearheading that task.

 

[classical_hero]

I don't even know how that is part of the topic. But according to you, I ran and North Korea must be pretty neat places to live.