Elohim + 12th lvl Monks + 100 xp cap.

[Gilg]

Enlighten me.. How is it done?
And as for the monks, I'm wondering why they get the pacifist promotion... Getting to lvl 12 with 3/5 + 1 spirit is no fun.
Btw. I hate that xp cap!! It should be optional.

 

[Verily]

Experience from barbarians is capped at 100, but units can go infinitely higher from regular battles with the AI (or against barbarians if you have the Raiders trait or the Valor promotion).

 

[Gilg]

I fell dumb.....

But still..... getting mutible pacifist monks to lvl 12....
I wouldn't convert my mana to the spirit version if i just had 1-2-3 monks with sufficient xp to get the +2 affinity.
On the other side it seems dangerous/expensive to try and nurse 3/5 units alongside a standard army.

 

[Vehem]

I fell dumb.....

But still..... getting mutible pacifist monks to lvl 12....
I wouldn't convert my mana to the spirit version if i just had 1-2-3 monks with sufficient xp to get the +2 affinity.
On the other side it seems dangerous/expensive to try and nurse 3/5 units alongside a standard army.

Aye - 12 is definitely high - but it's a nice challenge.

Having Affinity 2 for *anything* can be very powerful - but it does depend on how many mana nodes are on your map. For small maps, it's going to be quite tough to get enough to make it worth while. Larger maps it's not uncommon to have 5 or 6 Mana nodes relatively early on (first 250 turns or so) which can all be dedicated to Spirit Mana for Strength 9 or 10 attack, 11 or 12 defense Monk units. There's also no limit on how many you could have. That's just with the first Affinity - if they ever do reach Level 12 - those units are getting +10 Strength or more from the affinity.

The "alongside a standard army" part is interesting. The most successful games I've had as Elohim have basically been Monks and Archers. I only managed to get a single Level 12 (standard size map) but I did manage to get the monks to Strength 8/9 by turn 200 by aggressively settling near every node my scouts uncovered as soon as it was feasible. As my wars were defensive (I had the Doviello next door and they kept throwing stacks at me) - the Pacifist promotion was no issue. I basically only captured one city in the whole of that game, but was never really in danger of losing any of my own, save for one border city early-game.

The Level 12 monk was the defender against the largest stack the Doviello ever sent (30+ Battlemasters with assorted catapults, hunters and other random units) but with a Defensive strength of 17 before taking into account Combat5, or Walls, or Defender, or the Drill Promotions - he pretty much stopped the army on his own (the last 5 or 6 units were defended against by archers instead - but he did kill a ridiculous number - he reached level 14 from it). Think of the palace scene in "Hero".

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An Altar strategy as the Elohim is also very useful - as the monks get the free disciple XP from the Altars, and they are also potentially very good at creating Great Prophets (lots of priest slots and bonus GPP production).

 

[MagisterCultuum]

So...any chance we can convince you to go ahead and look into allowing (truncated) fractional affinity, seperate attack and defense affinity, seperate attack and defense typed damage, affinity damage types defined where affinity is given instead of always the same for each resource, and typed range strength anytime soon?

 

[Vehem]

So...any chance we can convince you to go ahead and look into allowing (truncated) fractional affinity, seperate attack and defense affinity, seperate attack and defense typed damage, affinity damage types defined where affinity is given instead of always the same for each resource, and typed range strength anytime soon?

Fractional Affinity - can definitely see uses. Allows for low level elemental summons to have affinity.
Attack and Defense Affinity - very situational need, but would suit Monks quite well - 0.5 Spirit Affinity Attack, 1.5 Spirit Affinity Defense etc
Attack and Defense Types - can't see an immediate use
Differing damage types for affinities - again, nothing springs to mind
Typed Range Strength - can see uses, but might be quite a bit of work

Got quite a lot on "the list" to be tackled already, but the top two allow some interesting options. The others are less likely to see any code anytime soon - unless a pressing need for their functionality is found.

 

[Gilg]

.... + 2 affinity is very strong indeed, but perhaps that could be changed!?

In my time I've played much much more than my fair share of Diablo/d2/d2 lod/eastern sun. Like one of pavlovs dogs I love getting that last level. With a starting strenght of 3 it seems impossible chase it.... one must hope that experience comes to you instead of the other way around.

Perhaps they could gain xp slowly like priests and at lvl 4 gain the "strong promotion. Monks meditate to gain insight, don't they?

 

[zup]

Or possibly most monks are supposed to perish young while a few become godlike?

 

[Gilg]

The concept of "a few godlike" is what I want to avoid here...
My first thing to whine about is the amount of national units, it may be a necessary evil, but imho their numbers shouldn't be increased. Not by actual NU's and not by wannabes.
The second point is that the get-to-a-certain-level-and-then-home-to-claim-the-prize thingie is too good to waste on lvl. 12 units.
3rd: It's the Elohim.... life/knowledge/guardianship kamikaze units does not fit in.
3 off. strength xp chasers are a good definition of kamikaze attitude (gameplaywise at least( I understand how the Elo would want their spiritual increase to come from passive/defensive roles..... but still!?!).

 

[Tarquelne]

Fractional Affinity - can definitely see uses. Allows for low level elemental summons to have affinity.

Even the +1 Affinity on most Summons possessing it makes me uneasy. Choices between 0 and 1 in addition to between 1 and 2 would be great IMO.

Differing damage types for affinities - again, nothing springs to mind

I'd actually like to see most affinities result in damage-type increases. Fire affinity gives bonus to Fire damage, for example. A Monk's Spirit affinity gives the bonus to... Holy damage?

unless a pressing need for their functionality is found.

Maybe MC and I can get together and manufacture a "pressing need". Where's that Marketing textbook...

 

[Vehem]

3 off. strength xp chasers are a good definition of kamikaze attitude (gameplaywise at least( I understand how the Elo would want their spiritual increase to come from passive/defensive roles..... but still!?!).

This is where the logic falls down. You should very rarely be using the offensive strength. One of Sun Tzu's principles of war was that you should consolidate upon your strengths and minimize your weaknesses. Being a pacifist makes offensive action a weakness for the Elohim - but it is not difficult to force/persuade the AI to attack your units. It's a different style of play, but it is still effective.

The main times you'd need to attack is to capture enemy cities - but that's arguably not what the Elohim are about anyway. It seems fitting that they're less able to do so in the early game, not resorting to aggressive action until other options have been exhausted (and until the barbs have leveled up your defensive monks to a decent standard).

If it's kamikaze - don't do it. Wait until you can tilt the scales in your favour. They're not a conquer-all civ in this incarnation (as is fitting to the lore - conversely the Doviello don't suit a builder strategy, but that is readily accepted).

 

[Kjara]

This is where the logic falls down. You should very rarely be using the offensive strength. One of Sun Tzu's principles of war was that you should consolidate upon your strengths and minimize your weaknesses. Being a pacifist makes offensive action a weakness for the Elohim - but it is not difficult to force/persuade the AI to attack your units. It's a different style of play, but it is still effective.

The main times you'd need to attack is to capture enemy cities - but that's arguably not what the Elohim are about anyway. It seems fitting that they're less able to do so in the early game, not resorting to aggressive action until other options have been exhausted (and until the barbs have leveled up your defensive monks to a decent standard).

If it's kamikaze - don't do it. Wait until you can tilt the scales in your favour. They're not a conquer-all civ in this incarnation (as is fitting to the lore - conversely the Doviello don't suit a builder strategy, but that is readily accepted).

Though, if you consider the fact that you can pop them out at level 4(with altarIV + app) and they can get city raider 1 + 2x combat, with a few that are just 3xcombat for defense. Figure that with the altar you start with blessed(i think?) so your first attack outside your borders is at 4 str *1.65 = 6.something str attack. Not that bad of a suicide unit when they first become available for taking a town or 2. This was even without rushing the monks(as there was alot of jungle, and I needed sanitation).

Was able to get 2 additional spirit mana, so the ones that survive after hitting level 6 were running around as 6/8. This combined with detouring to grab catapults was more than enough to make taking cities easy. Ended with a stack of about 7 of them being ~level 8, with steady trickle of new defense ones to leave in the new cities(coming out at 5*1.6 = 8 is a decent city defender as well). This was enough to run over 3 players in quick succession. Finished the game before any of them got to level 12, but even so, just spirit 1 affinity was more than enough to use them on the offensive. Also helped that I managed to pick up spiritual from the beacon(well whatever world site give it), giving them a free mobility promotion as well. What really sucks with this though, is when someone removes access to resources, and they all go back to being 3/4.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

speaking of Elohim, it just came to my mind that the best way to wage an offensive war with them, offsetting the pacifist trait, is to act as raiders, destroying all enemy tile improvements, thus forcing them to attack you. but this doesn't sound very thematic now, does it?

maybe the Elohim could be unable to pillage some kinds of improvements. I mean, I can see them destroying enemy forts, and even mines and mills to a degree. but razing farms and towns seems really weird for them, slaughtering farmers and commoners is not pacifist by any means I guess after all, they ARE tolerant ( even though gameplay-wise the tolerant trait doesn't work for them ) , and they should be thinking along the lines of "the people are innocent, it's their master that lured them into evil and hatred. let them live!"

so what about making the Elohim unable to pillage towns, farms and whatever else makes sense, and giving them some other kind of buff in return?