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Embargo! A Restricted Trade Succession Game

Discussion in 'Civ2 - Stories & Tales' started by Prof. Garfield, Apr 13, 2008.

  1. Prof. Garfield

    Prof. Garfield Deity Supporter

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    I noticed at the end of the last succession game that there would be interest in starting a new one this year, and that there was interest in making it more difficult. I think I have come up with some rules that will make a Deity Plus Three game interesting:

    Each foreign Caravan/Freight delivery must be preceded by two domestic deliveries.

    We may only deliver one Caravan/Freight to each foreign Civ. each turn.

    We may not deliver to nations with whom we are at War or Cease-Fire.

    No ship chains.


    Any interest?
     
  2. SCG

    SCG Chieftain

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    I don't remember what changes needed to be made for games above diety (i only tried one game - a diety +5 OCC challenge that was part of an OCC series a while back, and got sidetracked and never finished it), but i'd be interested in giving it a try - maybe i can help play the part of Loki :D I enjoyed several of the succession games i used to play in.
     
  3. Magic_gorter

    Magic_gorter Deity Civ2 GOTM Staff Retired Moderator

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    I'm still interested in a succesion game...
    just let know when you want to start.
     
  4. Prof. Garfield

    Prof. Garfield Deity Supporter

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    We can start and if others want to join in they can.

    I started the game at Deity plus three on a large map with barbarian wrath and 7 civs. Standard rules. We are the Japanese and start off with warrior code.

    4000 B.C.: Built Kyoto. Set Science to 60% and Taxes to 40%. Noticed available forest and decided to do the size one settler trick. Moved settler.

    3950 B.C.: Decided to reserch alphabet. Moved settler.

    3900-3800 B.C.: Moved settler.

    3750 B.C.: Hut: 50g.

    3700 B.C.: Moved settler.

    3650 B.C.: Rushed 9 shields of the Kyoto settler production.

    3600 B.C.: Moved settler, switched Kyoto worker from forest to grassland.

    3550-3500 B.C.: Moved settler.

    3450 B.C.: Discovered alphabet, began Ceremonial Burrial. Kyoto builds settler, moved. Founded Osaka, set production to settler. Worked whale.

    3400 B.C.: Disorder in Kyoto and Osaka.

    3350-3300 B.C.: Moved settler south.

    Notes: Our treasury stands at 28 gold. We can build a city next turn and take advantage of the fruit. Future production from Kyoto should probably be sent north.

    I decided that at this stage of the game cities only need to have access to one special, because it will be a long time before they can work more. We can build cities for short term gain now, so that we have more resources to build better cities later on.

    Points to consider:
    The opportunity cost of having a settler in the field is 3 food and 1 science per turn (If a city were founded, it would produce 2 surplus food and 1 science. Add one food for support.). This makes them poor explorers.

    A warrior costs only the production of a city for the turns taken to produce the warrior (because the settler, and then the city, could have been produced that much earlier). At five turns, this comes out to 10 food and 5 science. If exploring with a warrior can save even 5 turns of finding a suitable city site with a settler, we come out ahead by 5 food, not to mention any huts that are popped along the way.

    Building a city on grassland over plains will give an important advantage once we hit monarchy, especially if such a city has access to a forest.


    P.S. SCG: I think you modify the "Game" file to make the changes. I'm pretty sure, however, that you should be able to open this game and play it without changing the rules, but not positive.
     

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  5. Till

    Till Adventurer

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    I'm tempted to join, but i haven't played anything but OOC for a while. My skills might not be up to it. I'll lurk for now.
     
  6. CharlieChuck

    CharlieChuck Prince

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    I'm still up to take part in a deity +3 game. This was probably the best way to start one, I think we would have been waiting forever otherwise.

    From what I remember, I think it needs to be played on the same version of civ by everyone that plays
     
  7. SCG

    SCG Chieftain

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    it does. MGE can open 2.42 files, but 2.42 won't open files that have been saved by MGE.

    which version did the game get saved in? I have both 2.42 and MGE (and now have ToT for that matter, but i picked that up through half.ebay to try out some of the newer scenarios people are making)
     
  8. Prof. Garfield

    Prof. Garfield Deity Supporter

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    Well, unless someone has already started playing (in which case I hope they see this first), the next person to post to say they are playing will play next. Once a few people have played and we get a firm idea of who wants to play, we can work out a playing order.

    Till, you might as well join. The most interesting games are those where you are in just a little over your head. Also, it's usually hard to make fatal mistakes in 10 or 15 turns, unless you try.

    CharlieChuck, deity plus three must be played on classic civII.
     
  9. Till

    Till Adventurer

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    I took a look at the save and marked the locations of the nearest specials, along with two suggestions for city locations (blue dots). Moving the settler to the southern blue dot would bring 4 specials into the city radius. The northern blue dot seems like the best way to make use of that unused shielded grassland NW of Osaka.

     
  10. CharlieChuck

    CharlieChuck Prince

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    As no one else has volunteered I'll play.
     
  11. CharlieChuck

    CharlieChuck Prince

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    That was quick.

    We have progressed slightly in the 10 turns, my thoughts were to build on the 4 square site as home trade will be necessary later on, it seemed sensible to try a SSC, although I know we won't build many (or any) of the wonders needed. Also get a warrior exploring asap.

    -3250 move settler sw
    -3200 EDO founded, centre of 4 square
    -3150 ...
    -3100 Kyoto size 2, use 1 entertainer, change prod to warrior (8 shields left)
    -3050 ...
    -3000 Ceremonial Burial Discovered, Monarchy not in list, so choose Bronze Working (on the way to trade and help rush building)
    -2950 ...
    -2900 Kyoto builds warrior send NE, Osaka size 2 building settler
    -2850 warrior NE, spend 13g prb settler osaka
    -2800 warrior NE, EDO size 2 building settler

    we are producing 3 science and 2 gold per turn, we have 12 beakers of 39 needed, and 19 gold in the pot.
     

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  12. SCG

    SCG Chieftain

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    I'll give it a try, unless Till wants a shot at taking a turn. Reguarding concerns of messing up - check out http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=191696 - specifically starting around post #60 with what old and slow did upon request - that game was diety +3 also :)
     
  13. SCG

    SCG Chieftain

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    first look: definitely diety+, we've got black hats - every city is using an entertainer, bringing in 2 gold, 3 science, 5 shields and only edo is bringing in net food, we have 3 techs (2 needed for monarchy), currently researching off-tech bronze working (12 beakers towards 39 needed, so 9 more turns), needed for trade. given the troubles with size 1 cities, and every city is building settlers, a comparison of luxuries may be in order. 50% lux isn't enough, but 60% will keep the cities in order with some worker arrangements. we are able to maintain production and science, but effectively trade 2 gold for 1 additional bushel of wheat in every city each turn. decision is made that since the extra wheat may allow for fewer city turns of anarchy, tax rate is set at (gulp) 0 tax 4 science, 6 luxuries for the food. Quick glance at edo implies may have a special in the black, but no one is nearby to check it out.

    2750 BC: move warrior, find hut....
    2700 BC: ponder whether or not to enter hut... ponder some more... we have 3 techs, and are at 39 beakers, another discovery would undoubtedly increase that significantly, not sure what is most likely, decide to go west, and find fish/
    2650 BC: move warrior
    2600 BC:
    2550 BC: find buffalo, PIRB in Edo
    2500 BC: we are hopelessly poor :p (#7 in wealth with 11 gp), river spotted to the east of the hut, potenial future city site.
    2450 BC: another hut spotted - next player will at least have some hut-popping decisions., PIRB in osaka
    2400 BC:
    2350 BC: Bronze Working, start code of laws, silk located
    2300 BC:

    Final Thoughts: ok, so it wasn't a spectacular turn - did a bit of exploring, ensured we got bronze working, and found a couple huts if we wish to gamble a bit. We need 60 beakers for CoL atm and are 5 beakers in. River site in range of silk looks very tempting for next city if we go there, osaka will build settlers in two turns (one gold short to complete rush, wondering if i shouldn't have done that PIRB in edo). if i'm not mistaken, a road on the shielded grassland would be able to keep Osaka in order (size 2) (once it finally gets back to that size) with the 60% luxury setting and would get more food and production, of course, my little attempt at building a food supply to reduce anarchy turns may have simply cost us 20 gold - up to the next player to decide that i guess. Not quite sure what the chinese are doing, but Beijing is size 8 already :eek:

    anyway, here's the save.
     

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  14. CharlieChuck

    CharlieChuck Prince

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    I found it very difficult to work out the best combination of food/science/production, I spent quite a while working through each one, but there was always a trade off, so in the end went for an entertainer in each. I didn't think of using the luxury rate though.

    Whether to pop huts or not is a tricky decision. Off path techs would really slow down progress to monarchy, but anything else from the hut would be very welcome. Tricky decision.
     
  15. SCG

    SCG Chieftain

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    not sure what will happen with the extra food we have now - I'm not entirely sure that three food for 2 gold is the best trade, especially since settlers will eat away at the surplus once built, and we may have a net loss of food with the entertainer at pop 1 every two turns, but I figured I'd demonstrate that it is a viable option at this level in some situations :)

    since we already had alphabet and ceremonial burial, there was only 1 tech that wouldn't be an off-path tech, other than the tech we were currently researching. Also, i was worried that if we got a barb out of the hut, all we had was a warrior on flat land, and we would have had to convert a settler, probably in osaka to an archer. Anyway, we do have two fairly close together, so if the next player wants to take a stab, we could wind up with monarchy or enough gold to rush the other settlers in the next set of turns :)
     
  16. Till

    Till Adventurer

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    One noob question: What does PIRB stand for? The entertainer in Edo can be avoided by working an ocean tile. It seems 3 trade arrows are enough to keep a size 2 city happy at the current luxury setting. That'll gain an additional food/turn for the city. Not sure if that's desireable, given how hard it is to stay on top of happiness at the moment...
    I think i'll take you up on your offer and try my hands on the save game over the weekend. Depending on how it turns out, i'll might have to claim that i intentionally emulated Old'nSlow, however... ;)
     
  17. SCG

    SCG Chieftain

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    not sure if i have partial in the right place, but it's partial incremental rush build.

    did i create an entertainer just before saving? I was playing around with the workers to try and estimate whether a road would allow a plains/grassland to be worked. I played my whole turn with the same 60% lux 40% science, and no entertainers and no disorder.

    very true, and that's what everyone has to deal with when we play with these diety+ levels

    good to hear :)
     
  18. Prof. Garfield

    Prof. Garfield Deity Supporter

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    Don't worry about the food, provided don't store up more than 20. As long as we produce settlers, extra food is always welcome because a size 2 city produces shields while a size 1 does not, so the fewer turns it takes to grow back to size 2, the better.

    Don't worry, it costs aproximately 2.5 gold for one shield, so if you gained 8 shields of extra production, it was worth it. More important, how much science did it cost? Probably not too much, if any, if the size 2 cities were able to work trade squares.

    Remember, however, when deciding how to manage happiness, that cities in disorder still produce science.
     
  19. SCG

    SCG Chieftain

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    the difference between 1 entertainer per city and 60% lux was +1 food per city and -0.67 gp per city - production and science was identical, hense my statement about 30 extra food produced at the cost of 20 gold over the duration of my turn. I didn't know about (or had read in a previous thread and forgot) that science is still produced in anarchy.

    In the case of Kyoto, with no second 2+ food space producing trade, 60% lux was a gain, as no gold was produced in either setting, and the luxuries added an extra food leaving the production, science and luxuries identical. the other two cities each lost a gold to produce the food, leaving production, luxuries and science unchanged. The problem was with the corruption. If we ever got a capitol with say 2 whales, luxuries setting would be quite useful, since it would increase both food and production, leaving gold and science and goblets unchanged.
     
  20. CharlieChuck

    CharlieChuck Prince

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    As far as I remember cities in disorder still produce Food & Science but not Shields & gold.

    In disorder the amount of trade per turn is correct on the science advisers screen, but the science shown on the Kingdon screen & trade advisors screen is wrong.

    Edit to add:

    Another method is to bring cities in and out of disorder on succesive turns, with taxes set at 40, science 60.

    From the current postion (using extra workers in the sea) on the first turn we get 4 food (edo 2), 6 science, 0 gold, 5 shields, on the second turn (we are now in disorder, and making the sea workers entertainers again) you get 1 food, 3 science, 2 gold, 0 shields. the average is 3.5food, 4.5 science, 1 gold, 2.5 shields. It's fiddly though and you have to remember each turn to change them over.
     

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