Elohim Monks

[jimi12]

Why cant Monks upgrade to tier 4 units?

I had spammed these guys and some had gotten to level 8 or 9 and then i find out they dont upgrade. Thematically, they should be able to turn into paladins more than anybody. This seems like an oversight. Is this intentional?

 

[Zechnophobe]

They should definately upgrade to paladins and high priests, I agree.

 

[Fafnir13]

Fighting with a sword in full armor is vastly different from running around barefoot with a beatin' stick. Maybe Elohim paladin's could just be given a unique look, some extra mobility, and maybe a higher attack power but a lower defense. That or they could upgrade into priest type units. It's still a stretch but a tad closer to the monk style of things.

 

[Amerigo Arturo]

Normal priest can be upgraded to Paladins, don't see why a Monk couldn't. Even a Vampire can be upgraded to a Paladin.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Warfare is an Anathema to the Monks. They don't carry physical weapons, relying instead upon spiritual purity. They devote themselves to fighting demons, not their fellow man. Although they will defend themselves, they try to be non-violent and won't kill a foe if there ins any chance of ending the conflict peacefully. They wouldn't even kill a werewolf, choosing instead to tie it up and go on a long quest to try to find a cure for lycanthropy.

Paladins are quite different. They use physical force to fight evil, and won;t hesitate to kill those who have sided with evil. Paladins are more fanatical and Law oriented, while Monks are all spirit. As you probably know, Junil, the god of law, and Sirona, the godess of wisdom/spirit, don't get along.


That said, the Crusader civilopedia specifically says that old Crusaders often weary of war and choose to live out the rest of their life fighting spiritual foes. Logically, they should upgrade to monks. Of course, currently Crusaders are the stronger unit....



In my version, Monks will be available at Mysticism. They will have 1 (since I'm giving the Elohim leaders Spiritual again they will start with mobility) and 1/2 , but will also have at least 1 Spirit affinity (which gives holy strength in my version). This means they can be quite stronger later in the game (especially vs demons) without needing an upgrade.

I was thinking that it would be good to make them either be unable to attack or to have a combat limit, but only if I could figure out a way to make that only apply against living units. They shoudl still be able to kill demons and the undead.


Although they won't really need an upgrade, I'll probably let then upgrade to Priests of good religions (certainly Vicars, probably Confessors, Stonewardens, and Priests of the leaves too) anyway.

I'm also thinking that I'll give every civ a powerful and particularly thematic (sometimes requireing the most appropriate religion, civic, or alignment) unique limit 1 national unit. The Amurites will have the Cassawallen, the Bannor the Patriarch of the Order, etc. These will all be upgrades with very high level requirements, and will basically be a second national hero that can be replaced when killed. It is more a heroic rank than a heroic persona. Of course, many of them will probably actually be the rank held by some of the actual leaders. The Elohim's would probably have to be the Head of the Order of the Elohim Monks, probably called The Logos. Naturally, it would be a Monk upgrade.

 

[rocklikeafool]

Hmm...well, Monks are also more oriented towards martial art-like combat than use of swords or maces. They also wear no armor, relyin on their natural skills to avoid hurt. So, a Monk upgradin to a Paladin is kinda like a worker upgradin to Warrior. It don't make sense.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

What's wrong with a worker upgrading to a warrior? Isn't that basically how conscription works in real life?

I don't think that the barrier to a monk upgrading toa paladin isn;t about equipment, but their whole philosophy of life.

 

[rocklikeafool]

What's wrong with a worker upgrading to a warrior? Isn't that basically how conscription works in real life?

I don't think that the barrier to a monk upgrading toa paladin isn;t about equipment, but their whole philosophy of life.

The key, as you mentioned, is philosophy. Warriors are bout war. Workers are bout work. Consider how many cultures consider the way of the warrior to be a somewat (not holy, but special) way of life. So, the difference in philosophy remains.

 

[kumquatelvis]

At the least they should be able to upgrade to high priests. Or maybe some sort of grand master monk (UU for Elohim, replaces Paladin?).

 

[Amerigo Arturo]

Well, in real the real world, Western monks became armored warriors at times, the Templars were Monastic knights. I don't know Eastern history as well, but I have read a couple of the Chinese classics and monks picking up weapons to fight was pretty common. Now, the real problem here doesn't seem to be philosophy as much as aesthetic, an Eastern monk type turning into a Western holy knight type.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

upgrade monks to a paladin UU that is flavourful then. a Sohei or something.

 

[rocklikeafool]

Hmm...that makes a lotta sense and is very true. Well, it could be solved by a UU that replaces the Paladin, kumquatelvis suggested, and is similar to the Templars, as Amerigo_Arturo suggested. Jus make a new unit usin XML and graphics.

 

[rocklikeafool]

upgrade monks to a paladin UU that is flavourful then. a Sohei or something.

Sohei, perfect name for this UU.

 

[Uberness]

A Grandmaster monk upgrade from the regular monk would be a good idea, or a unit stronger then monks down the religious line, and monks staying as the general early fighter and demonslayer.

Could have at Theocracy a unit that can be built or upgraded from monks, starts off strong, but has a reverse stigmata where it loses strength the higher the armaggedon counter.

Or at the very least a new type of monk at righteousness.

 

[Tarquelne]

Sohei from EWS module.

Of course the module contains more than the Paladin UU... and isn't updated to 3.17 yet... and, IIRC, Monks don't upgrade to Sohei.

 

[Arctic Circle]

Well. Quite a few bishops spent most of their lives in battle-gear. I see Paladins more like knights-templar, holy order/religious type that takes up arms in the name of a god.

Anyhow, it is a very small change, if you want to do it. PM me if anyone needs to make it themselves in their own CIV version.

 

[rocklikeafool]

Sohei from EWS module.

Of course the module contains more than the Paladin UU... and isn't updated to 3.17 yet... and, IIRC, Monks don't upgrade to Sohei.

That'd be a perfect upgrade imho.

 

[Darksaber1]

Well, around 1550, the Dictotor of Japan (I forget his title and name) went on a rampage against the Buddist monks, because they had a habit of turning militant at a moments notice. So he invited in the Jesuits, because they wern't.

 

[A_Hamster]

Some clarifications are in order. Warrior monks are found in Western European history, was well as that of China and Japan. (Although the Orthodox church has a monastic tradition as well, I don't know enough about Byzantine history to say if they had warrior monks in a fashion similar to that of Catholicism.)

In Western Europe, the "warrior monk" tradition is represented by the "Knights of Christ", the crusading orders like the Knights Templars, the Knights Hospitilars, and the Teutonic Knights. While they took monastic vows similar to that of the more conventional orders of monks like the Benedictines and Dominicans, they also fought armed and armored as knights or men-at-arms of the day. As the orders became more formally organized, their military structures became more complex with a much more balanced mix of forces than just mounted knights, mounted men-at-arms, and a random mix of footmen. So at least in the Western European tradition, warrior monks in terms of equipment and tactics are indistinguishable from secular military forces. What distinguishes them are their monk's vows.

In most of Japanese history beginning with the Heian period (Approx. 800-1000 AD), warrior monks have played a significant role in that nation's political and military history. When religious force was insufficient to get economic concessions from the Emperor, the sohei and the yamabushi would storm down from the monastaries of Mt. Hiei and try to wring those concessions by force. They were successful often enough that military threats made by the monataries were taken seriously by the Imperial government and later the Shogunates.

The equipment of sohei and the yamabushi varied based on whether it was peacetime or war. The contemporary western stereotype of the barefoot Oriental monk with bo staff is appropriate for peacetime, but when the monks went to war, they usually were wearing at least light infantry armor, and used the naginata (a polearm with a curved head). {My suspicion, although without access to the primary sources I can't say for sure, is that the sohei preference for naginata is due to the similarity of how bo and naginata are wielded. One could practice with the bo in peacetime and thus skirt the weapon-bans, then break out the naginatas when one revolts against the government.} So if one wants a justification for having Elohim monks upgrading to Paladins, either Western European Catholic tradition or Japanese Shinto and Buddhist tradition will serve.

However, China is where we in the West get the stereotype of the barefoot Oriental monk, perpetuated a generation or so ago here in the U.S. with Kung Fu. The famous Shaolin monks did usually fight unarmored, and often unarmed due to the weapon-bans, as well as their tradition of martial arts came from an attempt to equalize the situation between unarmed peasantry and armed soldiers. However, they did train with various weapons and could fight with them if necessary. If Elohim monks are coming from this tradition, paladin is more of a reach, but there is still some justification, especially with the tradition of championing the peasantry against oppressive government soldiers.

@Darksaber. Oda Norabunga (sp?). He first fought against the Ikko Ikki, which was a combination of a type of militant Buddhism with peasant communes. From the peasant point of view, this was a great alternate to the conventional caste system of traditional Japanese society since one was free of feudal constraints and had self-government. From the POV of the samurai, the peasants had to be put in their place. These peasants and the Buddhist warrior-monks did kick some serious butt before finally being exterminated. Oda Norabunga did not believe in leaving an enemy alive. Any Ikko Ikki who did not run away [and most fought to the death since they believed that death in battle sent you to paradise] were killed, as well as their women and children.

Since the monks of Mt Hiei knew that Oda Norabunga was going after them once he finished off the Ikko Ikki, they had been supporting the Ikko Ikki. Oda Norabunga did come after them, and it is said the entire mountain burned as every monastery (and there were 100+) was stormed, set afire, and the sohei given a choice of dying in the flames or a warrior's death. This broke the power of Mt. Hiei for the rest of the medieval period.

 

[KillerClowns]

I'm definetly agreeing with Monks being able to update to Paladins, but giving them polearms and light armor to keep in style. I like the Sohei's look. I don't know if unique art would do, or if a full-blown UU would be worth the effort. If you go for the UU, I'd say make them a bit weaker than ordinary paladins, but with two moves and a significantly higher bonus against demons and/or undead so that, against either the unnatural, the Paladin-Monk would be better than the Paladin, but against mortals, the Paladin would be stronger.

It's probably a reach, but more corrupted variants of the Elohim (e.g. my beloved Esus/Elohim mix) should allow their monks to update to druids/eidolons, possibly (altough now I'm really stretching) with UUs for each, or at least the eidolon (since a monk becoming a druid isn't that strange).
In the (very unlikely) scenario of corrupted Elohim getting an Eidolon UU, I say remove its demonic nature and AC effects so it's just a mortal (albeit corrupted) monk, weaken it slightly compared to Eidolons and give it a bonus against angels to make Basium sweat a bit.