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Embassy Cavaleiros-discussion

Discussion in 'Team Mad Scientists' started by HUSch, Feb 1, 2009.

  1. peter grimes

    peter grimes ...

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    Forgot to update here - I sent the letter about 6 hours ago :salute:

    Niklas of Os Cavaleiros caught me on Gchat - we have an appointment to discuss the future of the treaty. We'll be chatting in about 4 hours.

    Any thoughts on what we would like to get from them?
     
  2. HUSch

    HUSch Secret-monger

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    I want the mountain-chaine as frontier clear. Perhaps the possibility exist for a statement about this.

    Btw
    good that we 've a treaty now.
     
  3. peter grimes

    peter grimes ...

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    I agree with you, HUSch. I'll be sure to mention that.

    I'm chatting now.. if anyone wants to make more suggestions :)
     
  4. peter grimes

    peter grimes ...

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    OK, chat is done. There's some great stuff in here, and I hope that some of you hard-liners are satisfied with what we've learned, and with what I've told ;)

    Spoiler :
    me: I'm ready whenever you are :)

    Niklas: same here :)
    I'm correcting lab assignments, can't think of more boring work, so I'm glad for some relief ;)
    so...
    what I wanted to talk to you about is the future in general
    lemme grab some notes...
    ok, first of all, Kaz got alphabet this turn and the first trade has gone through :)

    me: That's great! I'm checking now to see how far we are from IW- it was 7 turns when I drafted the note...

    Niklas: next turn we should receive alphabet (I think), and could start trading things to you in turn
    another thing of note is that Kaz has met SANCTA

    me: I understand that KAZ is mostly due east of you... any idea where SANCTA is? Do you know how they met?

    Niklas: yes
    Kaz met them via workboat, sailing pretty much straight north from them
    so they should be quite some ways east of you
    we're guesstimating that saturn is between you and sancta

    me: We have a warrior that is far to the east (and north) of you. It's possible we'll encounter SAN before SAT.

    Niklas: maybe so
    do you have any workboats out?

    me: Yes, but heading north, not south.

    Niklas: towards where we expect saturn to be then?

    me: Possibly - if they have a coastal start, of course. It seems that everyone does. The wb left just a couple of turns ago, so it will be a long journey!

    Niklas: they definitely have a coastal start
    no team had 9 land area on the first turn ;-)

    me: Good catch ;-) Our warrior is east of the 'hub', we believe. But we didn't map anything that seemed to be a hub - the avenues may have been in the fog.

    Niklas: ok, well, we only have Kaz' word on it and they may have made a guess only
    our own warrior scouts have been less than lucky
    we've had three eaten by animals :-(

    me: Our warrior has mapped a Grand Valley, extending from us to the far east. OMG - that's terrible luck! Especially with all the forested hills!

    Niklas: yeah, two of them had great odds to win and yet didn't

    me: We are having to be very careful with our escorts - that's for certain.

    Niklas: one of them was in a forest, across a river, facing a lion
    2 vs 2 strength, and +95% bonus
    sigh

    me: That's just gratuitious!

    Niklas: good thing we had our workboat to make contact
    brb

    me: ok

    Niklas: back

    me: One thing we'd like to talk about is settlement boundaries. Can you talk about that?

    Niklas: and yeah, gratuitious indeed, that's why we voted no barbs :p

    me: lol :)

    Niklas: hmm, I'm not sure we have enough scouting knowledge to know what relevants boundaries would be
    do you feel that you risk settling "too close" to us in the near future?

    me: There are a couple of areas where either of us could wind up putting a city, that, without a formal agreement, could lead to tensions. We thought it would be smart to set up an agreement just in case.

    Niklas: we should definitely have such an agreement, what I wonder is if there is a rush, or if you could let us scout out our surroundings a bit more before it becomes relevant
    for the record we just got AH from sancta and have horses, so scouting should be a bit faster in a short while :)

    me: Yes, definitely scout first. We are not about to settle a city close to you, but, we also were taken by surprise when you settled near our warrior. We see the Mountain Ridges on either side of your new city as being a natural boundary.
    AH from SANCTA?...

    Niklas: eh, Kaz of course :)

    me: Good cover - your freudian slip is safe with me :)

    Niklas: Cimeira Loucos, named in your honor, is not very far from our capitol
    are you saying you feel that it is in what might be contested lands?
    and lol, no deals with sancta, never! :-D

    me: brb

    Niklas: sure

    me: back. No, that city is not in contested lands. but on the other side of the mountains becomes tricky. That's why we see the mountains running north / south as a natural boundary.

    Niklas: you mean the mountains west of Cimeira?

    me: Yes, those west of Cimeira.

    Niklas: ok, then I agree, we too see those mountains as a boundary and have no plans to settle past them anytime soon (and definitely not without your consent)
    but without further knowledge, it's hard to say anything for sure of course

    me: Then I think we are in perfect agreement - we also will not settle on 'your' side of the mountains. Of course you need to scout before you can swear to this sort of thing. But we're just talking about the principle. This was the sort of thing we were considering trying to write into The Treaty - but decided it was best handled between us, as it doesn't concern KAZ.

    Niklas: indeed, good call
    and I'm sure it won't lead to any disputes

    me: Do you know if you'll have any surplus resources soon?

    Niklas: I'm not sure actually
    I should check the map more often :)
    I think we have a surplus source of wheats
    but of course we need a trade route first

    me: I'm pretty sure we'll have bananas (after calendar)to trade... We'll also have extra dyes at that point. Calendar is going to open up a lot of things for us. It's one of our priorities.

    Niklas: understood
    after calendar we will have incence, and we should have wines some time after monarchy once we get around to settling them

    me: Speaking of Trade Routes... We can get one set up, but it won't be with the next settler. I'm not sure of the details, but it could be the second settler. But don't quote me! ;-)

    Niklas: oh - set up how?
    is there a natural connection somehow?

    me: See?... it all comes back to your need to scout :) If I tell you the details, can you tell me some juicy geographic tidbit we don't know?

    Niklas: hehe, I'd need to go look at our maps then

    me: I can wait... if you think it's worth it LOL

    Niklas: well, I definitely want to know how and when trade can be possible between us

    me: Trade routes are possible. I can tell you exactly how, but I'll get yelled at if I don't get anything in return :( (i'm not joking - it's happened!)

    Niklas: I'm looking at the maps now
    not sure what I could tell you that you would find interesting
    we have a workboat sailing up the coast to our west
    right now it is located pretty much due west of Cimeira
    probably 10 tiles or so west of Cimeira, I have no good overview map that shows both

    me: That's good news - your workboat may map the Lake Peninsula before we do. We'd like to know more about how to locate KAZ, actually. Did you follow a mountian valley?

    Niklas: we found them via workboat
    they are located some 30 tiles, and a handful south, of our capitol, along a fairly straight coastline

    me: I thought Oystein mentioned walking due east. I'm probably mistaken... Where is that wb now?

    Niklas: eh, 30 tiles east
    that workboat has since continued sailing north from them, they are located in the southeastern "corner" of the continent
    we've sailed northeast and are just about to round a cape pretty far north of them
    we passed their capitol on turn 48, so we've gone some way since
    we should be closing in on sancta soonish actually

    me: Now I understand why you presume SATURN to be north of us.

    Niklas: indeed
    sancta is pretty much straight north of kaz
    and I believe you are somewhere northwest of us?
    so that would put the distance between you and sancta at the longest between any of us four, and thus the logical place for the fifth team to be

    me: OK - I'll talk now :) But one thing I need to mention here: The Triple Alliance needs to have a plan in place for dealing with SANCTA. but first....
    we can set up a trade route using the river that flows from CL. It passes between the mountains, and empties into the Lake that's on the peninsula your newer wb is about to explore.

    Niklas: hmm, I can see your warrior standing on a forested hill right next to what appears to be the end of said river
    3W of CL

    me: We have a plan to get a city onto that peninsula (again, I'm not sure which settler is going there), and with a few well-placed roads, we'll have a TR

    Niklas: is that the lake you are talking about?

    me: ..checking...
    Ah,,, I'm mistaken... you're right. The tile Anaxagoras is on will require a road. That road will connect to the hill on the other side of the pass (yes - it's a pass!) and this will complete the trade route to us.

    Niklas: ok, that's good, and we can easily supply that road
    oh, wait

    me: But as I said - it's going to be some turns still.

    Niklas: which tile is Anaxagoras on?
    you've moved since this shot was taken
    is he still 3W of CL?
    or 4W?

    me: In the turn 1480 screenshots, he's on the tile 4w - on a plains hill just west of the river (which I mistakenly thought passed through the mountains)

    Niklas: right, then I'm with you, that makes sense
    on my shot he is on the forest 3W of CL, and I couldn't get it into my head how a road there would help :)

    me: Have you explored west through the pass at all?

    Niklas: no, nothing
    the tile you say Anaxagoras is on now is the farthest of our knowledge in that direction
    this is where we lost that warrior to a lion
    and our recent warrior, a bit north of Anaxagoras now, was sent northwards since we didn't move close enough to the range to see the pass
    so your information is highly valuable!

    me: So sad... you really had terrible luck. So do you want your warrior to find us, or to find Saturn?... or maybe find The Hub?
    valuable - that's why i needed to get something in return ;-)

    Niklas: I think our warrior is better of going north now, our workboat should find your lands
    haha, indeed, and I'm sorry if I don't have enough to give, but I will freely share all we know
    it's not for lack of will, but for lack of data, that we have little to share

    me: When your warrior exits the valley, and the north/south mountain ranges end, he will be in the Grand Valley that our boldest warrior has mapped. Head East, and you should find the hub.

    Niklas: ok, thank you

    me: btw - you're going to have a dynamite city north or CL. 2 gem tiles!
    *north OF cl

    Niklas: we have mapped out the land east of us a bit more, there is a larger flat area there where have the wines and wheats
    oh - that's great!
    how far north?

    me: I'm looking now...

    Niklas: we have visibility 4N of CL, our warrior will soon extend that though

    me: ok - is there a plains hill 2N of CL?

    Niklas: yes
    just outside its current borders

    me: ..with river grass on its west, and plais forest on its east?

    Niklas: indeed
    and three plains NNN, NNNW and NNNE

    me: Hmmm - That's not what I'm looking at. Most of our screenshots are highly zoomed, and spread among many threads. I'm having trouble locating enough shots to piece together where the gems are in relation. But your warrior will certainly find them. The only bad thing is they are jungle hill gems. And I don't remember a river, but I could be wrong.

    Niklas: heh, oh well, we'll find them, thanks a lot for that info :)
    we have a Played Turns thread with all the screenshots in it

    me: I prefer the setup we have on The Council... but it's fine. We're still finding our system.

    Niklas: understood

    me: Do you know where KAZ's explorer is - the one who discovered The Hub?

    Niklas: no idea I'm afraid
    I could ask them for that information, but it hasn't been relevant to us yet

    me: We'd like to know where The Hub is - and you will want to know for your warrior. A verbal description will be time consuming, though. I'll try to spend some time looking at the map tomorrow at work.

    Niklas: ok, sounds good
    I will probably have to leave very shortly

    me: That's cool - I'm glad we had a chance to do this.

    Niklas: one thing I wanted to discuss though, which has been lost in the interesting information so far, is your thoughts on tech progression past the near goals
    what techs do you see as important, and what goals do you have for your own development?

    me: I was hoping you wouldn't ask that... this conversation is spread around in a few different threads, and I've had a hard time keeping track of it. The best I can say right now is that I'll have to set up a thread in our forum to solidify our thoughts. We'll have something concrete to offer by the middle of next week, realistically.

    Niklas: hmm, well, I really think that this is something that would be best discussed *together*, through all three teams, since it will take a long time for each team to come to a decision on its own, only to find that the other teams have other ideas
    of course there needs to be a discussion in the teams, but it would be good if we could talk continuously, to feel the temperature and give input to our teams from each other

    me: Very good point. We will also have different goals depending on the alliance's goals as a unit - how do we handle SANTCA, who will build which wonders, etc. Have you had chats with KAZ on this yet?
    Oh yeah - which wonders must we DENY to Sancta, as well.

    Niklas: yes, we have, and we are keen to include you in them, since it's hard to decide on anything without knowing your thoughts
    Kaz are very keen on building the Great Library for instance, both because they themselves are philosophical, and to deny it from S/S

    me: Do we know if Saturn and Sancta have met??

    Niklas: no, we have no indication of that
    SANCTA are putting full EP towards Kaz, but that could be by choice of course, we did the same towards you when we first met you

    me: Yes, we noticed :) I have to go soon.

    Niklas: aye, me too
    I'll just give you the state of the discussion on our side now, and you can try to start a discussion in your team
    Kaz want to go for CoL next, since they want a religion
    we will probably go for Maths, in order to set us up for Civil Service after
    which requires CoL and Maths
    but Kaz are worried that Sancta will go for Literature, and will probably try to propose that you go down that route soonish, though they have yet to say so out loud
    there is of course also the inevitable question of "what's in it for us" if Kaz build GLib, but that's something we'll have to discuss further

    me: OK - I'll try to get something concrete to you about the next tech path... perhaps by the end of the weekend? Stacey and I are going skiing this weekend, but I should still have a little time. I can tell you that we have discussed Hanging Gardens (we've a pretty poor start!); but more importantly for The Alliance - The Apostolic Palace. This could open up a pretty interesting avenue for the three of us...
    OK, I have to meet Stacey now. Thanks again, and have fun grading labs!!
    bye

    Niklas: cya :)
    and I can tell you we've discussed Hanging Gardens too :)
    but we'll talk more later, have fun skiing!


    Analysis to follow in the morning :sleep:
    :
     
  5. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    If the tile counts are accurate, they confirm it's a pentagon with us at the upper left corner. And Ari has to be very close to SANCTA, it's quite surprising we haven't found them yet.
     
  6. HUSch

    HUSch Secret-monger

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    Ari goes south in zhe moment. It's the same as Anas way south 2-3 tiles width. I think it's the gap to Kaz.

    btw
    I Think the discussion with Cav was good and declare much.
     
  7. peter grimes

    peter grimes ...

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    Just wound up in another quick chat, this time with Methos aka dustem:

    Spoiler :
    dustem: hello, have you all finished your turn yet?

    me: Don't know... just got to the forums. Lemme check.

    dustem: if not, I'll log in and offer OB

    me: We have not finished. I'll advise the turnplayer to accept it.

    dustem: Ok, just offered it.


    dustem: quick question for you, have you all built any warriors in the past few turns?


    me: Why?

    dustem: we have some confusion with our demographics apparently
    understand if your not willing

    me: I think that's the sort of thing that gets me yelled at ;-) With time, I'm sure some of the hard liners will come around to a more open exchange of intel like that. I'll tell you that we haven't lost any units for a while, at least.

    dustem: np and I understand

    me: Thanks for understanding :) As I said - with time, I'm sure it will be easier for us to be more forthcoming about that sort of thing. btw - the chat last night with Niklas was received very well in our forum. Positive for both teams.

    dustem: I agree. We were very happy with it. Hopefully both teams become closer and more willing towork with each other as we progress

    me: We need to develop a plan to deal with SATURN: bring them in, leave them out, or something in between. Ideally we want to run them as a double agent: Sancta thinking Saturn is on their side, but really Saturn is just working for The Alliance. You follow?

    dustem: yes, we will be meeting sancta soon and I've been considering our options in how to deal with them

    me: The trick will be to string SATURN along long enough so that they don't have time or impulse to join SANCTA at the hip. 3 vs. 2 ain't bad, but 4 vs. 1 is even better :)

    dustem: do you all already have someone in mind for your diplomat to either sancta or saturn? I'm going to be the diplomat to sancta. I was just thinking it would be wise to work together much like we are doing now
    I like your idea of stringing them along though

    me: Good idea. I'm hoping someone other than me steps in, but I'll do it if nobody else wants to. I know most of the veteran MTDGers on SANCTA.
    I dont' know anyone at all on SATURN, but DaveShack knows Lord Parking.
    xxLord Parkin

    dustem: I know of some of the sancta people, but practically no one on saturn

    me: Saturn - the wild card! Lord Parkin's reputation is formidable.

    dustem: he's that good, huh? groan
    I take it that your team isn't necessarily happy you're talking to us?

    me: No, that's not quite right. There is reluctance to be so open about so many things so soon. But in my experience being this open rarely hurts.

    dustem: ah, my mistake
    I was going to say that you could pass around my IM contact info if they want it, I don't mind at all
    I was mistaken on what they were bothered by

    me: Good to know - I will. I dont' know if anyone will be intersted, but it can't hurt. In a couple of the earlier chats, before we saw the text of the treaty, we really didn't know how far to trust you. My default position is trust more, not less. So there was a little imbalance there. But we'll work through it just fine, I'm sure.

    dustem: I can understand. I'm more inclined to trust more too. I really like working together as a team

    me: Besides - in a team environment I've never experienced a backstab resulting from trusting too much too early. Later on, certainly! But early on, never.

    dustem: yeah, this early a backstab seems like it would hurt more then help

    me: I've got to go work for a bit ;)

    dustem: np, chat with you later.

    me: cya!


    Important notes:
    - Cav is willing to be very open with us, for the good of The Alliance
    - Methos will be point-man for SANCTA.
    - They have a MP conflict to resolve, and knowing if we built a warrior(s) would help resolve it.
    - There is, as of now, no plan in place to handle SATURN.
     
  8. HUSch

    HUSch Secret-monger

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    We 've build a holkan, perhaps that is the problem.
    peter
    What do you think about Saturn? Why should they play wrong with SAN? If you make such an info, Cav 'll mean, perhaps that is also a idea for us.
     
  9. peter grimes

    peter grimes ...

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    In the best possible scenario, Saturn will not help SANCTA, but will help us instead. And in order to get that help, we will want to pay the lowest cost possible.

    The most use that Saturn can be to us is if they have the confidence of SANCTA, but without SANCTA knowing that Saturn is telling us about their plans. This way we (The Alliance) can make plans to counter any plans that SANCTA has. Also, in the event of war with SANCTA, it is better to have 4 vs. 1 than 3 vs. 2
     
  10. HUSch

    HUSch Secret-monger

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    Peter
    In the next discussion you must say the other, they play wrong
    everybody can in CivStats see, that they have trade a tech.
    They can now open say hello we 've an ally!

    A tech-trade can't make the way like in pbem.
    I can see from open sources that Cav get Alpha and Kaz get a tech, because the score of Kaz increased when there isn't their turn.
    we must trust the other and then the tech give without a trade, in the time when the receiver has is turn. Then perhaps it can veiled. But so it's a beacon!


    If Anybody has question about intelligence, I think I can give that, iF you think they should know it. The last to decide is not my best trait.
     
  11. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    I'm not sure everyone got HUSch's comment, and it looks like it was not communicated to the alliance.

    If we want to hide alliance activities from the other two teams, techs must change hands slowly and in the form of gifts over several turns instead of trades within a turn.

    The other teams may notice what happened, or they may not. They may notice even with the single tech transfers, but the chances are lower.
     
  12. HUSch

    HUSch Secret-monger

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    Thx Dave
    So we get this mail and without peter, we don't see it.
    They wait for IW, but we need at least 4 turns, perhaps 5.
     
  13. peter grimes

    peter grimes ...

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    Hi all - I'm back from my mini-vacation :)

    A lot happened while I was gone - seems like it was mostly bad :(

    I read the letter that Cav sent us. I also had a little chat with Methos, detailing the problem of trading like that. It's very unfortunate that we blundered like this. But what's done is done, so all we can do is make the best of the situation. :shake:

    Here's the chat:
    Spoiler :
    me: Good Morning! Do you have a few minutes?

    dustem: sure, whats up?

    me: Ugh - I was away for the weekend, and when I checked on our forums this morning it seems I missed a lot...

    dustem: hopefully nothing bad

    me: The trade you offered tipped the existence of our alliance to everyone on civstats. Well, not quite....

    dustem: not quite?

    me: If we hadn't accepted it, nobody would have known. But we did accept it, despite our turnplayer instructing otherwise...
    I was supposed to let you guys know about this, but I was away...

    dustem: you weren't going to accept it to keep it quiet?

    me: The way to do trades in a game like this: you offer a tech for free, then a couple turns later we offer a tech in return. in this way, the score change on civstats will happen on the proper turn, not in the middle of someone else's turn. Do you follow?

    dustem: ah, I see. very smart

    me: I didn't know about any of this - it comes from people who have played a lot of pitboss
    So when we accepted the 4 techs all on one turn, our civstats score leaped up by an amount that can't be explained by simple research.
    That's the first thing - water under the bridge, at this point, since what's done is done. But you should definitely tell Kaz about this. OK, now for the second:

    dustem: ready for the second point

    me: We very well may lose a city to a barb. Our city defender is out of position, and we're not sure that we can lure the barb away from the city. It will be a big set-back for us, obviously. It will also delay Iron Working. right now it should be 5 turns, but if we lose the city, I'm not sure... maybe 8??

    dustem: that is bad news
    hopefully the barb goes elswhere

    me: Yes. We'll see. Your workboat appeared south of us. That's great!

    dustem: yeah, glad we can finally see you
    the bad thing is, you guys have already explored this area
    did you send a wb on north of you?

    me: Not quite- we hadn't mapped the entire peninsula. Yes, our WB is heading north.

    dustem: how far ahead of us in turns are you?

    me: ...checking...
    OK, we're roughly 10 turns ahead of you, moving NE along the coast. We expect to run into Saturn, based on what you guys have told us about the positions of the other teams. Maybe we'll meet them in a few turns.

    dustem: great news
    we should meet saturn in around five or six turns

    me: I'm just reading the letter you sent us... Good to know about the horses! But I think we need more Holkans at the moment ;)

    dustem: just thought we'd give you a heads up on where they were located

    me: That's about all I have for you now... I need to spend some time in the game and take some screen shots and stuff.... I know you guys asked about passes, so I'll look. I'm pretty certain we only know of a couple - the most important one being between your northern city and the horse lake peninsula.

    dustem: I believe you all said there was a large lake in the vicinity of our wb
    that has been explored, correct?

    me: yes, there is a lake on that peninsula... I'm looking for a screenshot as we speak.

    [several minutes pass, as I get called away from the computer]

    me: sorry - I have to go. Work is calling. Talk to you later :)

    dustem: later
     
  14. peter grimes

    peter grimes ...

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    Had a quick chat with Methos. Nothing too important, luckily, since I was in and out - mostly out :blush:

    Spoiler :
    dustem: hello again

    is Perimeter the threatened city?
    and hows it going with luring that barb away?
    just a thought, but if you do lose your city to a barb, what does your team think about us signing a phony war against you to hide our alliance?


    dustem: since they haven't met either of us yet, then they wouldn't know about the war. if you do lose a city, it'll throw them off thoug, granted, I'd rather you didn't


    me: Hi - been away from the compy. I'll float the idea in our forum, but I'm confident we won't lose the city. The barb didn't beeline for the city, so we should be fine.

    dustem: That's good.
    I'm not sure if the phony idea would work, since neither of us has met saturn or sancta
    since we haven't met them, then they wouldn't know we were at war
    you haven't met either of them, correct? if you have, then it is a possibility

    me: One other thing to consider - they almost certainly know that something is going on just by looking at civstats. No, we haven't met anyone but you.

    dustem: you're fairly positive the city is safe?

    me: yep. The barb would have to win 2 separate battles with slim odds.

    dustem: thats great news
    was the city Perimeter?


    dustem: heading to work, so chat with you later
    good news regarding the barb

    me: cya - sorry I've been sporadic :)
     
  15. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    It should be obvious that Perimeter couldn't be the threatened city, since barbs don't suddenly appear inside borders. But perhaps their wb hasn't rounded the cape yet. Good job not responding to that.
     
  16. peter grimes

    peter grimes ...

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    :D thanks Dave. It's easy to forget that there's no way the person on the other end of the chat has no idea if you're still sitting in front of the computer or not. In this case, I had plenty of work to do in the shop, so I was in and out of the office.
     
  17. HUSch

    HUSch Secret-monger

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    Peter makes a good job at the communicate with cav. His speaking with them is a balance between secrecy and goodwill. If the end is good he has made his job, if it isn't we (or I) 'll cry. Hopefully my english isn't good enough, but I wouldn't do it in German also.
     
  18. peter grimes

    peter grimes ...

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    :lol: I certainly hope I won't make you cry, HUSch!

    I'm pretty comfortable with the relationship we have with Cav. What I'm nervous about is how we'll handle relations with Saturn and SANCTA :hmm:
     
  19. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    After IW, what are our allies expecting from us? Are we getting a fair say in the tech after next?
     
  20. HUSch

    HUSch Secret-monger

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    I think we must research sailing, because that is the 2. tech for them; Cav get with sailing TR with us, we not.
     

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