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Embassy Cavaleiros-discussion

Discussion in 'Team Mad Scientists' started by HUSch, Feb 1, 2009.

  1. HUSch

    HUSch Secret-monger

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    Espio goes other.
    You need enough Points and a agent go in a foreign city. In the next turn you can espio a tech.
    So it's allways a solitary action. But the other team knows it because the change in espio-points.
     
  2. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    I was thinking in terms of one teams puts the espionage slider high and allocates points to a enemy team, one team puts research high. The one researching gives tech in exchange for info about the enemy. Though it's unclear whether that would work in practice. :)
     
  3. Unionfield

    Unionfield Warlord

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    Eh, I'm more for espionage being just high enough so that people don't steal things from us.
     
  4. HUSch

    HUSch Secret-monger

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    against who? Should we build the Great Wall for a GS. I think that is not good possible .
     
  5. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    It's not something that can be done right now anyway. I was just listing all the types of alliances I could think of. We should look beyond the immediate negotiations and consider the possible long term relationships.
     
  6. peter grimes

    peter grimes ...

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    THE LETTER arrives!

    Spoiler :
    Greetings Mad Scientists,

    We hope this missive finds your explorers healthy and your cities
    prosperous. We would like to discuss closer cooperation, our people
    have a idea of a proposal and would like to set it out here for you.
    We believe it will benefit both our people, making us stronger and
    better equipped to face the challenges ahead.

    Our emissaries have discussed with yours the prospect of finding a
    third civilization, with which to form a strong alliance against the
    lesser peoples of this world {read: the other two civs}. With our
    solid peace treaty in hand, we are now prepared to reveal to you that
    we have already met such a potential ally; we invite you, in fact, to
    be the third full member of our alliance.

    We and this third civilization have come to an agreement to research
    as quickly as possible to alphabet and monarchy, in order to obtain
    the benefits of both at an early date. Our plans are for our two
    civilizations to pool our technologies once alphabet is in hand
    (currently estimated around turn 67-70). If you would like to join us,
    we would be willing to share all pooled techs with you, in exchange
    for polytheism and whichever additional technologies you have or will
    be reseaching at that point. Archery, sailing and iron-working are the
    three technologies which would be of most use to us in the short term.

    Ultimately we envision a three-way trading alliance, with goals
    determined for the benefit of all rather than for the short-term
    advantage of one or another of the three peoples. Our common research
    could one day lead us to another bountiful land beyond the stars, or
    to life in a world safe from the predations of the unworthy {read: the
    other two civs}. We trust that you can see the strength of such an
    arrangement. We urge you to seriously consider joining our alliance,
    as three equal and willing partners will surely outpace the rest.

    Finally, to support the progress we have made and to demonstrate the
    trust and understanding we currently enjoy, we would like to suggest
    an open borders agreement and free trade of surplus resources, as soon
    as such can be arranged {one of us has writing; we have a trade
    route}. Passage of units prior to formal open borders {by means of a
    phony war} would need to be decided on a case-by-case basis.

    Given the positive response of your emissary Peter Grimes to our
    preliminary proposals, we are drawing up a more formal treaty along
    the lines discussed above. Please let us know if you think you will be
    able to come to an agreement with us on these matters. If that seems
    likely, we will send a draft treaty for your perusal as soon as
    possible.

    Best Wishes
    Team Cavaleiros


    First impressions:
    Sounds pretty good :)
    The other interesting tidbit is that the third civ has writing :mischief:

    I'm of the opinion we should accept... but let's discuss this in depth first!
     
  7. HUSch

    HUSch Secret-monger

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    Much flowery speaking. What it says:
    Cav and another have a treaty with tech trade (one alpha, the other mona and the necessary techs).

    They offer us participation, our fee: poly and other tech(s) (archery, sailing, IW).
    My reasoning, they can't calculate (red researched)
    Alpha+ writing 448 + 179 = 627
    Mona + Priest 448 + 89 = 537
    Both have to research a tech of 448, writing is not so expensive like the number indicate, because with pottery and at least priest (perhaps additional AH) for Cav writing has research factor > 1,4 or 1,6.
    Poly (149), sailing (149), IW (299), archery 89
    equivalent would be sailing and IW for us. When they consider, they 'll know, for us archery isn't a important tech Holkan is better than archer.
    Although I agree with the treaty proposal. A quick ally is better than the hope of a better later.

    btw
    Infos about the unknown ally, they 've writing and is not SAN. They both 've copper without the push to research IW would be bigger. What for unknown res (Oil in water etc) must we have, that Sulla is the meaning the starting position is equivalent.
     
  8. topas

    topas Prince

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    The unknown third civ probably also has AH.
    (It is not explicitly mentioned.)

    Right now, their proposal looks good, but I'll sleep over it first;)

    Questions/Points that come to my mind at once:
    - Who is the third team? I don't want to sign/commit without knowing who I'm dealing with.
    - I want contact to that 3rd team. It's a really bad situation to rely on Cav in an alliance for communication.

    HUSch
    I read more like the expect whatever we can research till alpha is in. I guess Cav will be able to offer some more beakers after monarchy in one of the remaining techs...
    Sailing, IW, Poly and archery are the early techs they don't have in their pool yet.
    (And as you said: IW+Sailing = monarchy = alphabet in beaker count)


    (Concerning starting positions:
    I also can't find the point that equalizes them. All other teams started with at least one 6 food-resource, while our two food-resources are just 4 food. That is a huge disadvantage. Further we don't have copper close by while these 2 teams obviously have copper (Cav) or copper/horses (3rd team).
    Next point is surrounding lands... Cav obviously got a great flood-river near by, while we struggle with 2nd/3rd city with lack of food and jungle...
    Hoping for iron in CERN now... but this is all a different matter...)
     
  9. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    We should ask them to reveal who the other civ is and how they met. However, what map information can we reveal in return? If we've no fear of a backstab once an alliance is set, one option would be to reveal more about our location. We're allowed to describe anything, just can't use screenshots.

    Also we should ask Cav if the other team knows who we are.

    On balance: I wonder if we are (were) expected to expand in the direction of better land and move our capitol? That would be a pretty loose interpretation of "balanced". Not much to be gained by thinking about it though, gotta play what we have.
     
  10. topas

    topas Prince

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    We should get this thing settled soon, because we should adopt our research accordingly NOW ...
     
  11. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    I'm in favor of the agreement, and we should go for IW. We need it anyway...
     
  12. peter grimes

    peter grimes ...

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    Great News!!:

    Spoiler :
    Dear Mad Ones,

    we look forward to your reply to our proposal, and are eager to start
    negotiating the details of our alliance. In the mean time, we bring
    you word from our other friends, who wished to send their greetings.
    Please find attached a papyrus scroll straight from the proud people
    of Kazakhstan.

    In friendship,
    Niklas dos Cavaleiros

     
  13. peter grimes

    peter grimes ...

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    OK - if there's anyone here who thinks we should NOT join this alliance, you better speak up soon! So far there's overwhelming support for joining, and I'd like to give them an answer today.

    Also, it would be nice to send a postcard to Kazakhstan.
     
  14. peter grimes

    peter grimes ...

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    Here's the chat w/ Oyzar:

    Spoiler :
    9:26 AM
    me: got a second?

    Øystein: ye
    9:27 AM
    me: I'm pretty sure we're going to formally join the Alliance. Nobody has expressed grave reservations yet, and discussion has been going on all weekend. So this is really good news.

    Øystein: Did you guys start on your next tech yet?
    9:28 AM
    me: I'm not sure - I'm just catching up after being gone all weekend. I know that as of Friday we had 2 turns left on Hunting.
    9:29 AM
    Øystein: what are you going to research next?
    9:30 AM
    me: Im' reading the thread now. There's a lot of reasons for us to do AH before IW.

    Øystein: you can trade for AH...
    9:31 AM
    so researching it yourself is just wasted beakers

    me: Actually, on the next page of discussion it turns out the arguments for IW won! That point was raised - about trading for it :)
    9:32 AM
    We won't have it on t60, though.

    Øystein: Are you doing IW before archery and sailing?

    me: yes

    Øystein: do you guys have copper?
    9:33 AM
    me: don't need copper for our UU - the Holkan ;)

    Øystein: Sailing is a very important economic tech, if it is delayed it'll cost us a lot, any idea when you will get IW if you go for it next?

    holkan doesn't beat axes though...

    so do you have copper or not?
    9:34 AM
    me: Are you saying that you'd prefer us to do sailing before IW?
    9:35 AM
    Øystein: well depends on when you'll get it, but sailing is more important if you can get necesarry defense in time(archers or traded for AH and find horses)
    9:36 AM
    sailing is instant +1 commerce for each city if you've met someone per sea pretty much

    and if you could disclose your position more i am sure we could figure out when that would happen

    (or rivers obviously)
    9:37 AM
    me: We should be able to trade along the coast. We haven't explored the entire route yet, but I'm pretty sure that's in the near-term plans. I don't recall off the top of my head how the rivers are laid out.

    Do you have a coastal route w/ Kas yet?
    9:38 AM
    Øystein: yep

    me: That's great! That means that we'll get the route eventually as well.

    Øystein: So when will you get iw if you go for it next? 65? 70?
    9:39 AM
    How are you compared to where you met us? north and west or north and east? and roughly how far? certainly you'll have screenshots of everything in the forum so it is not like you need to login to check the overview of the land no?
    9:41 AM
    me: IW: how many beakers is it?... land: go north to the mountains, then head west. I'll look now for river routes....
    9:42 AM
    Øystein: roughly how many squares?

    me: ...checking...

    Øystein: iw is 200 base so 299 then
    9:43 AM
    299 beakers

    me: ugh.. then I think it's going to be about 12 turns or so.
    9:45 AM
    no - more like 30. btw, we're about 15 north and 15 west from you, roughly. river route negative - it's got to be coastal. Have you fully explored the area around the lake to your west?
    9:46 AM
    Øystein: nope

    15 west eh, thats quite far

    me: About how far is Kaz from you?

    Øystein: at 30 bpt it'll take ~9 turns to finish IW
    9:47 AM
    me: we need some cash first, that's why I said about 12.

    Øystein: further away than you, don't recall exactly now

    over 30 tiles i think
    9:48 AM
    me: along the same coast?... our workboat will need open borders with you to reach them.

    Øystein: If you could come up with an official letter that would make a lot of people in my team happy, that said we would probably prefer if you go sailing and archery before IW though...

    you have a workboat sailing east?
    9:49 AM
    me: The workboat completes shortly, then will head to the lake area to complete explorations. That should also open up a trade route between us. the workboat will take a minimum of 10 turns to reach you, depending on the size of the peninsula to your west.
    9:51 AM
    Øystein: 10 turns to reach us? I really doubt that
    9:52 AM
    certainly you would have to sail west before you could sail south? or have you explored along the coast already?
    9:53 AM
    me: minimum of 10. If there is no more land at all, most direct route, etc. etc. we have explored most of the coast between us already - just need to clear up that penisula a bit. Did Kaz's explorer find you, or did you guys find them?

    Øystein: We found them i guess
    9:54 AM
    me: Interesting world we're in, no?

    Øystein: yep

    I wonder where the other teams are though

    I was thinking they might be to the west of us...
    9:55 AM
    me: We wonder the same thing. Another of our explorers has been out even longer, and ventured much farther, and has yet to meet anyone. I also wonder if all teams can reach eachother over land.
    9:57 AM
    Øystein: in which direction did he go?

    me: east. What direction is Kaz from you?
    9:58 AM
    Øystein: east

    me: There are barriers to north-south exploration. But you probably know that already ;)
    9:59 AM
    Øystein: Yeah loads of mountains

    me: I play maps like these against a friend of mine - but only when we play accelerated start & always war

    Øystein: So is your capital on coast facing north or south?
    10:00 AM
    me: neither. btw - we haven't settled copper yet. Do you have it?

    Øystein: you are on coast facing west?
    10:01 AM
    me: Correct!

    brb...

    Øystein: We haven't settled copper yet no, btw are there any resources in the vincity of where your warrior near our land is(in your direction) of note?
    10:02 AM
    me: I'll check....
    10:05 AM
    I can't really tell... our screenshots don't have the resources turned on. When I go into the game later I'll check.

    gotta go for now. I'll be back later, though :)
    10:06 AM
    Øystein: cya

    when will you guys send an official letter?
    10:08 AM
    me: I'd like to do it today. It will also include a postcard that we'd like you to pass on to Kazakhstan.

    Øystein: will you hold the turn until then?
    10:09 AM
    me: I doubt it, but I don't know HUSch's schedule.
    10:10 AM
    Øystein: Well to us sailing and archery is more important to iw(and a lot cheaper)
    10:11 AM
    so it would be nice if you went for those first...


    Important items:
    - They want us to research Sailing and Archery before IW. Sailing makes sense, but I'm not sure about Archery
    - We'll be able to trade for AH
    - Kazakhstan also has a coastal start, they are east of Cav roughly 30 tiles.
    - they haven't settled copper yet either
    - I wouldn't read too much into his impressions of the geography, i had the feeling it was mostly probing to see how I would answer ;)
    - They are ansty for an official response
     
  15. peter grimes

    peter grimes ...

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    Proposed Letter of Acceptance:


    Principe Perfeito, we share your vision for the Future!

    We Mad Scientists are ready to join The Cause, enriching the Three Noble Nations: Mad Scientists, Kazakhstan, and Os Cavaleiros. We will do our part to bring a much-needed boost to our combined status in the world. Is there a formal document we should affix our seal to?... if so, please send it on over :)

    Our tech plan is to do Sailing first. We should be able to have that done in [x] turns. During that time, we will use a workboat to chart a trade route between us. In order to speed exploration and contact, please describe best route for us to meet Kazakhstan - by sea or by land?

    Glad to be aboard!
    Peter Grimes, Diplomat
    The Mad Scientists


    And the proposed postcard to send on to Kaz:
     

    Attached Files:

  16. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    I believe either they have copper but haven't connected it, or Kaz has two and is willing to trade. If they didn't, then they shouldn't dismiss IW so quickly. Plus Oyzar said "haven't settled" vs. "don't have", possibly so it wouldn't be a lie later.

    Sailing could mean they would like to build the GLight, or it could be they settled so borders don't touch and want a river connection to resources.
     
  17. HUSch

    HUSch Secret-monger

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    Sailing is for us without any reason, the same is right for archery.
    We need Iron or horses.

     
  18. peter grimes

    peter grimes ...

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    No, the workboat will start clearing the black in about 5 turns. We do, however, get +1 trade route immediately. So it's not like we don't get anything at all for it.

    Plus, we'll have it sooner than IW, which means we can trade techs sooner.
     
  19. HUSch

    HUSch Secret-monger

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    Why should the wb go south and not north, perhaps there is a water res for our next town.
    Peter
    I would want that you don't give so much infos.
     
  20. HUSch

    HUSch Secret-monger

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    We 'll need sailing when we 've a known coast way, perhaps you 'll count. when the time is.
    2.
    We want writing an d mona for sailing and IW. That for the annonce of Cav.
    Not sailing for AH.
     

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