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Embaixada da Saturn

Discussion in 'Team Cavaleiros' started by oyzar, Apr 23, 2009.

  1. oyzar

    oyzar Have quit civ/forums

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    We have finally met saturn. They are playing as Darius of persia. As we will begin negotiations with them in this troubled diplomatic situation i figured it would be best if they had their own thread.

    Seems like their main people to talk to are lord and joshua. Their msn are unknownman102@hotmail.com and joshua368@gmail.com .

    We don't have an official diplomat for dealing with them
     
  2. oyzar

    oyzar Have quit civ/forums

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    Reserved for treaties and deals.
     
  3. oyzar

    oyzar Have quit civ/forums

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    Here is a screenshot of saturn's situation. They are ahead of sancta in tech, but behind in expansion.
     
  4. oyzar

    oyzar Have quit civ/forums

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    Unfortunatly they will soon discover that the world is not as grim as they have feared...
     
  5. oyzar

    oyzar Have quit civ/forums

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    Really now? Anyways this make currency seem way more attractive no matter what happens with the barb city and with sancta...

    (oh and i should post this in a single post instead of a lot of different ones at some point eh?).

    Spoiler :
    oyzar sa (07:40):
    do your team have a diplomat?
    i see joshua sent a pm
    can i have his msn too?
    Lord sa (07:40):
    usually Joshua and me
    Lord sa (07:41):
    joshua368@gmail.com
    oyzar sa (07:43):
    ok, i'll see you around i guess
    Lord sa (07:43):
    I'll be around in a few hours
    cya

    oyzar sier (10:25):
    oh and our team email teamcavaleiros@gmail.com
    Lord sier (10:25):
    okay
    oyzar sier (10:27):
    so how is the game going so far for you guys?
    Lord sier (10:27):
    slowly, obviously
    we didn't have the advantage of meeting other teams to make tech alliances early on
    oyzar sier (10:27):
    meeting the others is a choice
    just like everything else
    Lord sier (10:28):
    wasn't a choice for us
    oyzar sier (10:28):
    sure it was
    Lord sier (10:28):
    every scout we sent died
    oyzar sier (10:28):
    ever heard of workboats?
    oyzar sier (10:29):
    i am really surprised that no other team thought about sending out workboats
    Lord sier (10:29):
    our capital is so food-poor we couldn't afford it early on
    but yes, we should have sent one out I guess
    oyzar sier (10:29):
    well what is "early on" ?
    oyzar sier (10:30):
    and yeah the starts didn't seem particulary balanced...
    Lord sier (10:30):
    it's *still* really bad
    we had to take risks to try to improve our happiness situation
    oyzar sier (10:30):
    "risks?"
    Lord sier (10:30):
    we missed the oracle by a couple of turns, and missed confucianism by 1 turn
    Lord sier (10:31):
    very unlucky
    oyzar sier (10:31):
    there is one tech that involves zero risk for happiness you know...
    Lord sier (10:31):
    yes, obviously
    we wanted to do one better
    and the turn order screwed us...
    oyzar sier (10:32):
    how is +1 happiness from religion better than +infinite happiness from monarchy?
    Lord sier (10:32):
    in addition, it's better
    oyzar sier (10:32):
    better?
    Lord sier (10:32):
    anyway, I was outvoted
    I don't run the team you know
    oyzar sier (10:33):
    yeah i know
    Lord sier (10:35):
    I mean religion + monarchy gives more easy happiness than just monarchy
    oyzar sier (10:35):
    not more, but it doesn't cost 15 hammers per
    oyzar sier (10:36):
    it costs 30 instead(or autospread)
    and of course you don't pay upkeep
    Lord sier (10:37):
    it's an extra layer on top
    oyzar sier (10:37):
    the religions were around quite late
    Lord sier (10:37):
    not huge, but nice
    our research has never been great either
    oyzar sier (10:38):
    you are fin working seafood, it haven't been worst either
    Lord sier (10:38):
    no, but it's been down there
    and with everyone else trading early on...
    Lord sier (10:39):
    it was inevitable we'd get into a rut
    oyzar sier (10:40):
    rut?
    Lord sier (10:40):
    well, when 3/5 other teams are something like 8 techs ahead, that's effectively a rut for the other 2 teams.
    oyzar sier (10:41):
    would you mind giving open borders so our workboat can pass through btw?
    Lord sier (10:41):
    should be fine, will check in the forums
    oyzar sier (10:43):
    the pen is mightier than the coin, or something like that...
    Lord sier (10:44):
    eh?
    oyzar sier (10:44):
    (just a joke on the fact that we are ahead of you in tech despite the fact that you are fin and we are not)
    Lord sier (10:47):
    well, that's to do with meeting people early rather than any particular diplomatic skill I think... most people will trade with someone else if they've met them and aren't preparing for war or anything.
    but yes, tech trading is certainly more powerful than any trait
    oyzar sier (10:48):
    you've said you've lost multiple scouting units though, was it really better to build those than a workboat?
    Lord sier (10:49):
    we didn't build them
    I believe we got a couple of huts
    or maybe I'm confusing another game
    are huts on?
    oyzar sier (10:50):
    nope
    Lord sier (10:50):
    okay, would have been warriors then
    we didn't know at the time about the quantity of barbs that would appear near us
    Lord sier (10:51):
    and we could just as easily have chanced a barb galley appearing, then any work boats would have been screwed
    oyzar sier (10:51):
    barb galleys doesn't apear before barbs have sailing
    thats just game mechanics
    oyzar sier (10:52):
    and the amount of barbs that would spawn could be read on turn 1
    Lord sier (10:52):
    yes, how many but not where
    oyzar sier (10:52):
    that's luck
    Lord sier (10:52):
    or bad luck
    oyzar sier (10:53):
    luck can be good or bad
    Lord sier (10:53):
    ours was bad
    oyzar sier (10:54):
    we had quite bad luck with barbs in the beging as well actually
    Lord sier (10:54):
    how so?
    oyzar sier (10:54):
    there are only so many ways to have bad luck with barbs
    Lord sier (10:55):
    I meant if units actually died...
    oyzar sier (10:55):
    i would divulge more if i was playing this game alone
    Lord sier (10:56):
    you always say that, and yet I've shared similar information...
    oyzar sier (10:56):
    you shared the very same information in the team discussion thread
    oyzar sier (10:57):
    but yes we lost units too...
    quite hard to have bad luck without losing units
    Lord sier (10:58):
    well, it could be just having to delay unit movements, but yes - usually units lost
    oyzar sier (10:58):
    i would be more happy if barbs were off
    oyzar sier (11:00):
    did you say anything while i was offline?
    Lord sier (11:00):
    don't think so...
    oyzar sier (11:01):
    can you divulge any information about what you are researching or what plans you have?
    Lord sier (11:02):
    if you can do similarly
    oyzar sier (11:02):
    right now you have very little to trade us
    Lord sier (11:02):
    obviously, yeah...
    Hunting + Archery is it
    I presume you're holding off so you can build Warriors
    oyzar sier (11:03):
    warriors are the second best unit in civ
    only quechas are better
     
  6. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Seriously? Afraid of barb galleys in a human game before everyone gets sailing?
     
  7. oyzar

    oyzar Have quit civ/forums

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    I seriously doubt they thought that far... Someone would know that there were little to no chance of barb galleys apearing so soon...
     
  8. Renata

    Renata homicidal jungle cat GOTM Staff

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    A bit forceful there, oyzar. Not exactly the best way to make friends, to start in right off the bat on all the ways they've screwed up.
     
  9. oyzar

    oyzar Have quit civ/forums

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    They obviously don't have sailing from the above screenshot as such having traderoutes with others is rather hard...
     
  10. KingMorgan

    KingMorgan Deity

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    Got to 2nd Renata, Diplomacy should be diplomatic.

    Saturn might make a good 3rd partner, MS seem to be out of it unless they are double dealing us with Kaz.
     
  11. Renata

    Renata homicidal jungle cat GOTM Staff

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    I spoke with Joshua just now, will post the log later. I am very sleepy and out of it right now (probably more than evident in the log), hence didn't try to accomplish much. Joshua is saying most of the right things without really giving anything away that we don't already know.

    We will need a formal introduction letter, and it would be nice if we could include some sort of minor treaty to go with it. Non-aggression for 50 turns, something like that? With open borders? It's mostly a formality, of course, but signatures are always usually nice.

    I'll write the letter if I can get some input on what should go in it first.
     
  12. Renata

    Renata homicidal jungle cat GOTM Staff

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    Here's my conversation with Joshua. To sum up: we need a letter of introduction; they're teching feudalism; and no-one has bothered to tell them anything about anything, even basic geography, so that could be one thing we could make use of diplomatically that doesn't require immediate consideration of techs or relations with other teams.

    Please critique, if you're so inclined, because I'm not a natural at this sort of thing, and I was incredibly sleepy at the time to boot. I wasn't sure what I was trying to accomplish, and it felt very awkward. Joshua came across very neutral to me -- none of the eagerness SANCTA has sometimes displayed, but no hostility either.

    Spoiler :
    Session Start (RenataK2@live.com:Joshua): Thu Apr 23 15:14:29 2009
    [15:14] Nancy: hello again
    [15:14] Joshua: hello
    [15:14] Joshua: hang on a minute
    [15:14] Nancy: ok
    [15:18] Joshua: ok
    [15:19] Nancy: So again, I offer you greetings from the Cavaleiros people. We are hoping to learn more about you.
    [15:19] Joshua: Well, we are... behind.
    [15:19] Joshua: Not sure if there is much more to say. :p
    [15:20] Joshua: A lot of floodplains, so we have good commerce but pretty poor production
    [15:20] Nancy: You have contact with all of the other teams now, is that correct?
    [15:20] Joshua: Everyone but SANCTA
    [15:20] Nancy: You do seem to be keeping up a decent research pace.
    [15:20] Nancy: Oh, that's right.
    [15:20] Joshua: Seven or so techs behind isn't "keeping up" :)
    [15:21] Joshua: We are interested in making any potential trades, though I'm guessing you don't have hunting/archery for warriors so you don't want those now.
    [15:21] Nancy: Pace and total techs aren't exacrly the same thing. :)
    [15:22] Nancy: That's correct.
    [15:22] Joshua: Yeah we haven't made a single tech trade as of yet
    [15:22] Joshua: working on it
    [15:22] Joshua: We're currently researching Feudalism, it's over a dozen turns away but if you're interested in it...
    [15:22] Nancy: Well, how do you see us fitting into your plans, if at all?
    [15:23] Nancy: Ok, thanks for letting us know.
    [15:23] Nancy: We have research off, I believe.
    [15:23] Joshua: You are just as advanced as Kaz pretty much (just no mono or hunting)
    [15:23] Nancy: We're basically on par, yes.
    [15:24] Joshua: So our plans pretty much consist of teching things you do not have and agreeing on a trade beforehand
    [15:24] Nancy: Have you been pursuing such plans with Kaz and MS also? No luck so far?
    [15:25] Joshua: MS is not capable of trading yet. :p
    [15:25] Joshua: We don't know what techs that have
    [15:25] Joshua: that should hopefully open up soon
    [15:25] Joshua: We're working on terms with Kaz but don't need to go into any specifics
    [15:26] Nancy: Understood.
    [15:26] Joshua: Main thing your empire needs to know about us is that we are researching Feudalism if you want to plan around that for something to offer
    [15:27] Nancy: OK.
    [15:27] Joshua: awful long writing time for two letters ;)
    [15:27] Nancy: I should probably do this another time, very sleepy.
    [15:27] Joshua: Probably post in your team forum if they didn't know what our research was already
    [15:28] Nancy: We're terrible with letters. Bunch of writers' block, I tell you.
    [15:28] Joshua: We'll let you guys make any offers
    [15:28] Joshua: Well we don't need a letter, just a potential trade
    [15:28] Joshua: It's okay if it's a few beakers in your team's favor (expecially if techs are given a bit in advance)
    [15:29] Nancy: I surely will. But I should also ask what your thoughts are on other matters, such as open borders, non-aggression pacts, and the like.
    [15:29] Joshua: Open borders are fine, a non-discussion
    [15:29] Joshua: Non agression pact is fine too since we have no idea where you are :p
    [15:30] Nancy: That's quite generous of you.
    [15:30] Joshua: Though I'd have to ask my team on that
    [15:30] Joshua: non-aggression
    [15:30] Joshua: I don't think they'd object though
    [15:30] Nancy: Well, if we sign something like that, it would surely extend past the time when we might expect to find you.
    [15:30] Nancy: sorry
    [15:30] Nancy: other way around
    [15:31] Joshua: yeah I suppose
    [15:31] Joshua: Though I'm guessing you're probably pretty far away
    [15:31] Nancy: Because of how long it took us to arrive?
    [15:32] Joshua: Eh mostly
    [15:32] Joshua: Obviously that doesn't prove anything though
    [15:32] Nancy: Depends on the geography, right? And on how diligent we were with the workboat.
    [15:33] Joshua: Yep
    [15:33] Joshua: Anyway a longterm non-aggression pact can't be too hasty
    [15:34] Joshua: It'd help to know which (if any) other civilizations you also share such pacts with
    [15:35] Nancy: In any case, even though I'm a little off right now, I can assure you that all the things I mentioned are at least potentially on the table from our side as well, and that we look forward to working with you. And certainly there is the possibility of us helping to fill some of the gaps in your knowledge; it will depend how things go.
    [15:35] Joshua: "Knowledge" being research?
    [15:36] Nancy: I have not actually had much chance to discuss matters with my team yet -- you saw the game pause, which has distracted us. I hope to have something more concrete very soon though.
    [15:36] Joshua: Or your team situation
    [15:37] Nancy: I was speaking of geography and diplomacy in this case.
    [15:38] Joshua: Yeah okay, clearing that up
    [15:38] Nancy: Okay, I'm going to sign off now, but can I have permission to post the log of this chat in our forum to get discussion going?
    [15:39] Joshua: Alright, I'll go do the same then
    [15:39] Nancy: very good :) talk to you soon. and hopefully with letters in hand
    [15:39] Joshua: okay bye
    Session Close (Joshua): Thu Apr 23 15:39:59 2009
     
  13. PurpleTurtle

    PurpleTurtle Shellshocked

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    He may have come across as neutral because he was intimidated by you. I know that seems like a stretch but reading it made me feel like you were an interviewer and he was the prospective hire. I think this is a good thing if there is anything to it. I am struck by how they are ready to think of themselves as a client state. If we deal right with them and offer them enough that they would regain a shot(even an outside chance) at winning I bet we would find them very cooperative and helpful.
     
  14. Renata

    Renata homicidal jungle cat GOTM Staff

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    Not a stretch; that's how I felt talking to him.
     
  15. Renata

    Renata homicidal jungle cat GOTM Staff

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    I found a few minutes to draw up a top-of-my-head letter for Saturn, just to try to get discussion moving. I sort of told Joshua and LP I'd have something to send today, so comments welcome, even if they're only to say "what, are you nuts, we can't possibly send anything yet!" :p

    Spoiler :
    Hail Team Saturn:

    Our emissaries have brought us the news that they have approached your shores, and we are delighted to make your acquaintance at long last! Still more are we pleased to learn that your people bear us only good will, as we do you.

    We have learned that your wise men are busy at work on the secrets of Feudalism, and we would be happy to discuss trading options further down the line. In the meantime, though, we would like to offer you a temporary treaty of non-aggression and open borders, in order that good will may be preserved, and potential misunderstandings may be avoided.

    The treaty offer reads as follows:

    ::: A pact of non-aggression, effective immediately [Turn 84], and not to be cancelled prior to the elapse of 50 game turns [Turn 134]. 20 turns notice must be given of intent to cancel; hence such notice may not be given prior to Turn 114.
    ::: An open borders agreement, effective immediately upon signing, and to be kept in effect for as long as the non-aggression pact lasts.

    In addition, we are sorry to hear that your explorers have all come to unpleasant ends and that your knowledge of our world is therefore lacking. We can certainly sympathize. We may be willing to fill in some of the gaps in your knowledge in exchange for whatever geographical information you do possess, perhaps with the understanding that any differential in the amount of information exchanged will be compensated at a later date, or perhaps for no further price, depending on how negotiations go.

    We look forward to working with you in the future.

    Yours in friendship,
    Renata dos Cavaleiros for Team Cavaleiros
     
  16. Diamondeye

    Diamondeye So Happy I Could Die

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    From that letter it's obvious to read that we have met lots of others - is that the intent?
     
  17. Renata

    Renata homicidal jungle cat GOTM Staff

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    They should know already because of the diplo screen.
     
  18. KingMorgan

    KingMorgan Deity

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    Looks good to me.
     
  19. Niklas

    Niklas Fully Functional GOTM Staff

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    Yeah, I like it. :)
     
  20. oyzar

    oyzar Have quit civ/forums

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    go go go go
     

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