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Embassy Cavaleiros-discussion

Discussion in 'Team Mad Scientists' started by HUSch, Feb 1, 2009.

  1. peter grimes

    peter grimes ...

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    Sorry - I've been less-than-active recently.

    Yes, our allies are expecting us to research Sailing next. For one thing, Cav have revealed all of the coast between our lands, and also the coast leading to Kazakhstan.

    Let's make sure that we all understand HUSch's advice: DO NOT ACCEPT any trades that are offered - unless you are the turnplayer. We don't want to alert the other teams any more than necessary. From Memphus' posts in the UN, it's clear that SANCTA, at least, is watching this stuff.

    Perhaps the next time I chat with Methos or Oyzar I'll propose that we wait to trade IW... unless they have an immediate need for the tech.
     
  2. HUSch

    HUSch Secret-monger

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    IW brings 10 MP in F9 (like horse riding), so the posession can't be veiled from an attentiv player.
     
  3. HUSch

    HUSch Secret-monger

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    1280 BC
    I 've declined Mona offer from Cav.
     
  4. HUSch

    HUSch Secret-monger

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    I 've give them IW during their turn.

    If you look at Civstats you see, during we and Cav are logged, Cav get +12 SP. If you then look at F9-Demo you see Cav get +10 MP, so all screens are useless.
    With seq. PB and Civstats there is only open diplo.
     
  5. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    Do we need to send a note to Cav regarding the contact?
     
  6. peter grimes

    peter grimes ...

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    Quick chat with Methos
    - informed him that we met SANCTA
    - explained state of war, and possible cease-fire
    - told him where we met
    - explained why we didn't accept tech trades
    - 6 turns to sailing
    - they will get back to us about where KAZ is in relation to Aristotle

    Spoiler :

    me: Got some time?

    dustem: sure. whats up?

    me: We've met Sancta. Far to the east, a wandering Axe.
    Memphus misclicked, and declared war. He then offered us a ceasefire. We're going to accept the ceasefire.

    dustem: lol, thats funny but sucks

    me: Yeah. btw - I've been gone for a few days, so I'm still catching up on stuff. No, we moved and saw him on a hill.

    dustem: between kaz's very odd intro to sancta and you're dow'ing on them, they've got to wonder
    just curious, but why aren't you guys wanting alphabet and monarchy?
    whoops, memphus is on sancta, my mstake

    me: We didn't declare. That's right - Memphus (SANCTA) misclicked when trying to go into the diplo screen. He had already pressed ALT... In any case, Axe vs. warrior means we'd lose that battle anyway. So we're going to try to keep exploring in that direction. We think we're beyond KAZ at this point, so we should hit the coast soon.

    We encountered him about 30 tiles east of your new city (what's its name again?), at about the same latitude.

    dustem: Cimeira
    we believe our wb will meet them next turn
    I don't have time right now, but later I'll log in and see about where in relation to Kaz you are

    me: That's right. Cimeira Loca. Regarding techs: We declined Monarchy because we don't need it yet. We declined Alphabet because we don't want SANCTA or SATURN to see our techs yet (we still haven't met SATURN). We will ask for them when we need them. We have started research on Sailing. It's about 6 turns away, at the longest.

    dustem: ok, was curious
    have to go pick my wife up for lunch, so I'll be back later

    me: HUSch is very keen on not letting the other teams know anything more than necessary through demo screen and civstats. CYA!
     
  7. peter grimes

    peter grimes ...

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    Chat with Methos, tho' I was out during the first part. For this reason, I've left some of the time-stamps.
    - They've met SANCTA
    - EPs 100% on SAN
    - I propose the Alliance share letters sent by sancta. We need to discuss this further as a team.

    Spoiler :
    dustem: we just met sancta
    we've put all of our eps on them, and suggest you do the same
    if you don't mind

    15 minutes

    3:02 PM

    dustem: you seem busy, so I pm'ed you with a cc to dave shack.

    19 minutes

    3:22 PM

    me: Yes, I'm in and out today. We have already put all our EPs on SANCTA. I'm guessing it was your brave little workboat that met them?

    dustem: yep
    we don't see their city yet, just the borders

    me: Cool. We are about to send back a formal reply to their first official letter of introduction. It was a pleasant letter, offering peace, and some free intel on scouting. Of course, from what you had mentioned we knew most of what they told us already. How do you feel about You, Us, and KAZ freely sharing all letters SANCTA sends. This may make it easier to coordinate responses.

    dustem: sure, that sounds great!
    I'm planning on sending ours out tomorrow
    I'll be their diplomat

    me: I'll need to get the team's approval before sending off a copy to you, of course.

    dustem: of course, as I will mine

    me: Can you suggest this to KAZ today, in the interest of expediency?

    dustem: sure, np
     
  8. peter grimes

    peter grimes ...

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    Little chat with Methos. Just after he started, I wound up in a phone call and missed most of it. Then I replied, and then I had to go again. that's why this is less a conversation and more of an email:

    Spoiler :
    dustem: hello

    are you busy?

    me: Hi!... I don't think I'm busy, unless my boss walks in ;)

    dustem: alright

    I'm getting ready to send you the letters sancta has sent us

    I was curious if you'd received the same thing, or what you'd received

    me: brb

    dustem: do you want me to pm them just to you, or cc daveshack
    6 minutes

    dustem: I went ahead and cc'ed dave

    me: Back. We just received a letter from them offering a peace treaty. It's a fine deal - basically a non-aggression pact until 1ad. They are hoping it will open the door to tech trades. We, of course, want them to think that we are not in league with you and KAZ. Therefore we are thinking of 'stringing them along'. . .

    General_W has requested a chat with me, but we haven't worked out a time. I don't want him to find out that we sort of know KAZ, but I don't think I should lie about you guys: The question is, how little can I say that will still be misleading without outright lies? I'd like him to fill in the blanks and reach his own [incorrect] conclusions.

    dustem: I've been chatting with GW and he is an excellent diplomat, so be careful

    he has yet to inquire about who we know, though I'm guessing the similarities in the last letter and the one Kaz got is basically saying they know kaz and us are together
    remember that due to the F4 screen sancta will know we have an OB agreement

    also, our warrior is near your lands, I'm assuming you don't wish us to enter your borders?
     
  9. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    I posted the PM about their phony war with SANCTA in the embassy thread.
     
  10. peter grimes

    peter grimes ...

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    Quick chat with Niklas. I've got to get to work now, so I don't have time to make it all pretty. Big thing we need to discuss:

    Should The Tripple [sic] Alliance trade Alphabet to SANCTA in exchange for Metal Casting??

    Spoiler :
    Niklas: hey peter :)

    me: g'mornin'.

    Niklas: been a while since we talked
    8:57 AM
    anything interesting happen on your end?

    me: yep. I've been fairly busy with work - I'm sure you understand ;)

    Niklas: if I do...

    me: We've met Saturn. Got OB with them for our workboat to pass.

    Niklas: oh - that's certainly interesting things happening
    8:58 AM
    me: I think daveshack may have sent you guys a letter along those lines. . . I haven't been on the forums for a couple of days.
    8:59 AM
    EDIT: I haven't been on the cIV forum for a couple days.

    Niklas: hmm, no message from you
    9:00 AM
    but I certainly understand if things move slow, we've had our share of busy times with little happening ingame

    I take it you couldn't give me an accurate ETA on Sailing then? :)

    me: Let me see what I can find out....
    9:01 AM
    Niklas: I'd appreciate it :)

    did anything else of interest come of the meeting with Saturn?

    also, we are discussing with SANCTA, and it seems they might be open to a trade of MC for Alpha
    9:02 AM
    me: looks like 4/5 turns till sailing. I'll check on Saturn now...

    Niklas: both us and Kaz are tentatively positive to such a deal - would you be as well?
    9:03 AM
    me: I'm not sure how we'd feel.... I'll have to ask the team, clearly. First impression: Why speed them along to tech parity? Perhaps if we trade them Alphabet we should agree not to trade anything that SANCTA doesn't have to Saturn: an embargo to keep those two behind the three of us?
    9:04 AM
    Niklas: we already have something of an embargo written into our treaty, so that nothing is traded unless all three of us think it's a good idea
    9:05 AM
    me: re: Saturn: they claim to have met nobody, but I haven't checked this in-game. They know that you and Kaz have been trading tech.

    Niklas: MC is 1.5x the cost of Alpha, so it would technically speed our alliance up per-team as much as theirs - which doesn't even exist yet
    9:07 AM
    me: I've got to go now - I'll check in-game later today to see if Saturn was telling the truth... but the letter was from Lord Parkin, and HUSch posted it 6 hours ago... the letter didn't come to our team gmail, for some reason - must have been a PM.

    Niklas: alright, talk to you later :)

    me: I'll post about the trade now, too. Catch you later :)
     
  11. HUSch

    HUSch Secret-monger

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    My first quick answer is: yes!
    But with this deal, it 'll be clearer, that we 've an ally, because we want the tech also. And so that is the question we must decide.
     
  12. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    Here is a plan:

    We get Alphabet and trade it for MC.
    Delay a few turns, give MC to Cav
    Cav delays a turn and gives it to Kaz

    This way it is plausible from SAN's point of view we're not a full member of the alliance, and we get to play the nice guy.

    Do we have enough hammers to think about the Colossus?
     
  13. peter grimes

    peter grimes ...

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    I just received a PM from Methos. He's hoping that we'll share the letters we've gotten from SANCTA, since he shared Cav's with us. For reference, here are the two letters from SANCTA:

    Spoiler First :
    Namaste HUSch,
    The Ninjas salute the brilliant Mad Scientists.

    We are most pleased to have met your people, and everyone from the Mighty Shogun to the humblest ninja-in-training apologizes for our gross diplomatic negligence in our first contact. Praise Sullla, no one actually died!

    You have gained great favor with the ninja people with your respectfulness towards our worker. We will not soon forget your graciousness in heading east rather than north.
    As Shogun Memphus told you, to the immediate north of your scout there is nought but jungle and then our territory blocking all further access. If it's still relevant and of interest to you when one of us learns paper – we will gladly provide a screenshot of the territory you missed exploring due to honoring our request. Just remind us when the time comes!

    Or – if you'd like to scout further north with our blessing – we'd be happy to sign a peace treaty with you (as soon as the game allows it anyway) and cement the general goodwill between our peoples.

    As a "free-of-charge" scouting tip: to your east lies forest and jungle hills – and unexplored territory that is (as far as we can see) open and unblocked for your scout to explore.
    Since it would appear that neither of us have knowledge of Alphabet yet – we don't really have opportunity to make any deals. But when the time comes, please know that you have friends in the halls of the Ninja.

    Let us know what you think about the formal peace treaty, and any other ideas on your mind.

    -- General_W, Daimyo of State, SANCTA.


    Spoiler second :
    Namaste Peter Grimes,
    The Ninjas salute the brilliant Mad Scientists.

    We have much to speak with you about! Events are proceeding rapidly on this world, and the ninja have sensed a loyal and trustworthy spirit in our Mad (in a good way!) Scientist friends.

    The ninja wise men, by studying the intricate patterns formed by tea leaves cast upon steaming hot jade water (or at least, that’s how they explained it to me), have discovered compelling evidence that the nations of Kazakhstan and Cavaleiros are trading heavily. They both have knowledge of Alphabet, Monarchy, and Iron Working. To make matters worse, the Kazakh’s just learned Code of Laws.

    Ourselves, we are nearly done with our studies of sailing, but we still lack writing and aren’t sure how soon we can get Alphabet. In the face of this building technological juggernaut – we think it’s time for us to cement our friendship in peace, and rapidly begin to build a tech alliance of our own. At the least, we should coordinate techs to not duplicate efforts and fall further and further behind the Cav-Kazak partnership of doom.

    We are attaching a peace treaty for signing – based on your last letter to us – and are very eager to hear back from you on building a larger alliance on this foundation to keep us both away from the dustbin of history. We feel we should try to lock something down now, rather than waiting for Alphabet when it may be too late.

    Faithfully yours,
    General_W, Daimyo of State, SANCTA

    Desperate times call
    The Mighty to greatness new
    Daybreak of friendship

    [includes image of the Peace Treaty]
     
  14. peter grimes

    peter grimes ...

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    I'm not sure that would work. For one thing, SANCTA is offering the trade to CAV, not us :lol:

    But perhaps we should tell SANCTA that we'll have Alphabet in [n] turns, and will be anxious to explore tech trades? Of course, we'd have to coordinate that with our buddies.

    I really wish I had more time to devote to this - we Mad Scientists are perfectly positioned to exploit all 4 teams, if we can come up with a consistent plan.
     
  15. HUSch

    HUSch Secret-monger

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    What should we make with the letters from SAN to Cav?
    We 've only the manpower for our own post, there is no time for others.

    If we get Alpha from Cav and give that to SAN, then is the ally clear like we get MC from Cav, after they get it from SAN.
     
  16. peter grimes

    peter grimes ...

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    I think we should send SANCTA's letters to Cav. For one thing, it was I who, for better or worse, suggested the idea in the first place. Secondly, Methos sent us copies of the letter they had received on nothing more than trust that we would follow through. We will not look like very nice allies if we withhold them.

    Proposal:
    - Send SANCTA's letters to Cav.
    - Sometime after we get sailing, we can request Alphabet hiding our trades so SANCTA doesn't suspect the Alliance
    - Cav should stall the negotiations with SANCTA - until after we have recieved Alphabet.
    - A few turns after we have Alpha, we can get MC SANCTA, as long as SANCTA is mad at KAZ/CAV for being difficult negotiating partners. this will make SANCTA believe that we are not part of the Tripple Alliance!
    - We promise SANCTA that we will not trade MC to CAV/KAZ... but we'll have to find a way around this. we will have some time to start Colossus ;)
    - Saturn: We (MS) propose an alliance with them, not telling them about CAV/KAZ. Saturn becomes the 'Vassal' of The Tripple Alliance.

    Problems:
    - I (and all of us!) must avoid chats with anyone from SANCTA. These days, work is crazy enough that shouldn't be a problem
    - SANCTA may guess what's going on, depending on the timing of things. For one thing, they may already have a jump start on Colossus :eek:
    - Saturn will have to be helped along a bit, so that they don't decide that trading with SANCTA is more profitable. In fact, it may come to pass that it is necessary to inform SATURN of The Tripple Alliance, and bring them on as full members. That, I think, will cause MS difficulties in the long run. If that happens, we will have to choose which of the others - CAV, KAZ, or SAT to remain partners with no matter what happens in the rest of the game. Right now, I think CAV is our best long-term partner.


    I have another really busy day tomorrow (I'm hosting 2 seminars, something I've never done before :dubious:, and have morning and afternoon design meetings :gripe:) so hopefully the remaining active Mad Scientists can discuss the points I've laid out and offer suggestions.

    But one thing I'd like us to decide in the next 12 hours: Send SANCTA's letters to CAV or not? If Yes, then I will send them about 12 hours from this post. :hatsoff:
     
  17. topas

    topas Prince

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    I agree sending SAN's letters to Cav.

    great post peter!

    We definately have to work out our position and stretegy for the upcoming - let's say - 100-150 turns.
    I don't agree 100% with your position, but we certainly have some similar basic ideas on this topic.
    Hopefully I find the time to post my thoughts about it tomorrow, but my schedule is packed as well... (and now I'm way too tired to start on a decent thought and spoken post...)
     
  18. peter grimes

    peter grimes ...

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    I've sent above letters to Methos via PM. I also let him know that we're talking about the proposed trade of Alphabet to SANCTA for Metal Casting, and we may have an alternative idea.
     
  19. HUSch

    HUSch Secret-monger

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    :goodjob: Peter

    also the post above
    Peter your plan looks good, but Cav/kaz 'll want MC also. Your plan is too complicate.
    Our deal (sailing against alpha) with Cav is not so good for SAN. What 'll they think, if Cav gives to us alpha for sailing but not to San for MC?

    btw
    If we 've alpha, we must decide deals with saturn.
     
  20. peter grimes

    peter grimes ...

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    I'm not proposing that we give Sailing on the same turn we receive Alphabet - I want SANCTA to be confused about our relationship with CAV/KAZ [every time I write that I can't help but think of Vladikavkaz :lol:]

    I'd like to hear from a few more people so that we can formulate a coherent plan to offer CAV/KAZ in an official letter.

    I really hate how fast this game is going. I'd really like to see the turn-timer extended to 48 or even 72 hours at this point. Of course, we're the only team to know all 4 other teams, so clearly we need more time for diplo than, say, Saturn. Also, I'm just super busy at work for now.

    And it looks like I'm going to be busy for the next three weeks, then it's smooth sailing :cool:
     

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