Here is my latest chat with Provolution:
Spoiler part 1 :
Niklas hello
Provolution hi
Provolution good news
Provolution we are preparing a counter offer here, very close to yours
Niklas ok, how soon?
Provolution today we will have the counteroffer
Niklas I was highly surprised to see you had played already
Provolution we had too
Provolution but we are close to a conclusion
Niklas had to?
Provolution there was a scout movement of big importance, that was impacted by a poll
Provolution but you will be let through before writing
Provolution so no worries
Niklas well, preferably we would like to be let through *this* turn, so every turn counts
Provolution there will be one more tech, as it seems
Provolution to let you know
Niklas and obviously you could play but not press end turn, so what's the rush?
Provolution one small tech
Niklas small tech?
Provolution sailing is of big priority to us
Niklas will you have alphabet before turn 70?
Provolution but writing, then sailing then alpha
Provolution yes
Niklas before turn 65 too?
Provolution need to check that out
Provolution but certainly before t70
Niklas hmm, I really hope that's enough
Provolution a little bit above 65
Provolution but not by much
Provolution remember, we research faster as we grow
Niklas surely you would have accurate predictions for that already?
Provolution just about
Provolution likely 67-69 turns
Provolution depending on growth and MMing
Niklas I'm sorry, but I just don't think we will be able to agree to that
Niklas I guess I have the necessary clearance to tell you that no, we do not have any easily accessibly Copper
Provolution what is your plans for Oracle?
Provolution you noticed Saturn got 3 cities too?
Niklas barbarian axes will appear on turn 66, and we will need to research Archery *after* we receive Hunting and AH from you
Niklas so if we receive these techs from you on turn 69, that's certainly going to be too late
Provolution ok
Provolution but what is your oracle plan?
Niklas you know the tech tree as well as I do, so I guess there's no point not saying
Niklas there are three techs we discuss - Metal Casting, Currency and Feudalism
Provolution ok
Provolution I can see all of these merit a consideration
Niklas does your team have a preference?
Provolution this map is real big
Provolution so productivity (citywise) is essential
Provolution I know you got a lot of ocean tiles in your capital
Niklas so is decent barb defense
Niklas I'm not sure where you've gotten that idea really
Provolution so I can understand colossus is a very good wonder for you
Niklas I think we are quite equivalent in terms of sea tiles in the capital
Provolution you got 19 land tiles, we got 23
Provolution so we get slightly more land
Provolution i know that from settings
Niklas I must question those numbers
Niklas we surely do *not* have 19 land tiles
Provolution 1 % landmass, we got 1.21 %
Provolution according to settings
Provolution anyhow. metal casting I guess would impact us all the most
Niklas checking the game, indeed we do *not* have 19 land tiles
Niklas so I'm not sure how those numbers are gotten actually
Provolution what do you think about this trade: Writing/Sailing for Meditation/Priesthood/Masonry ?
Provolution gives you 10 beakers more
Provolution and we need sailing for many reasons
Niklas minute advantage is not really a question, that's rather irrelevant
Niklas you know the reasons already, we really can't agree to any trade that will include a delay of alphabet
Niklas it doesn't matter how much you proclaim the virtues of Sailing, which we do not in any way deny
Niklas it won't help us
Provolution ok, we made a test game, and barbs showed up later than turn 70
Niklas I realize you're a salesperson, but we won't buy something that might be a risk to us
Provolution i know
Niklas barbs show up depending on when the teams research BW
Niklas all teams had BW very early in this game, so we know *accurately* that barb axes *will* appear on turn 66
Provolution so, what is the latest we can have alphabet ready ?
Niklas I believe turn 63-65 would be doable, we (or you) obviously need a few turns to research Archery too
Niklas and the axes won't spawn right outside the gate, so turn 70 is probably when we would need completed archers
Provolution ok
Provolution what if you replaced masonry for archery
Provolution we havent got archery either
Niklas replaced how?
Provolution archery/meditation/priesthood for writing/sailng
Provolution you probably need hunting anyways
Niklas yes, that's the point
Niklas if we delay alphabet, we would have to research hunting and archery ourselves, as well as AH since we can't wait for it that long
Niklas I'm sure I've told you before
Provolution but sailing overlaps archery in time
Provolution so its quite doable
Niklas it is doable *if* we research hunting+archery+AH ourselves
Niklas which would obviously cost several hundred beakers unnecessarily
Niklas and would delay our path to monarchy, and yours obviously, by a substantial amount of time
Niklas and there's no way you're going to sell me the idea that sailing is even one fifth as important as monarchy to either team
Provolution let you know
Niklas I realize you probably have towns that are connected only by river, that would have to wait for connection and trade routes
Provolution we scrapped poly
Niklas you sound as if that is a sacrifice, when obviously you are the better off for it
Provolution for me, not a sacrifice
Niklas even if not everyone on your team sees that
Provolution i stated it as a fact
Provolution not as a sacrifice
Niklas sure
Niklas I mean no offense
Provolution
Provolution i kniw
Provolution know
Provolution just checked research costs for hunting-archery-ah
Niklas it just sounds to me like you are trying to tell me it's ok that you research Sailing since there's a lot of other silly stuff you *aren't* doing
Niklas hunting = 59, archery = 89, AH = 149
Provolution yes
Provolution and I guess you are 1 turn into priesthood
Niklas yes
Provolution 89 that too
Provolution so you are 3 turns away from that
Niklas there's no question that we could reach Archery in time if we research it ourselves
Provolution I think archery is a good insurance
Provolution and we need it too
Niklas it is, but it is also a complete waste of a wonderful opportunity for early trade
Provolution not a complete waste
Provolution this is only 3 turns more or so
Niklas 3 turns???!?
Niklas you're telling me you expect us to research over 250 beakers in 3 turns??
Provolution well, sailing helps us a lot, and we do not have the expansive trait
Provolution so our workers are slower
Provolution we need sailing to connect coastal cities
Niklas sure, a turn or two
Niklas so would we, but we are happy to wait, since early connection is far less important than early monarchy
Niklas or early protection for that matter
Provolution I just see you can do hunting/archery in the same period we do sailing
Niklas seriously, how many extra beakers do you expect to gain by early sailing?
Niklas let's count high, let's say 5 per turn
Niklas you're never going to reach that number, but let's count with it
Niklas how many beakers do we lose on doing double reseach?
Provolution we consider the Great Lighthouse too
Niklas ah, that would explain the wish for Masonry
Niklas I understand, but again, there is no way that any one other team would really beat an alliance to it
Niklas and I would be *very* surprised if you're saying you want to start the GLH before turn 70 anyway
Niklas I have to be honest with you
Niklas what this all sounds like to me is that your team is interested first and foremost in advancing your own nation domestically, and might cooperate if it suits your plans
Niklas whereas to our team, cooperation comes foremost, and we are willing to postpone all domestic improvement, apart from our immediate needs for defense, to ensure that cooperation works smoothely
Provolution I think we can omit sailing, if we can talk about guarantees after the main trade
Niklas there is no one tech that we are aiming for that would not equally benefit both teams, and we do not even look at the tech tree without considering what techs would benefit our partners
Niklas what guarantees would that be?
Provolution CoL run for us, and a lock-in for Oracle tech
Niklas we will most definitely agree to the first
Provolution and we give you passage before writing (turn 48 or 49)
Provolution the people that want to delay you are down to 2 people
Niklas "and a lock-in for Oracle tech", what does this mean exactly?
Provolution so they are marginalized
Provolution that we know your proposed tech for Oracle
Provolution because that would influence our tech priorites
Niklas care to tell me how you are thinking on the matter?
Niklas btw, we've had a few grumpy comments in our forum about how "respectful and cooperative" it is of you to play the save without pausing
Niklas not a good way to foster good sentiments towards you I'm afraid
Provolution oh sorry for that
Provolution but we have agreed to the 98 % of the deal
Provolution and we removed the internal hurdles
Niklas yes, but you know that what you consider a "marginal" change to the treaty can obviously be make or break for us
Provolution I am not seeking brinkmanship
Niklas and there is nothing that guarantees that this will be settled within the next 24 hours, or even 72, so pausing the game would be very much appreciated
Niklas brinkmanship?
Niklas sorry, I don't know that word
Provolution that means, we are not pushing any limit
Provolution we can squeeze the poll to 24 now
Provolution if we can agree on three main items
Niklas I'm glad to hear, but what if the poll result is negative?
Niklas there are strong reasons still to slow down the game, so we would very much appreciate if you will do that from now
Niklas on
Niklas until the treaty is signed and sealed, no less
Provolution ok, fair enough
Provolution but there are only 3 items now
Provolution your problem with sailing
Provolution and how to handle Oracle
Provolution and the barb issue
Niklas point 1 and 3 are in our eyes the same
Niklas and as for the Oracle, we truly are not decided yet, there are factions pushing for different directions within our team too
Niklas so knowing how you feel on the matter would help a great deal
Provolution if we are to set aside Sailing, since Oracle would obviously have to be produced very quickly
Provolution we would like to know of a follow up deal including the gains from the Oracle
Niklas oh - I thought our treaty proposal made that clear already
Niklas any follow up deal, which we are dedicated to, will definitely include the gains from the Oracle, whatever tech that may be
Provolution you learnt two words already, motorcade and brinkmanship
Niklas if we are the ones to build the Oracle, we only ask for a small compensation for the invested hammers, such as you taking a slightly higher research load, but no compensation for the tech itself
Provolution ok
Provolution I think a statement on the barb threat would help
Niklas how do you envision that?
Provolution that you have estimated the 66 turn problem
Niklas and I thought we had included one already
Provolution it was a very long text
Provolution maybe I should highlight it
Niklas but in your own words, you do not have the memory of a goldfish, and like to receive long texts
Provolution I know
Provolution but this is part of a bigger discussion
Niklas The reason we are pushing for a beeline for Alphabet and Monarchy is that we are working against time. We have a direct need for several techs from you, for the defense of our homeland. It is not long until the less civilized people of this world figure out how to make axes {turn 65-70 or so}, [...]"
Niklas directly cut from the text you received
Provolution you got any happiness resources at all?
Niklas not in the absolute vicinity
Niklas why?
Provolution then I read your very imminent need for monarchy
Niklas we would have considered that need imminent regardless
Niklas but yes, it surely factors in
Provolution but AH does not give you more defense
Provolution I mean
Provolution it is not a certainty you get a horse
Provolution archery is your only real security
Niklas indeed, but delaying AH is bad due primarily to domestic matters
Provolution there you go, you have domestic interests too
Niklas we have two towns with AH resources that need improving
Niklas yes, we do, but as I've noted we are happy to postpone them until the beeline is complete
Niklas whereas if we hadn't met you, or if no deal would be possible, we would and could not delay these techs until after monarchy
Niklas so yes, of course we have needs, but none stronger than the needs of cooperation
Provolution when is your target date for the oracle?
Niklas or rather, there are no single domestic gains we could make that would not be diminished by the gains made from an early trade
Niklas I'm not completely sure actually, but I believe turn 70 has been discussed as some sort of lower limit on when we could practically have it
Niklas and obviously we would want the relevant prerequisites to whatever follow-up tech we want to take with it
Provolution obviously we got rivers and cottages coming up
Provolution so our research pace is actually quite good
Niklas and you are financial, so it will be slightly higher than ours initially
Provolution and sailing allows us to work the water tiles
Niklas um, *fishing* allows you to work the water tiles already
Provolution this is why sailing is not as bad as you may think in terms of time
Provolution but the lighthouse allows for 1 more food
Provolution we may even build a library to get to alphabet quicker
Niklas it does, but it also costs quite a bit to set up, and at the small size you are at there is no point in working coast over a riverside cottage
Niklas I would assume you do, of course
Provolution if we can squeeze in sailing and beat the barb deadline, its quite doable
Niklas it could be, though I would really hate to work the deadline like that
Niklas what we are discussing here is an absolute bare minimum of what we need for defense
Provolution archery ?
Niklas if there is any chance we could have the prerequisites for archery earlier, so we could start building archers earlier, then of course we would prefer that
Niklas I mean minimum in terms of actual units built, not just techs needed
Niklas I also hope you realize that you and I are both in the same position
Niklas I'm trying to be quite, um, moderate here, while there are people on the team that would be far more, um, upset by your wishes to deviate
Niklas and the general sentiment would be that cooperation would "obviously" not be your primary goal at all
Provolution ok fair enough
Provolution we may need to strive for the beeline
Niklas that would definitely make cooperation *much* easier
Niklas if you want any kind of ammunition for why beelining is the better idea, apart from this chatlog, then I would be happy to expound on our thoughts
Provolution I know Oyzar is really really beeline oriented
Provolution and count beakers like a true ...
Niklas well, he doesn't care about beakers one by one, but he certainly cares when they start numbering in the hundreds
Provolution what about 140?
Provolution i mean
Provolution why risk your borders
Provolution archery could easily be fit in
Niklas huh?
Niklas sorry, but haven't we been through this enough times by now?
Niklas 140 beakers is a significant number of turns to research, and it would mean we would be delaying AH longer than we are comfortable doing, so it would not be only 140 beakers
Niklas or 148 as it may be
Niklas and yes, it is a slight risk to go without a solid defense that far
Niklas but it's a risk we are willing to gain for the huge boost to both our teams that the beeline would yeild
Niklas *yield
Niklas and *willing to take
Provolution ok
Niklas pardon the question, but do the elements on your team pushing for sailing even realize what a huge boost HR before turn 70 would actually mean?
Provolution you should post this as an ultimatum
Niklas I'm just curious how the discussion goes
Niklas I was really under the impression that ultimatums don't go well with your team
Provolution this will be before turn 70
Provolution ok, sorry not ultimatum
Provolution i agree with you
Niklas there is no way we could have Monarchy before turn 70 if we had to deviate to pick up the other techs mentioned
Provolution just need to pitch it
Provolution but we disagree on the prereq thing
Provolution its beaker to beaker they say
Niklas prereq?
Provolution the method of calculating research costs
Niklas they don't think the prereq modifiers should be included??
Niklas seriously, you know as well as I do that that's totally ridiculous
Niklas the ostensible tech costs mean nothing at all if prereq modifiers aren't taken into account
Niklas so yes, it's beaker to beaker - *invested* beaker to *invested* beaker
Provolution ok
Niklas don't you agree with that?
Provolution that needs to be pitched too
Niklas personally I mean
Provolution personally yes
Niklas then surely you would know how to explain it?
Niklas this is really rather inconsequential though, very few techs apart from the early game will ever have anything other than a 1.2 prereq modifier
Niklas and it will obviously cut both ways
Niklas so I'm not sure why anyone would even bother arguing about it, since adherence to minute advantage should be discouraged anyway
Niklas feel free to quote me on that
Provolution ok
Provolution
Provolution but the passage seems to be handled
Provolution so that seems to be part of the deal (but only sail when treaty is signed)
Niklas certainly
Provolution we talk turn 48 or 49
Provolution before turn 50
Niklas we're still hoping for 48, if we can only agree not to pass the save on prematurely
Provolution well, we had too
Niklas no, you truly didn't have to
Provolution since there was a milestone we had to handle before a discussion
Niklas it is perfectly possible to do all parts of the turn and just not press end turn
Niklas the end turn can be pressed at a much later point, or even not at all
Provolution ok, I will do my best to secure the beeline
Niklas that's what we have done every time we hold the save
Provolution but we would like to know about techs after the trade
Provolution and the oracle plan
Niklas we would be happy to start discussing techs after the beeline
Niklas we will try to come to a conclusion on that too
Provolution that will help the negotiation here
Niklas again, does your team have any specific ideas regarding the Oracle?
Provolution given your defense needs
Provolution you should probably do the oracle right away
Provolution and get archers in time for the incursio
Provolution incursion
Provolution metal casting would be ideal to both teams
Niklas I'm not sure I agree
Niklas personally I'm pushing for Feudalism
Provolution fair enough
Niklas Longbows for barb defense, and leading to Civil Service, and also by far the most expensive tech we could get at that time
Niklas 700 base beakers, compared to 400 (iirc) for MC
Niklas 450 actually, but still
Provolution ok, given your move for feudalism, what will be the deal regarding that
Niklas but those are just my own thoughts, no guarantees what the team will decide
Niklas well, Feudalism requires Writing and Monarchy so obviously we would need those
Niklas preferably we would complete the oracle same turn we finish Monarchy
Niklas if that's even possible
Provolution so early writing for you is part of your defense plan, in other words
Niklas well, that's more for the longer term defense, but yes
Provolution not that long term
Niklas indeed, you are right
Provolution if you can build it around turn 70
Niklas but as I said, it's not guaranteed we can have it that early, though I will try to push for that
Provolution what is your view on a trade of feudalism to us?
Niklas our view would be that the tech is yours as well, if we are to have a tech alliance then we should have a tech alliance
Niklas but again, we would ask a small compensation for the investment of hammers, though nothing comparable to the cost of Feudalism
Provolution what you are saying now is really important
Provolution and can make the difference for the beeline
Niklas probably more along the lines of 100-150 beakers lower research over the next mutual advancement period
Niklas since we would spend more on hammers than on beakers
Niklas let it be known to your team then that we will share Feudalism (or whichever tech we decide on) with you the moment we receive it
Provolution ok, try to win your people for that plan
Provolution and I think we are much closer to a beeline
Provolution otherwise, people would not understand why you want early writing
Niklas understood
Provolution this is basically a method for leaping directly to 2 civics plus longbowmen
Provolution jumping ahead of the archery generation
Niklas though Currency, our third option, would require Alphabet too
Provolution indeed
Niklas but I will definitely push for Feudalism
Provolution well, if we accomodate our research path for theat
Provolution that
Provolution we need an Oracle provision
Niklas obviously
Provolution hi
Provolution good news
Provolution we are preparing a counter offer here, very close to yours
Niklas ok, how soon?
Provolution today we will have the counteroffer
Niklas I was highly surprised to see you had played already
Provolution we had too
Provolution but we are close to a conclusion
Niklas had to?
Provolution there was a scout movement of big importance, that was impacted by a poll
Provolution but you will be let through before writing
Provolution so no worries
Niklas well, preferably we would like to be let through *this* turn, so every turn counts
Provolution there will be one more tech, as it seems
Provolution to let you know
Niklas and obviously you could play but not press end turn, so what's the rush?
Provolution one small tech
Niklas small tech?
Provolution sailing is of big priority to us
Niklas will you have alphabet before turn 70?
Provolution but writing, then sailing then alpha
Provolution yes
Niklas before turn 65 too?
Provolution need to check that out
Provolution but certainly before t70
Niklas hmm, I really hope that's enough
Provolution a little bit above 65
Provolution but not by much
Provolution remember, we research faster as we grow
Niklas surely you would have accurate predictions for that already?
Provolution just about
Provolution likely 67-69 turns
Provolution depending on growth and MMing
Niklas I'm sorry, but I just don't think we will be able to agree to that
Niklas I guess I have the necessary clearance to tell you that no, we do not have any easily accessibly Copper
Provolution what is your plans for Oracle?
Provolution you noticed Saturn got 3 cities too?
Niklas barbarian axes will appear on turn 66, and we will need to research Archery *after* we receive Hunting and AH from you
Niklas so if we receive these techs from you on turn 69, that's certainly going to be too late
Provolution ok
Provolution but what is your oracle plan?
Niklas you know the tech tree as well as I do, so I guess there's no point not saying
Niklas there are three techs we discuss - Metal Casting, Currency and Feudalism
Provolution ok
Provolution I can see all of these merit a consideration
Niklas does your team have a preference?
Provolution this map is real big
Provolution so productivity (citywise) is essential
Provolution I know you got a lot of ocean tiles in your capital
Niklas so is decent barb defense
Niklas I'm not sure where you've gotten that idea really
Provolution so I can understand colossus is a very good wonder for you
Niklas I think we are quite equivalent in terms of sea tiles in the capital
Provolution you got 19 land tiles, we got 23
Provolution so we get slightly more land
Provolution i know that from settings
Niklas I must question those numbers
Niklas we surely do *not* have 19 land tiles
Provolution 1 % landmass, we got 1.21 %
Provolution according to settings
Provolution anyhow. metal casting I guess would impact us all the most
Niklas checking the game, indeed we do *not* have 19 land tiles
Niklas so I'm not sure how those numbers are gotten actually
Provolution what do you think about this trade: Writing/Sailing for Meditation/Priesthood/Masonry ?
Provolution gives you 10 beakers more
Provolution and we need sailing for many reasons
Niklas minute advantage is not really a question, that's rather irrelevant
Niklas you know the reasons already, we really can't agree to any trade that will include a delay of alphabet
Niklas it doesn't matter how much you proclaim the virtues of Sailing, which we do not in any way deny
Niklas it won't help us
Provolution ok, we made a test game, and barbs showed up later than turn 70
Niklas I realize you're a salesperson, but we won't buy something that might be a risk to us
Provolution i know
Niklas barbs show up depending on when the teams research BW
Niklas all teams had BW very early in this game, so we know *accurately* that barb axes *will* appear on turn 66
Provolution so, what is the latest we can have alphabet ready ?
Niklas I believe turn 63-65 would be doable, we (or you) obviously need a few turns to research Archery too
Niklas and the axes won't spawn right outside the gate, so turn 70 is probably when we would need completed archers
Provolution ok
Provolution what if you replaced masonry for archery
Provolution we havent got archery either
Niklas replaced how?
Provolution archery/meditation/priesthood for writing/sailng
Provolution you probably need hunting anyways
Niklas yes, that's the point
Niklas if we delay alphabet, we would have to research hunting and archery ourselves, as well as AH since we can't wait for it that long
Niklas I'm sure I've told you before
Provolution but sailing overlaps archery in time
Provolution so its quite doable
Niklas it is doable *if* we research hunting+archery+AH ourselves
Niklas which would obviously cost several hundred beakers unnecessarily
Niklas and would delay our path to monarchy, and yours obviously, by a substantial amount of time
Niklas and there's no way you're going to sell me the idea that sailing is even one fifth as important as monarchy to either team
Provolution let you know
Niklas I realize you probably have towns that are connected only by river, that would have to wait for connection and trade routes
Provolution we scrapped poly
Niklas you sound as if that is a sacrifice, when obviously you are the better off for it
Provolution for me, not a sacrifice
Niklas even if not everyone on your team sees that
Provolution i stated it as a fact
Provolution not as a sacrifice
Niklas sure
Niklas I mean no offense
Provolution
Provolution i kniw
Provolution know
Provolution just checked research costs for hunting-archery-ah
Niklas it just sounds to me like you are trying to tell me it's ok that you research Sailing since there's a lot of other silly stuff you *aren't* doing
Niklas hunting = 59, archery = 89, AH = 149
Provolution yes
Provolution and I guess you are 1 turn into priesthood
Niklas yes
Provolution 89 that too
Provolution so you are 3 turns away from that
Niklas there's no question that we could reach Archery in time if we research it ourselves
Provolution I think archery is a good insurance
Provolution and we need it too
Niklas it is, but it is also a complete waste of a wonderful opportunity for early trade
Provolution not a complete waste
Provolution this is only 3 turns more or so
Niklas 3 turns???!?
Niklas you're telling me you expect us to research over 250 beakers in 3 turns??
Provolution well, sailing helps us a lot, and we do not have the expansive trait
Provolution so our workers are slower
Provolution we need sailing to connect coastal cities
Niklas sure, a turn or two
Niklas so would we, but we are happy to wait, since early connection is far less important than early monarchy
Niklas or early protection for that matter
Provolution I just see you can do hunting/archery in the same period we do sailing
Niklas seriously, how many extra beakers do you expect to gain by early sailing?
Niklas let's count high, let's say 5 per turn
Niklas you're never going to reach that number, but let's count with it
Niklas how many beakers do we lose on doing double reseach?
Provolution we consider the Great Lighthouse too
Niklas ah, that would explain the wish for Masonry
Niklas I understand, but again, there is no way that any one other team would really beat an alliance to it
Niklas and I would be *very* surprised if you're saying you want to start the GLH before turn 70 anyway
Niklas I have to be honest with you
Niklas what this all sounds like to me is that your team is interested first and foremost in advancing your own nation domestically, and might cooperate if it suits your plans
Niklas whereas to our team, cooperation comes foremost, and we are willing to postpone all domestic improvement, apart from our immediate needs for defense, to ensure that cooperation works smoothely
Provolution I think we can omit sailing, if we can talk about guarantees after the main trade
Niklas there is no one tech that we are aiming for that would not equally benefit both teams, and we do not even look at the tech tree without considering what techs would benefit our partners
Niklas what guarantees would that be?
Provolution CoL run for us, and a lock-in for Oracle tech
Niklas we will most definitely agree to the first
Provolution and we give you passage before writing (turn 48 or 49)
Provolution the people that want to delay you are down to 2 people
Niklas "and a lock-in for Oracle tech", what does this mean exactly?
Provolution so they are marginalized
Provolution that we know your proposed tech for Oracle
Provolution because that would influence our tech priorites
Niklas care to tell me how you are thinking on the matter?
Niklas btw, we've had a few grumpy comments in our forum about how "respectful and cooperative" it is of you to play the save without pausing
Niklas not a good way to foster good sentiments towards you I'm afraid
Provolution oh sorry for that
Provolution but we have agreed to the 98 % of the deal
Provolution and we removed the internal hurdles
Niklas yes, but you know that what you consider a "marginal" change to the treaty can obviously be make or break for us
Provolution I am not seeking brinkmanship
Niklas and there is nothing that guarantees that this will be settled within the next 24 hours, or even 72, so pausing the game would be very much appreciated
Niklas brinkmanship?
Niklas sorry, I don't know that word
Provolution that means, we are not pushing any limit
Provolution we can squeeze the poll to 24 now
Provolution if we can agree on three main items
Niklas I'm glad to hear, but what if the poll result is negative?
Niklas there are strong reasons still to slow down the game, so we would very much appreciate if you will do that from now
Niklas on
Niklas until the treaty is signed and sealed, no less
Provolution ok, fair enough
Provolution but there are only 3 items now
Provolution your problem with sailing
Provolution and how to handle Oracle
Provolution and the barb issue
Niklas point 1 and 3 are in our eyes the same
Niklas and as for the Oracle, we truly are not decided yet, there are factions pushing for different directions within our team too
Niklas so knowing how you feel on the matter would help a great deal
Provolution if we are to set aside Sailing, since Oracle would obviously have to be produced very quickly
Provolution we would like to know of a follow up deal including the gains from the Oracle
Niklas oh - I thought our treaty proposal made that clear already
Niklas any follow up deal, which we are dedicated to, will definitely include the gains from the Oracle, whatever tech that may be
Provolution you learnt two words already, motorcade and brinkmanship
Niklas if we are the ones to build the Oracle, we only ask for a small compensation for the invested hammers, such as you taking a slightly higher research load, but no compensation for the tech itself
Provolution ok
Provolution I think a statement on the barb threat would help
Niklas how do you envision that?
Provolution that you have estimated the 66 turn problem
Niklas and I thought we had included one already
Provolution it was a very long text
Provolution maybe I should highlight it
Niklas but in your own words, you do not have the memory of a goldfish, and like to receive long texts
Provolution I know
Provolution but this is part of a bigger discussion
Niklas The reason we are pushing for a beeline for Alphabet and Monarchy is that we are working against time. We have a direct need for several techs from you, for the defense of our homeland. It is not long until the less civilized people of this world figure out how to make axes {turn 65-70 or so}, [...]"
Niklas directly cut from the text you received
Provolution you got any happiness resources at all?
Niklas not in the absolute vicinity
Niklas why?
Provolution then I read your very imminent need for monarchy
Niklas we would have considered that need imminent regardless
Niklas but yes, it surely factors in
Provolution but AH does not give you more defense
Provolution I mean
Provolution it is not a certainty you get a horse
Provolution archery is your only real security
Niklas indeed, but delaying AH is bad due primarily to domestic matters
Provolution there you go, you have domestic interests too
Niklas we have two towns with AH resources that need improving
Niklas yes, we do, but as I've noted we are happy to postpone them until the beeline is complete
Niklas whereas if we hadn't met you, or if no deal would be possible, we would and could not delay these techs until after monarchy
Niklas so yes, of course we have needs, but none stronger than the needs of cooperation
Provolution when is your target date for the oracle?
Niklas or rather, there are no single domestic gains we could make that would not be diminished by the gains made from an early trade
Niklas I'm not completely sure actually, but I believe turn 70 has been discussed as some sort of lower limit on when we could practically have it
Niklas and obviously we would want the relevant prerequisites to whatever follow-up tech we want to take with it
Provolution obviously we got rivers and cottages coming up
Provolution so our research pace is actually quite good
Niklas and you are financial, so it will be slightly higher than ours initially
Provolution and sailing allows us to work the water tiles
Niklas um, *fishing* allows you to work the water tiles already
Provolution this is why sailing is not as bad as you may think in terms of time
Provolution but the lighthouse allows for 1 more food
Provolution we may even build a library to get to alphabet quicker
Niklas it does, but it also costs quite a bit to set up, and at the small size you are at there is no point in working coast over a riverside cottage
Niklas I would assume you do, of course
Provolution if we can squeeze in sailing and beat the barb deadline, its quite doable
Niklas it could be, though I would really hate to work the deadline like that
Niklas what we are discussing here is an absolute bare minimum of what we need for defense
Provolution archery ?
Niklas if there is any chance we could have the prerequisites for archery earlier, so we could start building archers earlier, then of course we would prefer that
Niklas I mean minimum in terms of actual units built, not just techs needed
Niklas I also hope you realize that you and I are both in the same position
Niklas I'm trying to be quite, um, moderate here, while there are people on the team that would be far more, um, upset by your wishes to deviate
Niklas and the general sentiment would be that cooperation would "obviously" not be your primary goal at all
Provolution ok fair enough
Provolution we may need to strive for the beeline
Niklas that would definitely make cooperation *much* easier
Niklas if you want any kind of ammunition for why beelining is the better idea, apart from this chatlog, then I would be happy to expound on our thoughts
Provolution I know Oyzar is really really beeline oriented
Provolution and count beakers like a true ...
Niklas well, he doesn't care about beakers one by one, but he certainly cares when they start numbering in the hundreds
Provolution what about 140?
Provolution i mean
Provolution why risk your borders
Provolution archery could easily be fit in
Niklas huh?
Niklas sorry, but haven't we been through this enough times by now?
Niklas 140 beakers is a significant number of turns to research, and it would mean we would be delaying AH longer than we are comfortable doing, so it would not be only 140 beakers
Niklas or 148 as it may be
Niklas and yes, it is a slight risk to go without a solid defense that far
Niklas but it's a risk we are willing to gain for the huge boost to both our teams that the beeline would yeild
Niklas *yield
Niklas and *willing to take
Provolution ok
Niklas pardon the question, but do the elements on your team pushing for sailing even realize what a huge boost HR before turn 70 would actually mean?
Provolution you should post this as an ultimatum
Niklas I'm just curious how the discussion goes
Niklas I was really under the impression that ultimatums don't go well with your team
Provolution this will be before turn 70
Provolution ok, sorry not ultimatum
Provolution i agree with you
Niklas there is no way we could have Monarchy before turn 70 if we had to deviate to pick up the other techs mentioned
Provolution just need to pitch it
Provolution but we disagree on the prereq thing
Provolution its beaker to beaker they say
Niklas prereq?
Provolution the method of calculating research costs
Niklas they don't think the prereq modifiers should be included??
Niklas seriously, you know as well as I do that that's totally ridiculous
Niklas the ostensible tech costs mean nothing at all if prereq modifiers aren't taken into account
Niklas so yes, it's beaker to beaker - *invested* beaker to *invested* beaker
Provolution ok
Niklas don't you agree with that?
Provolution that needs to be pitched too
Niklas personally I mean
Provolution personally yes
Niklas then surely you would know how to explain it?
Niklas this is really rather inconsequential though, very few techs apart from the early game will ever have anything other than a 1.2 prereq modifier
Niklas and it will obviously cut both ways
Niklas so I'm not sure why anyone would even bother arguing about it, since adherence to minute advantage should be discouraged anyway
Niklas feel free to quote me on that
Provolution ok
Provolution
Provolution but the passage seems to be handled
Provolution so that seems to be part of the deal (but only sail when treaty is signed)
Niklas certainly
Provolution we talk turn 48 or 49
Provolution before turn 50
Niklas we're still hoping for 48, if we can only agree not to pass the save on prematurely
Provolution well, we had too
Niklas no, you truly didn't have to
Provolution since there was a milestone we had to handle before a discussion
Niklas it is perfectly possible to do all parts of the turn and just not press end turn
Niklas the end turn can be pressed at a much later point, or even not at all
Provolution ok, I will do my best to secure the beeline
Niklas that's what we have done every time we hold the save
Provolution but we would like to know about techs after the trade
Provolution and the oracle plan
Niklas we would be happy to start discussing techs after the beeline
Niklas we will try to come to a conclusion on that too
Provolution that will help the negotiation here
Niklas again, does your team have any specific ideas regarding the Oracle?
Provolution given your defense needs
Provolution you should probably do the oracle right away
Provolution and get archers in time for the incursio
Provolution incursion
Provolution metal casting would be ideal to both teams
Niklas I'm not sure I agree
Niklas personally I'm pushing for Feudalism
Provolution fair enough
Niklas Longbows for barb defense, and leading to Civil Service, and also by far the most expensive tech we could get at that time
Niklas 700 base beakers, compared to 400 (iirc) for MC
Niklas 450 actually, but still
Provolution ok, given your move for feudalism, what will be the deal regarding that
Niklas but those are just my own thoughts, no guarantees what the team will decide
Niklas well, Feudalism requires Writing and Monarchy so obviously we would need those
Niklas preferably we would complete the oracle same turn we finish Monarchy
Niklas if that's even possible
Provolution so early writing for you is part of your defense plan, in other words
Niklas well, that's more for the longer term defense, but yes
Provolution not that long term
Niklas indeed, you are right
Provolution if you can build it around turn 70
Niklas but as I said, it's not guaranteed we can have it that early, though I will try to push for that
Provolution what is your view on a trade of feudalism to us?
Niklas our view would be that the tech is yours as well, if we are to have a tech alliance then we should have a tech alliance
Niklas but again, we would ask a small compensation for the investment of hammers, though nothing comparable to the cost of Feudalism
Provolution what you are saying now is really important
Provolution and can make the difference for the beeline
Niklas probably more along the lines of 100-150 beakers lower research over the next mutual advancement period
Niklas since we would spend more on hammers than on beakers
Niklas let it be known to your team then that we will share Feudalism (or whichever tech we decide on) with you the moment we receive it
Provolution ok, try to win your people for that plan
Provolution and I think we are much closer to a beeline
Provolution otherwise, people would not understand why you want early writing
Niklas understood
Provolution this is basically a method for leaping directly to 2 civics plus longbowmen
Provolution jumping ahead of the archery generation
Niklas though Currency, our third option, would require Alphabet too
Provolution indeed
Niklas but I will definitely push for Feudalism
Provolution well, if we accomodate our research path for theat
Provolution that
Provolution we need an Oracle provision
Niklas obviously
).
... no need to bash people... (I am sure it wasn't the case)
