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Embassy Cavaleiros

Discussion in 'Team Mad Scientists' started by HUSch, Feb 1, 2009.

  1. HUSch

    HUSch Secret-monger

    Nov 23, 2005
    We meet them 1920 BC

    Here will stand only the real communications with the team Cavaleiros
    Discussion is here

    We get this PM
    And send this PM
    Also there was this ingame communication between Oyzar and me.
  2. peter grimes

    peter grimes ...

    Jul 18, 2005
    Queens, New York
    Received from Cavalheiros:

    Discussion here.
  3. peter grimes

    peter grimes ...

    Jul 18, 2005
    Queens, New York
    Chat with Oyzar:

    Spoiler :
    Øystein: hi

    me: Hi, I'm chatting with Niklas as well

    Øystein: as you can see from my pm i am from norway

    ya but niklas is busy

    i told him to chat with you to see if you could chat with me ;)
    3:43 PM
    me: So he's setting up an appointment for us? LOL

    Øystein: something like that
    3:44 PM
    so i take it you guys don't want to do any official diplo on im then?

    me: I don't think the team is ready for that just yet. With time, probably that will be fine.
    3:45 PM
    Øystein: hmm

    does it work to talk here instead?

    me: Just so you understand, I will be posting this chat in our forums. Not to scare you - just so that my teammates know everything that has been said.

    Øystein: sure i'll do the same thing
    3:46 PM
    me: I can tell you that your letter has been received very favorably.

    Øystein: that is good

    me: We're drafting a formal reply.
    3:47 PM
    I'm curious - does anyone on your team know portugues?

    Øystein: yeah

    I drafted a portuguese

    3:48 PM
    r_rolo is portuguese
    3:50 PM
    me: Of course. I knew that, actually. I lived there for a year, so it's always nice to see the language in unexpected places :)
    3:51 PM
    Øystein: so what do you think of the mdtg so far?

    is it living up to expectations?

    me: Other than you guys hounding our playing speed? LOL I love these games. I've been in the first 3, so I feel like a veteran, even though I'm not the most skilled player by any means.
    3:53 PM
    Just so you know - I'm on gmail just about all day long. You should feel free to contact me whenever you like - the door is always open. So are you enjoyin g the team aspect? Have you played on a team before?
    3:56 PM
    Øystein: still showing as offline...

    me: you showed as offline a few moments ago.

    Øystein: i relogged in

    now it works again
    3:57 PM
    me: Did you see my post about contacting me whenever you like?

    Øystein: yeah

    did you see what i said?
    3:58 PM
    me: no, I think your response must have been dropped. The last I have from you is "is the MTDG living up to expectations?"

    Øystein: ok

    Well as long as your team is good enough personal skill doesn't matter much
    3:59 PM
    me: exactly. I rarely play SP, because I find humans more interesting. i also prefer the pace of MP
    4:00 PM
    Øystein: pace of mp? there are loads of difference paces from blazing ffa lobby games to ladder games to pitboss games to pbem

    so what do you guys want from us?
    4:01 PM
    me: Oh, good point. I play PBEM mostly, because none of the people I play against feel like hosting Pitboss. I like Pitboss the best. What do we want? I think we want the same as you guys.
    4:02 PM
    Øystein: PBEM is so slow / inconsistent, i play mostly pitboss myself, i agree that SP is a bit boring

    me: How many games to you usually have going at once? I usually have 3 or 4, plus the MTDGs.
    4:03 PM
    Øystein: depends on how bussy i am with other things, atm i have 4, i had like 8 once but i don't think i'll go much above 6...

    me: Do you play while at work? That's the only time I can use BtS - I have a mac at home, a small one :)
    4:04 PM
    Øystein: lol, i am still a student, i can login from class but prefer not to...

    but anyways can you be more concrete on exactly what you guys envison of the future?
    4:05 PM
    me: sorry - Yes, we want to talk Tech division; Yes, we want to talk Trade Routes... but first we must agree on a Peace Agreement - that is the simple part. Then we can discuss the difficult details.
    4:06 PM
    Øystein: I understand that this is not an official communication but we can speed up a lot of things if we clear up things here and help agreeing on proposals
    4:07 PM
    me: In the past, I have seen Peace Treaties that last for certain eras, or sometimes until a certain tech is researched. Personally I prefer the ones that last through a certain era.

    Øystein: I've seen a lot of different peace treaties

    but those that last to a specific date is certainly easiest to plan around, if not the most practical in game terms...
    4:09 PM
    me: Yes... I've also seen many that have a 'cushion' at the end: Teams may not declare war until after x turns have passed after the treaty ends. Sort of a winding down. btw- please tell me if you don't understand something. So far I'm really impressed with you english!
    4:10 PM
    Øystein: Why is it that americans think noone can speak a second language well? Just because english is my second language doesn't mean i can't speak and write it fluently :p

    me: Because few Americans can speak a second language fluently ;) Haven't you met any of us?? lol
    4:11 PM
    Øystein: So how about a nap until say 1 AD just to get things rolling(we can of course shift the date further back later), and then we can move onto more interesting things?

    it was a rethorical question
    4:12 PM
    me: Good - I though you were serious :eek: Should we include a peace proposal in our letter? That could speed things up. If you like it, then we can move directly to more detailed talks on tech, exploration, etc.

    Øystein: that is more than fine by us
    4:14 PM
    me: Quick thought - in case the save comes back around before we send the letter off: There is a barbarian Lion and Warrior close by. You should know where the Lion is, but the warrior is 2 NW of our warrior, on open grassland.

    Øystein: oh and in case it does come around, you can't get around to the south without passing through our culture
    4:16 PM
    Hopefully we'll be able to get a deal signed a done(even if it is just a preliminary deal) before you get the turn back though

    me: I think that was in your letter. In any case, the current thinking is to honor your request that we not move south. Our warrior does need to heal, and we haven't decided where to heal yet. We'll add a peace proposal, and hopefully get something sent off within 24 hours.
    4:17 PM
    Øystein: you guys are off to the west right?

    or north?
    4:18 PM
    me: We came from the north. Like the Vikings ;)

    Øystein: can you tell me about how far to the north you are?
    4:19 PM
    me: Did you guys lose a warrior to that lion earlier?
    4:21 PM
    Øystein: we lost a warrior to a lion around here, not sure it was the same one, 86% odds :'(

    me: The barbs have been ferocious so far. But at least the hills and woods offer a defense bonus
    4:22 PM
    Øystein: this was in a forest across a river, not particulary helpful

    so your capital is on the coast with water to the north then?
    4:24 PM
    me: All I'm going to say just now is that we came from the north, like the Vikings. You'll have to at least take me out to dinner to learn more wink
    4:26 PM
    Øystein: I am sure you'll tell us on your own accord once we get to know each other better, no hurry :)
    4:28 PM
    me: Exactly. We'll have a long and fruitful future, I'm sure. Just now, it seems that we have an advantage in that we know where some of your borders are; that advantage is nullified by a peace treaty - which we'll be posting shortly. Speaking of which, unless there's anything else, i should post this in the forums and get the discussion going on the peace options.

    Øystein: we can continue even after you post everything on the forum ;)

    not fair i would be the only one with running commentary
    4:29 PM
    me: Well, I dont' multitask all that well :) Just give me some time with no interruptions, and I'll poke you when I'm done. Sound good? :)

    Øystein: fine
  4. peter grimes

    peter grimes ...

    Jul 18, 2005
    Queens, New York
    The rest of the chat with Oyzar:

    Spoiler :
    Øystein: Are you working or something atm?

    me: Forum stuff - peace proposal discussion. What's up?
    4:54 PM
    Øystein: aha, just thought we could continue our talks while discussing on the forums at the same time

    me: Not likely - there won't be much that I can say until after you read our response LOL
    4:56 PM
    Øystein: Well certainly you must have some thoughs about short term tech tactics and long term strategic goals, assumine we can work on this together of course
    4:57 PM
    how are you guys working internally? voting everything through the forums, elected people taking responsiblity or what?
    4:58 PM
    me: He he he - yes, I do have thoughts, but my thoughts frequently turn out to be not as good. I had wanted to turn our capital into one type of city, but upon discussion, it turned out to be better suited to a different purpose. In any case, one of us is going to have to get to Alphabet. That's going to take some negotiation. Do you know how soon you could get there?
    8 minutes
    5:06 PM
    Øystein: I think it is a bit hard to figure out who should go for alpha without knowing exactly what techs we have
    5:08 PM
    me: Well, we'll be able to talk more detaled after you sign the peace proposal.

    Øystein: indeed
    5:11 PM
    With tech trading on cooperation is pretty crucial to succeding in this game
    5:12 PM
    me: Yes. The sooner we can get a tech agreement established, the sooner we can pull ahead of the others. I've never played Joao. What are the traits / benefits?
    5:13 PM
    Øystein: Imperialistic / expansive, extra health, faster gg's, double speed granary and harbor and +25% production on workers and +50% on settlers
    5:15 PM
    me: Wow - that's a great combo! I just got BtS a few months ago, so the whole GG thing is new to me. I've tried different things with them, but haven't figured out what's the best for the first. It seems to depend more on the situation at hand. And why don't barbs count towards it? Annoying.

    Øystein: barbs doesn't count towards it because it would be rather too easy to get GG's that way
    5:16 PM
    me: unbalancing that aspect?... I guess that makes sense. For the record, I wanted barbs Off.

    Øystein: You have to look hard to find anyone who hates barbs more than yours truly
    5:18 PM
    me: I used to like them, for the easy xp. But if I'm playing against humans, I just don't see the point. It means we all have to be really careful... to what end? I don't see the benefit more valuable than the cost. btw - what are you studying?
    5:19 PM
    Øystein: to me they make the game less fun, of course it can also sometimes be unbalancing if they happen to win against someone at incredibly odds as well, i am studying engineering in trondheim
    5:21 PM
    they limit expansion and makes it harder for people with more room(or more thundra / jungle too)
    5:22 PM
    This is a game of 5 humans so tech trading is going to be very different from your standard game with AI's
    5:24 PM
    there were GG's in warlords too btw
    13 minutes
    5:38 PM
    Øystein: do you have any idea when you will have a proposal ready?
    12 minutes
    5:50 PM
    Øystein: how many posts do you guys have in your forum?
    5:51 PM
    me: I'm jealous of engineers (industrial and mechanical, specifically). I frequently have to engineer something for work, but I was never taught that stuff formally. Instead I've got to figure stuff out on the fly.
    5:52 PM
    Sorry about that - I got called away. Anyway, I've got to go home now. COrrection: I GET to go home now.
  5. peter grimes

    peter grimes ...

    Jul 18, 2005
    Queens, New York
    Response to our Peace offer:

    Discussion here.
  6. peter grimes

    peter grimes ...

    Jul 18, 2005
    Queens, New York
    Big Triple Alliance chat w/ Methos and Oyzar:

    Øystein: Did you come back?

    me: I'm here. No letter from you guys yet. Chat in our forum is positive so far.

    dustem: That's great news! Yeah, we're still working on our letter

    me: That's cool. We're pretty much just waiting to hear from you. Can you say if there will be specific technology trading details in the letter?

    dustem: wait a sec, phone
    yes, there will, though it is more in your favor then ours

    me: We'll be the judge of that LOL

    dustem: though I must point out, that our tech trade offer would rely on your agreement to enter the alliance, and not just the tech deal

    me: That shouldn't be a problem - but it's good to make sure everyone is on the same page. Since I told you the techs we have, can you reciprocate?

    dustem: actually we did, apparently it isn't showing
    let me paste it
    Øystein Arneson: We have fishing, wheel, ag, myst, mining, bw, med, pottery, priesthood
    Øystein Arneson has left.

    me: Thanks :) Do you know if the letter will come today? (i'm GMT -5)

    dustem: we're doing our best to get it out as soon as possible
    its getting everyone online that is difficult

    me: I understand that completely. We have close to half the team in Germany, a couple Spaniards, a Portuguese, and a handful of Yanks.
    Oh - a couple of Dutchmen as well :)

    dustem: where are you located at? I'm in Missouri

    Øystein: We are all over the world as well

    me: I'm in NYC. Grew up in Connecticut. I wish there were some Eastern Asians on our team, but I dont' see many on the forums at all.

    dustem: Let me at least explain the jist of our letter, to better prepare your team for its contents

    me: ok

    dustem: we current have an alliance with another team and we are looking for a third partner
    we are hoping you are it
    this alliance currently is based on tech research, though we have long term plans and obligations as well
    we are hoping you will help us further our cooperational research
    if you could research certain techs, we would be willing to trade you quite a few techs in return

    me: Does the third team have contact with SANCTA?

    dustem: no

    me: that's good - we don't need to make any techs cheaper for SANCTA.

    dustem: definitely agree

    me: Will this be structured as 3 equal partners?

    dustem: yes
    basically we all research predefined techs and trade them amongst each other

    me: Have you worked out which techs each team does, or is that still being determined?

    dustem: we have already determined what techs they and us our researching and have made considerations on what techs we would hope that you would research

    We were hoping you'd research IW and Sailing for us and in return, you'd be getting Alpha + Monarchy + their prereqs

    me: Will we be working towards joint military cooperation against SANCTA?... I know it's really early to be jumping that far ahead, but I can say from the last game that if we don't gun for them, they will gun for us.

    dustem: so far joint military discussions haven't been brought up, though that is always a possibility

    first we were hoping that through cooperation we could advance our three teams, shortening the strong lead sancta has

    me: Yes, we must keep it in the backs of our minds. I believe that the closer we work together in tech and trade, the more natural it will be to cooperate in military as well.

    dustem: that is my own opinion as well, though it is up to the team to decide

    me: Of course. One of the biggest lessons I learned from the last game is that teams that don't work together will surely fail together. Sort of like what Franklin said :)

    dustem: hehe
    I assume your team will wish a formal letter in regards to what we are discussing, so we'll definitely get that sent. but hopefully this will give your team a head start on any discussions that are required

    me: Yes, email is always best to lay out the detailed stuff. I'll post this chat - it's full of things to talk about :) Just one thing...
    I had asked if you had met anyone, and the answer was No. But now it seems you have met someone. I'm not sure what I missed?

    dustem: One of our agreements in our alliance was that any discussions with another team regarding joining the alliance must first be discussed amongst our two teams
    So unfortunately we had to answer in that way until we could discuss your own team

    me: That sounds reasonable. I've been on teams before that had the same sort of arrangement.
    So are we finished for today? Can I post this chat now?
    It's been very productive :)

    dustem: Sure. If you have any more questions feel free to ask.
    I'll be online for a couple more hours before I have to leave for work

    me: Great. Thanks!
  7. peter grimes

    peter grimes ...

    Jul 18, 2005
    Queens, New York
    Letter from Cav - received before we have formally agreed to join the alliance:

    Dear Mad Ones,

    we look forward to your reply to our proposal, and are eager to start
    negotiating the details of our alliance. In the mean time, we bring
    you word from our other friends, who wished to send their greetings.
    Please find attached a papyrus scroll straight from the proud people
    of Kazakhstan.

    In friendship,
    Niklas dos Cavaleiros

  8. peter grimes

    peter grimes ...

    Jul 18, 2005
    Queens, New York
    Chat with Oyzar
    Discussion here.

    me: got a second?

    Øystein: ye

    me: I'm pretty sure we're going to formally join the Alliance. Nobody has expressed grave reservations yet, and discussion has been going on all weekend. So this is really good news.

    Øystein: Did you guys start on your next tech yet?

    me: I'm not sure - I'm just catching up after being gone all weekend. I know that as of Friday we had 2 turns left on Hunting.

    Øystein: what are you going to research next?

    me: Im' reading the thread now. There's a lot of reasons for us to do AH before IW.

    Øystein: you can trade for AH... so researching it yourself is just wasted beakers

    me: Actually, on the next page of discussion it turns out the arguments for IW won! That point was raised - about trading for it :)
    We won't have it on t60, though.

    Øystein: Are you doing IW before archery and sailing?

    me: yes

    Øystein: do you guys have copper?

    me: don't need copper for our UU - the Holkan ;)

    Øystein: Sailing is a very important economic tech, if it is delayed it'll cost us a lot, any idea when you will get IW if you go for it next?
    holkan doesn't beat axes though...
    so do you have copper or not?

    me: Are you saying that you'd prefer us to do sailing before IW?

    Øystein: well depends on when you'll get it, but sailing is more important if you can get necesarry defense in time(archers or traded for AH and find horses) sailing is instant +1 commerce for each city if you've met someone per sea pretty much

    and if you could disclose your position more i am sure we could figure out when that would happen
    (or rivers obviously)

    me: We should be able to trade along the coast. We haven't explored the entire route yet, but I'm pretty sure that's in the near-term plans. I don't recall off the top of my head how the rivers are laid out.

    Do you have a coastal route w/ Kas yet?

    Øystein: yep

    me: That's great! That means that we'll get the route eventually as well.

    Øystein: So when will you get iw if you go for it next? 65? 70?
    How are you compared to where you met us? north and west or north and east? and roughly how far? certainly you'll have screenshots of everything in the forum so it is not like you need to login to check the overview of the land no?

    me: IW: how many beakers is it?... land: go north to the mountains, then head west. I'll look now for river routes....

    Øystein: roughly how many squares?

    me: ...checking...

    Øystein: iw is 200 base so 299 then

    299 beakers

    me: ugh.. then I think it's going to be about 12 turns or so.
    no - more like 30. btw, we're about 15 north and 15 west from you, roughly. river route negative - it's got to be coastal. Have you fully explored the area around the lake to your west?

    Øystein: nope

    15 west eh, thats quite far

    me: About how far is Kaz from you?

    Øystein: at 30 bpt it'll take ~9 turns to finish IW

    me: we need some cash first, that's why I said about 12.

    Øystein: further away than you, don't recall exactly now
    over 30 tiles i think

    me: along the same coast?... our workboat will need open borders with you to reach them.

    Øystein: If you could come up with an official letter that would make a lot of people in my team happy, that said we would probably prefer if you go sailing and archery before IW though...

    you have a workboat sailing east?

    me: The workboat completes shortly, then will head to the lake area to complete explorations. That should also open up a trade route between us. the workboat will take a minimum of 10 turns to reach you, depending on the size of the peninsula to your west.

    Øystein: 10 turns to reach us? I really doubt that

    certainly you would have to sail west before you could sail south? or have you explored along the coast already?

    me: minimum of 10. If there is no more land at all, most direct route, etc. etc. we have explored most of the coast between us already - just need to clear up that penisula a bit. Did Kaz's explorer find you, or did you guys find them?

    Øystein: We found them i guess

    me: Interesting world we're in, no?

    Øystein: yep
    I wonder where the other teams are though
    I was thinking they might be to the west of us...

    me: We wonder the same thing. Another of our explorers has been out even longer, and ventured much farther, and has yet to meet anyone. I also wonder if all teams can reach eachother over land.

    Øystein: in which direction did he go?

    me: east. What direction is Kaz from you?

    Øystein: east

    me: There are barriers to north-south exploration. But you probably know that already ;)

    Øystein: Yeah loads of mountains

    me: I play maps like these against a friend of mine - but only when we play accelerated start & always war

    Øystein: So is your capital on coast facing north or south?

    me: neither. btw - we haven't settled copper yet. Do you have it?

    Øystein: you are on coast facing west?

    me: Correct!


    Øystein: We haven't settled copper yet no, btw are there any resources in the vincity of where your warrior near our land is(in your direction) of note?

    me: I'll check....
    I can't really tell... our screenshots don't have the resources turned on. When I go into the game later I'll check.
    gotta go for now. I'll be back later, though :)

    Øystein: cya
    when will you guys send an official letter?

    me: I'd like to do it today. It will also include a postcard that we'd like you to pass on to Kazakhstan.

    Øystein: will you hold the turn until then?

    me: I doubt it, but I don't know HUSch's schedule.

    Øystein: Well to us sailing and archery is more important to iw(and a lot cheaper)
    so it would be nice if you went for those first...
  9. peter grimes

    peter grimes ...

    Jul 18, 2005
    Queens, New York

    SENT: 2/10/09
  10. peter grimes

    peter grimes ...

    Jul 18, 2005
    Queens, New York
    Chat with Niklas
    - Info on Kaz location
    - rumors of geography
    - their tech plans
    - history of Oracle

    Niklas: hello there

    me: Hi!... you caught me ;)

    Niklas: caught? trying to hide?

    me: If I were, I wasn't doing a very good job, right?

    Niklas: hehe, indeed not
    great news that you decided to join the alliance
    I have a draft version for the formal treaty up now, should send it off in not too long

    me: Yes, we're pretty excited. It's the sort of arrangement we were hoping to find before we had met anyone.

    Niklas: aye, it's pretty much perfect
    did you come to a decision regarding tech order?

    me: We're doing IW next. It's the most useful tech, short term. Lots of jungle out there.

    Niklas: ok, we understand
    neither we nor Kaz have any jungle, so we're less in need of it
    hence why we preferred sailing
    but it's good news that you have jungle, it means our resources are bound to be different
    good for trading :)

    me: Yes. Also, we'll be able to trade more beakers immediately.

    Niklas: any ETA on IW?

    me: Hmmm... gimme a moment to check the forums.

    Niklas: no rush, just curious :)

    me: should be about 12 turns, as I mentioned to Oyzar. I guess we've only done 1 turn since then??

    Niklas: ok
    that's good

    me: What are you researching next?

    Niklas: we will complete Monarchy on turn 68 I believe, after that it will most likely be Mathematics
    while Kaz goes for CoL
    to set us up for an early Civil Service

    me: That makes sense. Will Kaz be able to get a religion from CoL, or did SANCTA already preclude that?

    Niklas: no, SANCTA took either Alphabet or Metal Casting from the oracle

    me: Oh, that's right... I keep forgetting that the CS slingshot doesn't work in BtS.

    Niklas: well, it does work, it's just a bit longer since you have to get maths too
    but in a MP game there's no way really

    me: Yeah - it's no longer as simple as getting CoL first. But Memphus pulled it off in the last one, the jerk!

    Niklas: lol

    me: I can say that, because I was on the same team :)

    Niklas: haha, great achievement

    me: It was indeed - 1800 bc, if I recall.

    Niklas: not sure if you knew, but we were trying to pull off a feudalism slingshot
    in this game that is

    me: I didn't know about Feudalism, but we figured you were shooting for the Oracle.

    Niklas: we were getting Writing from Kaz to be able to take it on turn 68
    but SANCTA preferred to do a lightning strike denial
    I mean, MC or Alpha is not really worth the hammers at this stage, so they presumably did it more to avoid that we got something good from it
    which is of course clever too

    me: Gold is always useful for research. Denial is almost as good a reason as any, right?

    Niklas: definitely

    me: Which civ is the non-financial one, do you know?

    Niklas: ours

    me: LOL... no wonder you wanted us and Kaz!!

    Niklas: well, we're not too worried, we're good in other respects :)
    fast expansion will allow us to catch up to you in the mid game, when financial becomes weaker
    but right now we're definitely one notch below in teching capacity

    me: Indeed... We are still arguing over the dot-map.

    Niklas: yeah, we have some heated discussions over that too

    me: Of course, my biggest worry is the number of barbarians. They're everywhere!

    Niklas: well, you have holkans, you don't really need to worry much :)
    until axemen come along that is

    me: That's true, but Holkans don't last super long. Besides - they still cost hammers that we'd rather put into settlers.

    Niklas: yeah
    same here (well, not the holkans, but... :))

    me: That's why I was against barbs. But it's OK.

    Niklas: our team was pretty unanimously against them too
    but we'll cope with it :)

    me: Do you know if the postcard was forwarded to Kaz?

    Niklas: yep

    me: Excellent. I think it's going to be a while before we meet them in-game.

    Niklas: they are situated pretty much due east of us

    me: But we don't have anyone near there... and there are barriers to travel everywhere we look ;)

    Niklas: yeah
    Kaz tells us that there seems to be some sort of passage in the middle of the continent, a hub where all the mountain ranges open up

    me: That would be interesting - sort of the opposite of the last cIV mtdg... where there was a central ocean instead of a central plain.

    Niklas: we have yet to see it with our own eyes though
    you have a workboat sailing along the coast towards us right?

    me: Did the Kaz explorer make it all the way to your lands?

    Niklas: no
    not yet at any rate

    me: So there's no chance of our Warrior encountering them near where he is (in the valley to the north of you)?

    Niklas: most likely not no
    he would have to travel eastwards, probably north east to reach this "hub" where their warrior was last

    me: I know we still have to heal a bit - but I don't remember if there's still a barbarian animal around.

    Niklas: not that we can see, there was another lion but he was deleted

    me: Just looked - Anaxagoras is the name. Yes, he killed the lion in 1720. (last turn). HUSch is playing now.
    OKay, I've got to go now. Nice chatting!

    Niklas: alright, we'll pass the formal treaty proposal along shortly :)
    talk to you later!
  11. peter grimes

    peter grimes ...

    Jul 18, 2005
    Queens, New York
    Letter from Os Cavaleiros, including The Treaty:

    Letter sent to Os Cavaleiros, accepting the treaty:

  12. peter grimes

    peter grimes ...

    Jul 18, 2005
    Queens, New York
    Chat with Niklas
    - more intel on geography
    - KAZ has met SANCTA
    - layout of The Globe
    - trade route discussion
    - settlement boundaries
    - future techs beyond IW, Sailing, etc.
    - Alphabet is in, CAV is ready to trade

    me: I'm ready whenever you are :)

    Niklas: same here :)
    I'm correcting lab assignments, can't think of more boring work, so I'm glad for some relief ;)
    what I wanted to talk to you about is the future in general
    lemme grab some notes...
    ok, first of all, Kaz got alphabet this turn and the first trade has gone through :)

    me: That's great! I'm checking now to see how far we are from IW- it was 7 turns when I drafted the note...

    Niklas: next turn we should receive alphabet (I think), and could start trading things to you in turn
    another thing of note is that Kaz has met SANCTA

    me: I understand that KAZ is mostly due east of you... any idea where SANCTA is? Do you know how they met?

    Niklas: yes
    Kaz met them via workboat, sailing pretty much straight north from them
    so they should be quite some ways east of you
    we're guesstimating that saturn is between you and sancta

    me: We have a warrior that is far to the east (and north) of you. It's possible we'll encounter SAN before SAT.

    Niklas: maybe so
    do you have any workboats out?

    me: Yes, but heading north, not south.

    Niklas: towards where we expect saturn to be then?

    me: Possibly - if they have a coastal start, of course. It seems that everyone does. The wb left just a couple of turns ago, so it will be a long journey!

    Niklas: they definitely have a coastal start
    no team had 9 land area on the first turn ;-)

    me: Good catch ;-) Our warrior is east of the 'hub', we believe. But we didn't map anything that seemed to be a hub - the avenues may have been in the fog.

    Niklas: ok, well, we only have Kaz' word on it and they may have made a guess only
    our own warrior scouts have been less than lucky
    we've had three eaten by animals :-(

    me: Our warrior has mapped a Grand Valley, extending from us to the far east. OMG - that's terrible luck! Especially with all the forested hills!

    Niklas: yeah, two of them had great odds to win and yet didn't

    me: We are having to be very careful with our escorts - that's for certain.

    Niklas: one of them was in a forest, across a river, facing a lion
    2 vs 2 strength, and +95% bonus

    me: That's just gratuitious!

    Niklas: good thing we had our workboat to make contact

    me: ok

    Niklas: back

    me: One thing we'd like to talk about is settlement boundaries. Can you talk about that?

    Niklas: and yeah, gratuitious indeed, that's why we voted no barbs :p

    me: lol :)

    Niklas: hmm, I'm not sure we have enough scouting knowledge to know what relevants boundaries would be
    do you feel that you risk settling "too close" to us in the near future?

    me: There are a couple of areas where either of us could wind up putting a city, that, without a formal agreement, could lead to tensions. We thought it would be smart to set up an agreement just in case.

    Niklas: we should definitely have such an agreement, what I wonder is if there is a rush, or if you could let us scout out our surroundings a bit more before it becomes relevant
    for the record we just got AH from sancta and have horses, so scouting should be a bit faster in a short while :)

    me: Yes, definitely scout first. We are not about to settle a city close to you, but, we also were taken by surprise when you settled near our warrior. We see the Mountain Ridges on either side of your new city as being a natural boundary.
    AH from SANCTA?...

    Niklas: eh, Kaz of course :)

    me: Good cover - your freudian slip is safe with me :)

    Niklas: Cimeira Loucos, named in your honor, is not very far from our capitol
    are you saying you feel that it is in what might be contested lands?
    and lol, no deals with sancta, never! :-D

    me: brb

    Niklas: sure

    me: back. No, that city is not in contested lands. but on the other side of the mountains becomes tricky. That's why we see the mountains running north / south as a natural boundary.

    Niklas: you mean the mountains west of Cimeira?

    me: Yes, those west of Cimeira.

    Niklas: ok, then I agree, we too see those mountains as a boundary and have no plans to settle past them anytime soon (and definitely not without your consent)
    but without further knowledge, it's hard to say anything for sure of course

    me: Then I think we are in perfect agreement - we also will not settle on 'your' side of the mountains. Of course you need to scout before you can swear to this sort of thing. But we're just talking about the principle. This was the sort of thing we were considering trying to write into The Treaty - but decided it was best handled between us, as it doesn't concern KAZ.

    Niklas: indeed, good call
    and I'm sure it won't lead to any disputes

    me: Do you know if you'll have any surplus resources soon?

    Niklas: I'm not sure actually
    I should check the map more often :)
    I think we have a surplus source of wheats
    but of course we need a trade route first

    me: I'm pretty sure we'll have bananas (after calendar)to trade... We'll also have extra dyes at that point. Calendar is going to open up a lot of things for us. It's one of our priorities.

    Niklas: understood
    after calendar we will have incence, and we should have wines some time after monarchy once we get around to settling them

    me: Speaking of Trade Routes... We can get one set up, but it won't be with the next settler. I'm not sure of the details, but it could be the second settler. But don't quote me! ;-)

    Niklas: oh - set up how?
    is there a natural connection somehow?

    me: See?... it all comes back to your need to scout :) If I tell you the details, can you tell me some juicy geographic tidbit we don't know?

    Niklas: hehe, I'd need to go look at our maps then

    me: I can wait... if you think it's worth it LOL

    Niklas: well, I definitely want to know how and when trade can be possible between us

    me: Trade routes are possible. I can tell you exactly how, but I'll get yelled at if I don't get anything in return :( (i'm not joking - it's happened!)

    Niklas: I'm looking at the maps now
    not sure what I could tell you that you would find interesting
    we have a workboat sailing up the coast to our west
    right now it is located pretty much due west of Cimeira
    probably 10 tiles or so west of Cimeira, I have no good overview map that shows both

    me: That's good news - your workboat may map the Lake Peninsula before we do. We'd like to know more about how to locate KAZ, actually. Did you follow a mountian valley?

    Niklas: we found them via workboat
    they are located some 30 tiles, and a handful south, of our capitol, along a fairly straight coastline

    me: I thought Oystein mentioned walking due east. I'm probably mistaken... Where is that wb now?

    Niklas: eh, 30 tiles east
    that workboat has since continued sailing north from them, they are located in the southeastern "corner" of the continent
    we've sailed northeast and are just about to round a cape pretty far north of them
    we passed their capitol on turn 48, so we've gone some way since
    we should be closing in on sancta soonish actually

    me: Now I understand why you presume SATURN to be north of us.

    Niklas: indeed
    sancta is pretty much straight north of kaz
    and I believe you are somewhere northwest of us?
    so that would put the distance between you and sancta at the longest between any of us four, and thus the logical place for the fifth team to be

    me: OK - I'll talk now :) But one thing I need to mention here: The Triple Alliance needs to have a plan in place for dealing with SANCTA. but first....
    we can set up a trade route using the river that flows from CL. It passes between the mountains, and empties into the Lake that's on the peninsula your newer wb is about to explore.

    Niklas: hmm, I can see your warrior standing on a forested hill right next to what appears to be the end of said river
    3W of CL

    me: We have a plan to get a city onto that peninsula (again, I'm not sure which settler is going there), and with a few well-placed roads, we'll have a TR

    Niklas: is that the lake you are talking about?

    me: ..checking...
    Ah,,, I'm mistaken... you're right. The tile Anaxagoras is on will require a road. That road will connect to the hill on the other side of the pass (yes - it's a pass!) and this will complete the trade route to us.

    Niklas: ok, that's good, and we can easily supply that road
    oh, wait

    me: But as I said - it's going to be some turns still.

    Niklas: which tile is Anaxagoras on?
    you've moved since this shot was taken
    is he still 3W of CL?
    or 4W?

    me: In the turn 1480 screenshots, he's on the tile 4w - on a plains hill just west of the river (which I mistakenly thought passed through the mountains)

    Niklas: right, then I'm with you, that makes sense
    on my shot he is on the forest 3W of CL, and I couldn't get it into my head how a road there would help :)

    me: Have you explored west through the pass at all?

    Niklas: no, nothing
    the tile you say Anaxagoras is on now is the farthest of our knowledge in that direction
    this is where we lost that warrior to a lion
    and our recent warrior, a bit north of Anaxagoras now, was sent northwards since we didn't move close enough to the range to see the pass
    so your information is highly valuable!

    me: So sad... you really had terrible luck. So do you want your warrior to find us, or to find Saturn?... or maybe find The Hub?
    valuable - that's why i needed to get something in return ;-)

    Niklas: I think our warrior is better of going north now, our workboat should find your lands
    haha, indeed, and I'm sorry if I don't have enough to give, but I will freely share all we know
    it's not for lack of will, but for lack of data, that we have little to share

    me: When your warrior exits the valley, and the north/south mountain ranges end, he will be in the Grand Valley that our boldest warrior has mapped. Head East, and you should find the hub.

    Niklas: ok, thank you

    me: btw - you're going to have a dynamite city north or CL. 2 gem tiles!
    *north OF cl

    Niklas: we have mapped out the land east of us a bit more, there is a larger flat area there where have the wines and wheats
    oh - that's great!
    how far north?

    me: I'm looking now...

    Niklas: we have visibility 4N of CL, our warrior will soon extend that though

    me: ok - is there a plains hill 2N of CL?

    Niklas: yes
    just outside its current borders

    me: ..with river grass on its west, and plais forest on its east?

    Niklas: indeed
    and three plains NNN, NNNW and NNNE

    me: Hmmm - That's not what I'm looking at. Most of our screenshots are highly zoomed, and spread among many threads. I'm having trouble locating enough shots to piece together where the gems are in relation. But your warrior will certainly find them. The only bad thing is they are jungle hill gems. And I don't remember a river, but I could be wrong.

    Niklas: heh, oh well, we'll find them, thanks a lot for that info :)
    we have a Played Turns thread with all the screenshots in it

    me: I prefer the setup we have on The Council... but it's fine. We're still finding our system.

    Niklas: understood

    me: Do you know where KAZ's explorer is - the one who discovered The Hub?

    Niklas: no idea I'm afraid
    I could ask them for that information, but it hasn't been relevant to us yet

    me: We'd like to know where The Hub is - and you will want to know for your warrior. A verbal description will be time consuming, though. I'll try to spend some time looking at the map tomorrow at work.

    Niklas: ok, sounds good
    I will probably have to leave very shortly

    me: That's cool - I'm glad we had a chance to do this.

    Niklas: one thing I wanted to discuss though, which has been lost in the interesting information so far, is your thoughts on tech progression past the near goals
    what techs do you see as important, and what goals do you have for your own development?

    me: I was hoping you wouldn't ask that... this conversation is spread around in a few different threads, and I've had a hard time keeping track of it. The best I can say right now is that I'll have to set up a thread in our forum to solidify our thoughts. We'll have something concrete to offer by the middle of next week, realistically.

    Niklas: hmm, well, I really think that this is something that would be best discussed *together*, through all three teams, since it will take a long time for each team to come to a decision on its own, only to find that the other teams have other ideas
    of course there needs to be a discussion in the teams, but it would be good if we could talk continuously, to feel the temperature and give input to our teams from each other

    me: Very good point. We will also have different goals depending on the alliance's goals as a unit - how do we handle SANTCA, who will build which wonders, etc. Have you had chats with KAZ on this yet?
    Oh yeah - which wonders must we DENY to Sancta, as well.

    Niklas: yes, we have, and we are keen to include you in them, since it's hard to decide on anything without knowing your thoughts
    Kaz are very keen on building the Great Library for instance, both because they themselves are philosophical, and to deny it from S/S

    me: Do we know if Saturn and Sancta have met??

    Niklas: no, we have no indication of that
    SANCTA are putting full EP towards Kaz, but that could be by choice of course, we did the same towards you when we first met you

    me: Yes, we noticed :) I have to go soon.

    Niklas: aye, me too
    I'll just give you the state of the discussion on our side now, and you can try to start a discussion in your team
    Kaz want to go for CoL next, since they want a religion
    we will probably go for Maths, in order to set us up for Civil Service after
    which requires CoL and Maths
    but Kaz are worried that Sancta will go for Literature, and will probably try to propose that you go down that route soonish, though they have yet to say so out loud
    there is of course also the inevitable question of "what's in it for us" if Kaz build GLib, but that's something we'll have to discuss further

    me: OK - I'll try to get something concrete to you about the next tech path... perhaps by the end of the weekend? Stacey and I are going skiing this weekend, but I should still have a little time. I can tell you that we have discussed Hanging Gardens (we've a pretty poor start!); but more importantly for The Alliance - The Apostolic Palace. This could open up a pretty interesting avenue for the three of us...
    OK, I have to meet Stacey now. Thanks again, and have fun grading labs!!

    Niklas: cya :)
    and I can tell you we've discussed Hanging Gardens too :)
    but we'll talk more later, have fun skiing!
  13. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

    Feb 2, 2003
    Arizona, USA (it's a dry heat)
    Received in the team email:

    Dear Mad Scientists,

    We are delighted to learn that you have accepted the treaty! Let us
    raise a non-alcoholic toast (who's the crazy person who mandated you
    need monarchy to build vineyards, anyway?) to our glorious future. As
    our friends in Kazakhstan have already stated their approval of the
    treaty in its current form, you may consider it to be in effect
    immediately. As such, we have extended an open borders offer to you,
    and your warriors may enjoy our hospitality if they so desire.

    We welcome our recent trades of knowledge, and anticipate more such
    trades in the future! We are but 2 turns from acquiring the knowledge
    of kings and princes [end of our turn 67]. Will you be able to
    clarify the date of your acquisition of iron-working, and sailing
    after that? We have great need to make plans for the future, and
    would welcome your input. We can tell you that our friends in
    Kazakhstan have begun their research into a Code of Laws and we will
    most likely pursue knowledge of Mathematics next, but further
    decisions are in flux.

    As regards matters outside of our alliance: As our emissaries have
    already conveyed, our Kazakh friends have come across a foreign people
    in their explorations, who refer to themselves as Ninjas -- surely not
    an epithet that would be chosen by a civilized race. They are located
    far to the north and east of our cities, roughly north of Kazakhstan
    on our continent's north coast. We expect to make contact with them
    ourselves in the near future [about turn 70]. Discussions are underway
    as to how best to deal with these outsiders, and we would appreciate
    your input. To aid in your own deliberations, we offer the following

    -- SANCTA's techs appear to be: fishing, agriculture, mining,
    bronze-working, wheel, pottery, animal husbandry, mysticism,
    meditation, priesthood, hunting and metal-casting. They imply that
    they are studying iron-working.
    -- Kazahkstan has agreed to a proposal from SANCTA in which Kazakhstan
    declares war in order for their workboat to pass SANCTA's borders,
    with negotiations to resume when peace is re-signed. As of now,
    nothing has been traded between them. Kazakhstan covets metal-casting,
    but is not willing to give up alphabet to get it.
    -- SANCTA's capital is called Inner Sanctum; they have copper and fish
    in the vicinity and have built a granary and at least one axeman. The
    Oracle is in a different city.
    -- By this point, SANCTA must be aware of our three-way trade alliance.
    -- SANCTA appears to have ivory within their borders, as evidenced by
    the current size and state of their capital, their presumed GNP, and
    their latitude.

    We appreciate that you shared the story of your scouts' penetration
    deep into the interior of our continent. As you are aware, overland
    scouting is one area in which we are deficient, and we would be most
    grateful to learn of any strategic discoveries your scouts might make;
    in particular, the existence of any passes. We are also very happy to
    learn that you have sent a workboat to your northeast. We ourselves
    have two workboats exploring; one, as mentioned, should meet SANCTA
    soon. The other, you may have noticed, has finally reached civilized
    land [i.e. your borders] after a very long sail. We are pleased that
    trade routes will now be possible.

    We would also like to inform you that our wisemen have foreseen that
    the wild peoples of the world are very soon to acquire better weapons
    [barb axes will start spawning 50-50 with warriors as of turn 66]. In
    order to improve your defenses against such barbarity, we would like
    you to know, in case you have not explored there yet, that there are
    horses not too far away from where our workboat now floats. [At the
    point to the southeast where the coastline turns sharply south, there
    are three desert hills west to east. The western two hills have a
    southern coast. The eastern hill has a desert tile directly south of
    it with a plains tile south of that. On that plains tile is horses.]
    We hope this may be of some use to you.

    In friendship,
    Renata dos Cavaleiros​
  14. peter grimes

    peter grimes ...

    Jul 18, 2005
    Queens, New York
    Quick chat with Methos
    - informed him that we met SANCTA
    - explained state of war, and possible cease-fire
    - told him where we met
    - explained why we didn't accept tech trades
    - 6 turns to sailing
    - they will get back to us about where KAZ is in relation to Aristotle

    me: Got some time?

    dustem: sure. whats up?

    me: We've met Sancta. Far to the east, a wandering Axe.
    Memphus misclicked, and declared war. He then offered us a ceasefire. We're going to accept the ceasefire.

    dustem: lol, thats funny but sucks

    me: Yeah. btw - I've been gone for a few days, so I'm still catching up on stuff. No, we moved and saw him on a hill.

    dustem: between kaz's very odd intro to sancta and you're dow'ing on them, they've got to wonder
    just curious, but why aren't you guys wanting alphabet and monarchy?
    whoops, memphus is on sancta, my mstake

    me: We didn't declare. That's right - Memphus (SANCTA) misclicked when trying to go into the diplo screen. He had already pressed ALT... In any case, Axe vs. warrior means we'd lose that battle anyway. So we're going to try to keep exploring in that direction. We think we're beyond KAZ at this point, so we should hit the coast soon.

    We encountered him about 30 tiles east of your new city (what's its name again?), at about the same latitude.

    dustem: Cimeira
    we believe our wb will meet them next turn
    I don't have time right now, but later I'll log in and see about where in relation to Kaz you are

    me: That's right. Cimeira Loca. Regarding techs: We declined Monarchy because we don't need it yet. We declined Alphabet because we don't want SANCTA or SATURN to see our techs yet (we still haven't met SATURN). We will ask for them when we need them. We have started research on Sailing. It's about 6 turns away, at the longest.

    dustem: ok, was curious
    have to go pick my wife up for lunch, so I'll be back later

    me: HUSch is very keen on not letting the other teams know anything more than necessary through demo screen and civstats. CYA!
  15. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

    Feb 2, 2003
    Arizona, USA (it's a dry heat)
    Received via PM:

  16. peter grimes

    peter grimes ...

    Jul 18, 2005
    Queens, New York
    Letter from Oyzar of Os Cavaleiros:

  17. peter grimes

    peter grimes ...

    Jul 18, 2005
    Queens, New York
    Chat with Oyzar, discussing the above letter. Actually chatted while I was drafting my response to the letter :rolleyes:

    me: Hi - are you still awake?

    Øystein: I guess

    me: It's not time-critical - I just read your letter.
    If you'd rather chat tomorrow or Sunday, that's fine.

    Øystein: well if you got things to tell me you could always say them now :)

    me: Sure :) Initial thoughts: KAZ going for CS is smart. But why are they detouring through Monotheism? Is it only for the religion?

    Øystein: well they also had to wait for us to finish math

    me: True... I don't know if it's wise to trade Sailing and Monarchy at the same time. Can we give you Sailing when we play the save, and then get Monarchy from you on the following turn or two?

    I'm worried about SANCTA figuring out that we are allied with you two.

    Øystein: Well we would prefer sailing before we end our turn... getting it during our turn would look best anyways...
    and i think sancta will find out sooner or later anyways...

    me: Yes, they will find out sooner or later. But as long as they are guessing (and until The Triple Alliance has Metal Casting from them) I think we should guard our secrets. Did you request Sailing from us already in-game?

    Øystein: I don't think so, not sure though

    me: If you haven't, then I will instruct HUSch to offer you Sailing for nothing. Then in a turn or two, we'll request Monarchy from you. Does that work?

    Øystein: Sure, but are you sure you don't need monarchy sooner(i am surprised you have waited this long given how important tech it is most of the time...) the ability to grow cities is very powerful.

    me: Yes, I know that we want to grow larger as soon as possible... but the micro-managers on the team know more about that than I. btw - you had asked if there's anyone else to contact on our team. Daveshack is around a lot. But I don't know if he chats.
    ...and he's no MMer :)

    Øystein: I don't think he have IM, i've asked him before

    me: regarding tech: We were hoping to do Monotheism, but I'm not sure precisely why. That's why I was wondering if KAZ has their heart set on it.

    Øystein: Well why do you want mono? for the civic? That can be fixed, you don't actually need the religion do you?

    me: We already are Hindoo - so I doubt it's for the religion. ACtually, I suspect it is indeed for the civic: that's like a free forge in every city. Of course, most of our cities are tiny right now.

    Øystein: Then, I am sure it can be aranged that you get mono too...
    there is no reason to not share all techs eventually after all

    me: Yes, of course. But for the next research goal... I'm checking our forum to see what we were discussing...

    Øystein: right
    Did your team discuss aestics / calendar / construction at all?

    me: Well, all of the discussion has centered around Masonry and Monotheism so far. And there are some who don't want to research a tech [Aesthetics] just so that someone else can build a wonder - unless there's a way to compensate. You understand the emotion, I'm sure. We haven't discussed Calendar nor Construction.

    Øystein: Well you can build wonders too....

    me: I don't think there's really a way to compensate for that, except to be granted a right to build a different wonder. like you just said :)

    Øystein: Well look at it another way, if they researched aestics and you researched CS instead you would get CS way slower for example...
    while the same amount of beakers would have been spent on aestics

    me: Are Aesthetics and CS the same cost?

    Øystein: nope

    me: I thought CS was far more expensive.

    Øystein: CS is indeed far more expensive

    me: just re-read, and now I understand your point. Just so you know, my own personal style of play is that when there is a partnership, each member is stronger with the gains of the other. In other words, with KAZ building Great Library, that benefits all 3 of us.

    Øystein: I don't see the problem though.. The whole point of a tech alliance is that everyone should get access to what they need as as they need it/as fast as possible... The technicalities of beakers(at least to me) is secondary

    me: I'm in complete agreement, but not every Mad Scientist sees it that way.

    Øystein: well post this log then at least ;) And uh, you don't plan to double research mono do you?

    me: I'd rather we didn't double research - that just stunts all of us. I think the 'safety' tech should be Calendar - it's necessary eventually, and we've got lots of stuff that could use a plantation.

    Øystein: For us the value of calendar would be close to zero and would likely mean some of us would have to double back to do aestics anyways...

    me: ...looking at the tech tree now... [I don't know it inside and out ;-)]
    5 minutes

    me: You know, the more I look at the tree, the more I think it makes sense for us to do Aesthetics... and then something more utilitarian. Personally, I really like the Shwedagon Paya :) But I've never built it without gold. I'm pretty sure we don't have gold, but don't quote me on that.

    Øystein: Well there is also music giving a free artist at the end of that line...

    me: you'll have to work a little harder to sell me on a free GA. ;-) What's so great about that?

    Øystein: well it can bulb theology if you have drama, or it could start a golden age at some point

    me: Yeah, Golden Ages are useful... but I have a feeling that's not going to be a selling point for us. Don't worry, though - whatever tech we do, I'll do my best to see that it isn't one that you or KAZ is already doing (or planning to do). I'm going to push for Aesthetics...

    Øystein: It is not really about pushing for any given tech, it is about working out which is best for all parties together...

    me: Yes. But I think you're wrong about Calendar having zero benefit if you consider all three teams ;-)

    Øystein: sure :)

    me: So to wrap up: We
    ..will offer you Sailing on our turn...

    Øystein: before that no?
    We need it before we end our turn to get the benefit
    it is one wasted beaker per city pretty much

    me: I don't follow - how can you get it any earlier??

    Øystein: I thought you gott it hitting enter last turn?

    me: ..checking...
    Correct. We now have it.
    ps- so does someone else, I think.

    Øystein: how do you know? From your gnp?`
    you would have been able to tell if you had alpha, but i guess kaz can tell anyways, they just met saturn btw

    me: I'm looking...
    SANCTA appears to have it... you should see it next turn. Did KAZ find them with a wb?

    Øystein: yeah, we met sancta too

    me: You've known SANCTA for several turns now. You didn't notice that clever bit I sent them where I asked if they attacked an explorer of yours?? I consider it one of my finer moments :)

    Øystein: maybe you could log in to offer it to us?

    me: I can't - I'm at home, and I only have civ at work. But I'll be at work in less than 12 hours :( However, I can't really do anything like that without a majority of the team agreeing - I'm not the turnplayer.

    Øystein: right
    I'll post this chat on the forums
    If you could get someone to offer sailing to us that would be great

    me: Sounds good. I'll do what I can. Thanks for the chat :)

    Øystein: good night

    me: good night :)
  18. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

    Feb 2, 2003
    Arizona, USA (it's a dry heat)
    Sent this note to Kaz and Cav to inform them of our research.

  19. peter grimes

    peter grimes ...

    Jul 18, 2005
    Queens, New York
    Quick note I sent to Niklas the cowboy - he's a friend of mine from the civ3 mtdg:

  20. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

    Feb 2, 2003
    Arizona, USA (it's a dry heat)
    Hmm, the note to Cav and Kaz didn't actually send, it saved as draft. :(
    I wonder if it's us they're waiting on? :crazyeye:

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