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Embassy Cavaleiros-discussion

Discussion in 'Team Mad Scientists' started by HUSch, Feb 1, 2009.

  1. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

    Feb 2, 2003
    Arizona, USA (it's a dry heat)
    Well, technically we don't know Kaz yet. ;)

    I was trying to suggest much the same thing as Peter was. Instead of having Cav or Kaz trade with SAN/SAT, funnel those trades through us. But we have to convince Cav & Kaz that it is good for them to have us act as the middlemen. The justification is that we don't think SAN/SAT know there are 3 teams in our alliance. They have shown they know Cav & Kaz are allies and they are worried about it.

    The obvious benefit to us is that we end up friendly with everyone, so as long as we don't end up in a 4v1, we will still have the ability to choose which side of a 3v2 we want. :D
  2. peter grimes

    peter grimes ...

    Jul 18, 2005
    Queens, New York
    Chat with Oyzar... I don't have time to clean it up right now, sorry. Perhaps later today or this evening :sad:

    Spoiler :
    9:13 AM
    Øystein: hi

    me: Hi. I haven't been ignoring you - you've been catching me at bad times. But I've got a little time now.
    9:14 AM
    Øystein: lol

    thats what you get when you live in different timezones

    me: and work for a guy whose wife is having a kid. Yay! More work for the rest of us!
    9:15 AM
    Øystein: heh

    anyways what have you been up to?

    you've told us very little of your dealings with sancta and saturn

    why don't you want monarchy yet? certainly it is the most important economic tech at this point?
    9:16 AM
    me: Saturn: We've met them. They know nobody else. They are worried about SANCTA's lead. We have OB with them, so our workboat can continue exploring. ...
    9:17 AM
    SANCTA: Not sure if we have OB with them... I'm inclined to think we do. We have peace, through 1AD. SANCTA doesn't know that we are allied with you and KAZ. We have been able to lead them to believe we don't know anything at all about KAZ. We are mapping the southern region of SANCTA.
    9:18 AM
    Øystein: why didn't you talk to us before you made peace with them?

    I am not aware of any plans to attack them anytime soon, but it would have been nice to let us know at least

    me: We are trying to work out a way for you and us to manipulate SANCTA further. SANCTA wants Alphabet...
    9:19 AM
    Sorry about the peace thing - didn't know it would be a problem. I mean, it's not like we declared war on them ;-)

    Øystein: but you guys don't actually have alphabet yet right?

    me: We do not have alpha.

    Øystein: declearing war isn't a problem against enemies, peace might be(as it leaves them free to attack kaz for example)
    9:20 AM
    so what have you learned about saturn? how close are we to meet them what techs do they have? how many cities?

    what are you thinking of researching next?
    9:22 AM
    we were thinking of giving sancta alpha for MC(alpha won't actually help them before they meet saturn and even then it isn't that good as we save more beakers on us getting MC(for the 3 of us) than them getting alpha)
    9:23 AM
    me: I'm checking to see what we know of Saturn...
    9:26 AM
    Saturn has 3 cities. I dont' know how close you are to meeting them, as I don't know where you are in your exploration. Keep sailing west from SANCTA, you will meet our WB, then we can tell you how far to Saturn....

    Øystein: well we have a workboat comming north from you guys too no?

    did you meet them by wb or by land?
    9:27 AM
    me: We met them by WB, sailing north from our lands. I forgot about your wb in our area.... I'll go see if I can count tiles. brb
    9:30 AM
    It's hard for me to say, but I think you've got about 10-15 turns until you meet them. Chances are your other boat will do it first.

    Øystein: ok

    so research

    me: Research: What are you doing next? We'd like to do Masonry

    Øystein: kaz have already done masonery

    why do you want masonery?
    9:31 AM
    me: Didn't know Kaz had already done it.

    Øystein: just to hook up resources or is there any specific wonders you want to build?

    well masonery is just 2 turns, so it was rather recent...
    9:32 AM
    do you plan to build any wonders from it?

    me: No, I don't recall any talk of Masonry wonders...

    Øystein: then why would you want to research it?

    when are you going to get sailing?

    me: We didn't know that KAZ already did it.
    9:33 AM
    Øystein: well they did it to get monotheism to deny it from sancta

    me: Sailing finishes this turn.

    Øystein: ah ok
    9:34 AM
    what other techs were you thinking of going for?

    me: Perhaps a good way to approach SANCTA is if CAV and MS trade Sailing for Alphabet, then MS can get MC from SAN. We would not do the trade if they impose non-trading restrictions.

    Øystein: kaz wants great library(understandable with their philo trait) but also to deny it from sancta, so going for aestics is one idea
    9:35 AM
    sancta is already researching sailing

    me: Then why are they asking us for it?? Perhaps I was mistaken about that.

    Øystein: hmm

    they are?


    so they are asking you for sailing in return for what?
    9:36 AM
    you mean we trade alpha to you for sailing so as to not make it seem like gifting to the other teams(sancta)?
    9:37 AM
    me: Nope - I'm wrong. I just checked the letters. There's nothing about that. They mentioned that they are just about done with Sailing.

    Øystein: thats what i thought
    9:38 AM
    anyways how we get MC from sancta is not that important for our own research, MC is not an important tech anyways

    (it is not like any of us are industrious)
    9:40 AM
    me: I have to go now. But here's the essence of the idea we're working on: Keep SANCTA in the dark about MS being allied with CAV/KAZ. The advantage is that MS can get things from SANCTA for the alliance. Also, it may be wise to bring SATURN into the Alliance, albeit as a lesser partner.

    Øystein: aestics, theology, construction are all possiblities


    you are done with sailing this turn

    so what you are researching next is rather important...
    9:41 AM
    Personally i think aestics next is fine, but i don't know what exactly your plans are

    keeping sancta in the dark is fine, but it might be hard if you want to use most of the techs...

    (since the advantage of having a tech trading alliance is to get more techs to use faster after all)

    i am going to post this chat on the forums
    9:42 AM
    me: I'll post this in our forum, and we'll let you know what we are researching. What are you researching, and what is KAZ doing next? I'll be honest with you - I don't know what our plans are next either. I've haven't been around much in the last couple of weeks.

    Øystein: we are soon done with math

    kaz are researching masonery -> mono, we want them to do CS next, if not we'll do it, if they do CS we'll likely do currency

    me: Please think about Saturn - we don't want them allying with SANCTA, but do we really want to bring them full in?
    9:43 AM
    Øystein: they might do aestics if you guys don't do it, or maybe MC if we can't trade for it

    we certainly don't want to ally with more than 3 teams

    there are only 5 teams in the game
    9:44 AM
    me: I'll post this chat now. Bye!

    Øystein: cya
  3. HUSch

    HUSch Secret-monger

    Nov 23, 2005
    I don't read the tech, which Cav research, but he asks 3-4 times our goal.
  4. peter grimes

    peter grimes ...

    Jul 18, 2005
    Queens, New York
    Oyzar is quite impatient. He will ask several questions at the same time; each of them requiring many lines of text to answer. When I answer one, he misses it - because he's already thinking about the next question.

    CAV are stil researching Math, then Currency - they will be done 'soon'. KAZ are almost done with Masonry, then they will do Monotheism. CAV wants KAV to do Civil Service next, but if KAZ doesn't, then CAV will do CS.

    Oyzar thinks it is bad to bring SATURN into The Tripple Alliance. I think he is mistaken. Perhaps we can use SATURN for our own purposes??...
  5. topas

    topas Prince

    Jun 17, 2008
    I don't like the idea to bring Saturn in the alliance:
    At one point of time there will be a need to expand by force (because no more (good) land is available and then we will get a problem. Our natural enemies are Cav and Sat (because they are our neighbors).
    Possibly Kaz and SAN will be fighting each other. Cav might be able to participate in the war, but we certainly not.
    In the end Kaz (and Cav) get bigger and stronger, while we stay as big (or small) as we were before. In the course of events they can easily overrun Sat in the following... and we can start counting the turns until they attack us...
    If we don't want this to happen, we have to wrestle down Sat while Kaz and SAN are warring.

    I believe we will definately lose if we don't have a good target.
    I think it's almost certain that Kaz/Cav and SAN are heading towards war and once this starts, we have to follow somehow, if we don't want to fall apart... (else we will have to support our allies, which will make them stronger...)
    ... a weaker Saturn is just good for us...

    Concering research
    We could propose to go for Mono instead of Kaz and then continue on theology.
  6. peter grimes

    peter grimes ...

    Jul 18, 2005
    Queens, New York
    I agree with your reasoning, Topas. But how do we keep Saturn from allying with SANCTA?... Shouldn't that be the goal? Or do you think it may not matter, due to the advantage inherent in a 3 vs. 2?
  7. peter grimes

    peter grimes ...

    Jul 18, 2005
    Queens, New York
    New letter in from Cav:

    Spoiler :
    Greetings from your friendly allies os Cavalieros:

    We are glad to see that you have the ability to build boats that can
    carry men and more importantly trade along the coast. We would benefit
    greatly from having this ability, so we would like to receive the
    secrets of sailing this very turn. We can give you Monarchy in return
    to fool SANCTA, though they can't actually see exactly what techs you
    have without either of you having Alphabet. And surely your people
    must be unhappy about not seeing the benefits of units stationed in
    your cities?

    Since we are all close to or have just researched a new technology
    what to research next becomes an important issue. We will finish Maths
    next turn. After that the most important technology for us all is
    clearly Civil Service. Kazakstan will likely handle that as they
    research faster than either of us. They have finished CoL and are now
    doing Masonry -> Monotheism to deny our adversaries the bonus of a
    religion. If they agree to do Civil Service next, we will likely go
    for Currency. This technology would greatly improve trade relations
    between our nations and as such speed up technology advancement
    significantly (though not quite as significantly as the Bureaucracy
    from Civil Service allows).

    There are of course some options for what technology you can research
    next, and we would be most interested in hearing your thoughts on the
    matter. Kazakstan want to deny the Great Library from SANCTA while
    also getting it for themselves, because of their Philosophical trait.
    Since the most important economic techs should already be taken care
    off, maybe heading for Aesthetics and then Literature for the wonders
    they provide is an idea for you? Another idea would be to go for
    Construction or Calendar, but we are in no need for either of those
    techs currently, especially not considering the happiness from HR.
    Other possibilities include Feudalism, Philosophy, Theology, Archery
    and Metal Casting, but we don't think any of those techs are urgent at
    this point.

    Regarding wonders, do you have any plans to build any currently? We
    are planning to build the Great Wall to keep annoying barbs out of our
    territory as it is hard to prevent them from spawning with all the
    mountains in the way. We are also planning to build the Hanging
    Gardens fairly soon. As mentioned Kaz is hoping to build the Great
    Library, but they haven't mentioned any others. We belive SANCTA are
    aiming to build Colossus at least.

    We hope to be able to fool SANCTA into trading us Metal Casting for
    Alphabet. Alphabet is nearly useless by itself, so giving them that
    doesn't hurt us much, but getting Metal Casting would save us
    siginifcant beakers at some point. SANCTA also have yet to meet Saturn
    and as such can't utilize it properly. What do you think of this idea?

    Cooperation forever,
    oyzar dos Cavaleiros

    Here are my thoughts:
    1. I'm not against giving them Sailing, but I don't want us to do an even trade for Monarchy. SANCTA is paying very close attention to scores and such. So how do we do this?
    2. Interesting that KAZ is researching faster than us - is that simply because they have more population?... :dunno:
    3. I agree that it is best for KAZ to bee-line for Civil Service.
    4. KAZ wants to get a religion. I guess our idea of going for Theology isn't meshing with the other two.
    5. Great Library, Hanging Gardens, and Great Wall are all being contemplated. I wonder if they are being completely honest?... but in a partneship like this it would be the height of folly to keep your intentions to yourself. Better to stake a claim early! :hammer:
    6. I'm all for one of us getting MC from SANCTA... but I don't see that one being us. Unless we want to try and get Alpha - which opens a whole can of worms since we now know all the teams.
  8. peter grimes

    peter grimes ...

    Jul 18, 2005
    Queens, New York
    Wow - what a night. Here's the Chat I had with Oyzar in response to the letter above. Some interesting revelations. I'm getting a strong feeling that we're just an accessory in this Alliance - and I feel it's very much our own fault. Kaz and Cav are talking to each other all the time. We are lucky if we manage to talk with more that one team in a single week. I know this is due in a very large part to my [lack of] involvement lately :blush:

    Spoiler :
    me: Hi - are you still awake?

    Øystein: I guess

    me: It's not time-critical - I just read your letter.
    If you'd rather chat tomorrow or Sunday, that's fine.

    Øystein: well if you got things to tell me you could always say them now :)

    me: Sure :) Initial thoughts: KAZ going for CS is smart. But why are they detouring through Monotheism? Is it only for the religion?

    Øystein: well they also had to wait for us to finish math

    me: True... I don't know if it's wise to trade Sailing and Monarchy at the same time. Can we give you Sailing when we play the save, and then get Monarchy from you on the following turn or two?

    I'm worried about SANCTA figuring out that we are allied with you two.

    Øystein: Well we would prefer sailing before we end our turn... getting it during our turn would look best anyways...
    and i think sancta will find out sooner or later anyways...

    me: Yes, they will find out sooner or later. But as long as they are guessing (and until The Triple Alliance has Metal Casting from them) I think we should guard our secrets. Did you request Sailing from us already in-game?

    Øystein: I don't think so, not sure though

    me: If you haven't, then I will instruct HUSch to offer you Sailing for nothing. Then in a turn or two, we'll request Monarchy from you. Does that work?

    Øystein: Sure, but are you sure you don't need monarchy sooner(i am surprised you have waited this long given how important tech it is most of the time...) the ability to grow cities is very powerful.

    me: Yes, I know that we want to grow larger as soon as possible... but the micro-managers on the team know more about that than I. btw - you had asked if there's anyone else to contact on our team. Daveshack is around a lot. But I don't know if he chats.
    ...and he's no MMer :)

    Øystein: I don't think he have IM, i've asked him before

    me: regarding tech: We were hoping to do Monotheism, but I'm not sure precisely why. That's why I was wondering if KAZ has their heart set on it.

    Øystein: Well why do you want mono? for the civic? That can be fixed, you don't actually need the religion do you?

    me: We already are Hindoo - so I doubt it's for the religion. ACtually, I suspect it is indeed for the civic: that's like a free forge in every city. Of course, most of our cities are tiny right now.

    Øystein: Then, I am sure it can be aranged that you get mono too...
    there is no reason to not share all techs eventually after all

    me: Yes, of course. But for the next research goal... I'm checking our forum to see what we were discussing...

    Øystein: right
    Did your team discuss aestics / calendar / construction at all?

    me: Well, all of the discussion has centered around Masonry and Monotheism so far. And there are some who don't want to research a tech [Aesthetics] just so that someone else can build a wonder - unless there's a way to compensate. You understand the emotion, I'm sure. We haven't discussed Calendar nor Construction.

    Øystein: Well you can build wonders too....

    me: I don't think there's really a way to compensate for that, except to be granted a right to build a different wonder. like you just said :)

    Øystein: Well look at it another way, if they researched aestics and you researched CS instead you would get CS way slower for example...
    while the same amount of beakers would have been spent on aestics

    me: Are Aesthetics and CS the same cost?

    Øystein: nope

    me: I thought CS was far more expensive.

    Øystein: CS is indeed far more expensive

    me: just re-read, and now I understand your point. Just so you know, my own personal style of play is that when there is a partnership, each member is stronger with the gains of the other. In other words, with KAZ building Great Library, that benefits all 3 of us.

    Øystein: I don't see the problem though.. The whole point of a tech alliance is that everyone should get access to what they need as as they need it/as fast as possible... The technicalities of beakers(at least to me) is secondary

    me: I'm in complete agreement, but not every Mad Scientist sees it that way.

    Øystein: well post this log then at least ;) And uh, you don't plan to double research mono do you?

    me: I'd rather we didn't double research - that just stunts all of us. I think the 'safety' tech should be Calendar - it's necessary eventually, and we've got lots of stuff that could use a plantation.

    Øystein: For us the value of calendar would be close to zero and would likely mean some of us would have to double back to do aestics anyways...

    me: ...looking at the tech tree now... [I don't know it inside and out ;-)]
    5 minutes

    me: You know, the more I look at the tree, the more I think it makes sense for us to do Aesthetics... and then something more utilitarian. Personally, I really like the Shwedagon Paya :) But I've never built it without gold. I'm pretty sure we don't have gold, but don't quote me on that.

    Øystein: Well there is also music giving a free artist at the end of that line...

    me: you'll have to work a little harder to sell me on a free GA. ;-) What's so great about that?

    Øystein: well it can bulb theology if you have drama, or it could start a golden age at some point

    me: Yeah, Golden Ages are useful... but I have a feeling that's not going to be a selling point for us. Don't worry, though - whatever tech we do, I'll do my best to see that it isn't one that you or KAZ is already doing (or planning to do). I'm going to push for Aesthetics...

    Øystein: It is not really about pushing for any given tech, it is about working out which is best for all parties together...

    me: Yes. But I think you're wrong about Calendar having zero benefit if you consider all three teams ;-)

    Øystein: sure :)

    me: So to wrap up: We
    ..will offer you Sailing on our turn...

    Øystein: before that no?
    We need it before we end our turn to get the benefit
    it is one wasted beaker per city pretty much

    me: I don't follow - how can you get it any earlier??

    Øystein: I thought you gott it hitting enter last turn?

    me: ..checking...
    Correct. We now have it.
    ps- so does someone else, I think.

    Øystein: how do you know? From your gnp?`
    you would have been able to tell if you had alpha, but i guess kaz can tell anyways, they just met saturn btw

    me: I'm looking...
    SANCTA appears to have it... you should see it next turn. Did KAZ find them with a wb?

    Øystein: yeah, we met sancta too

    me: You've known SANCTA for several turns now. You didn't notice that clever bit I sent them where I asked if they attacked an explorer of yours?? I consider it one of my finer moments :)

    Øystein: maybe you could log in to offer it to us?

    me: I can't - I'm at home, and I only have civ at work. But I'll be at work in less than 12 hours :( However, I can't really do anything like that without a majority of the team agreeing - I'm not the turnplayer.

    Øystein: right
    I'll post this chat on the forums
    If you could get someone to offer sailing to us that would be great

    me: Sounds good. I'll do what I can. Thanks for the chat :)

    Øystein: good night

    me: good night :)

    - KAZ has met Saturn!!... Kaz has Alphabet, so we should be able to find out what techs Saturn has.
    - CAV are eager for sailing. We should offer Sailing to them on our turn.
    - We can request Monarchy at any time
    - [I think] it makes sense for us to research Aesthetics. I've revised my earlier position.
    - Very interesting exchange at the very end: He mentions that they've met SANCTA - I wonder if he meant Saturn? - and then abruptly changes the subject back to the issue of the trade for Sailing. We need to confirm that Saturn still only knows MS and KAZ.
  9. HUSch

    HUSch Secret-monger

    Nov 23, 2005
    Sailing should be go to Cav, when they are to play not we.
    Why should we research Aesthetics? It's nice, that you change your opinion, but what is the reason for that.
    Cav know SAn a long time, they both 've want to deal Alpha against MC, you 've said.
  10. peter grimes

    peter grimes ...

    Jul 18, 2005
    Queens, New York
    But if we intend to keep the trading hidden from SANCTA, then we should send Sailing on our turn. Then when it's Cav's turn, their score increases. Otherwise their score will increase during our turn, not their own.

    Aesthetics will allow us to build the Shwedagon Paya, and it means that the other Alliance members won't have to research it later - we all get Civil Service faster.
  11. HUSch

    HUSch Secret-monger

    Nov 23, 2005
    Perhaps I 've made a wrong explanation.
    If cav get points when it doesn't their turn, then it's clear they get a tech. So it's best they get the tech when it's their turn.
    Why do we get CS faster?

    I haven't post it, that Socrates (scientist) is born in a unknown land (Kaz is the only for us). And SAN think they 've build a academy.
  12. topas

    topas Prince

    Jun 17, 2008
    Calendar offers plantation, which are very strong for us. We get +2:) from dyes and spices. That's food and lots of commerce for CERN. Further Gottingen gets another food-ressource.
    Else I would go for construction for the ball court which offers +3:).

    Else we should get monarchy rather fast. It offers a really powerful civic, but I would prefer revolting to OR on the same turn.
    (Or if this would slow our growth, we could revolt to HR earlier and revolt to Buro+OR later...)

    ... Oyzar is definately right, that the main goal of the alliance is to pull away from the other teams, which means that we utilize the benefits from good techs better and earlier.
    I don't think we can hide our alliance longer than 10-15 more turns. We can't leave out the benefits of monarchy, currency, CS, CoL, calendar...

    I think we should claim the Apostolic Palace before Cav or Kaz start talking about it...

    ... one other thought: Does Cav have stone?
    They are talking about building 2 stone wonders (which are certainly ratehr cheap, but anyways...)

    Maybe we should consider chopping 'henge with math? It's really cheap and could help with a prophet for the shrine.
    (Another option would be going for the GLH, but I somehow think that SAN (or Sat?) will go for it soon.)
  13. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

    Feb 2, 2003
    Arizona, USA (it's a dry heat)
    We need to take the techs they will give us before they change their mind about the alliance. We seem to be in last place with no hope of recovering from that on our own. Maybe we should forget about trying to hide things, or we'll alienate them to the point that it becomes a 2v2v1 with us as the 1.
  14. HUSch

    HUSch Secret-monger

    Nov 23, 2005
    A question:
    Have Cav the permission to go with their warrior through our land? Or is their last move without our permission? I know they 've made an inquiry about it.
  15. HUSch

    HUSch Secret-monger

    Nov 23, 2005
    Because the message from Kaz, I wish to send a PM to Cav

  16. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

    Feb 2, 2003
    Arizona, USA (it's a dry heat)
    Sounds ok to me.
  17. HUSch

    HUSch Secret-monger

    Nov 23, 2005
    I 've send it to KingMorgan turnplayer of Cav.

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