Embassy Cavaleiros
- Thread starter HUSch
- Start date
Chat with Oyzar:
Spoiler :
Should we include a peace proposal in our letter? That could speed things up. If you like it, then we can move directly to more detailed talks on tech, exploration, etc.
The rest of the chat with Oyzar:
Spoiler :
Big Triple Alliance chat w/ Methos and Oyzar:
Øystein: Did you come back?
me: I'm here. No letter from you guys yet. Chat in our forum is positive so far.
dustem: That's great news! Yeah, we're still working on our letter
me: That's cool. We're pretty much just waiting to hear from you. Can you say if there will be specific technology trading details in the letter?
dustem: wait a sec, phone
back
yes, there will, though it is more in your favor then ours
me: We'll be the judge of that LOL
dustem: though I must point out, that our tech trade offer would rely on your agreement to enter the alliance, and not just the tech deal
me: That shouldn't be a problem - but it's good to make sure everyone is on the same page. Since I told you the techs we have, can you reciprocate?
dustem: actually we did, apparently it isn't showing
let me paste it
Øystein Arneson: We have fishing, wheel, ag, myst, mining, bw, med, pottery, priesthood
Øystein Arneson has left.
me: Thanks
Do you know if the letter will come today? (i'm GMT -5)
dustem: we're doing our best to get it out as soon as possible
its getting everyone online that is difficult
me: I understand that completely. We have close to half the team in Germany, a couple Spaniards, a Portuguese, and a handful of Yanks.
Oh - a couple of Dutchmen as well
dustem: where are you located at? I'm in Missouri
Øystein: We are all over the world as well
me: I'm in NYC. Grew up in Connecticut. I wish there were some Eastern Asians on our team, but I dont' see many on the forums at all.
dustem: Let me at least explain the jist of our letter, to better prepare your team for its contents
me: ok
dustem: we current have an alliance with another team and we are looking for a third partner
we are hoping you are it
this alliance currently is based on tech research, though we have long term plans and obligations as well
we are hoping you will help us further our cooperational research
if you could research certain techs, we would be willing to trade you quite a few techs in return
me: Does the third team have contact with SANCTA?
dustem: no
me: that's good - we don't need to make any techs cheaper for SANCTA.
dustem: definitely agree
me: Will this be structured as 3 equal partners?
dustem: yes
basically we all research predefined techs and trade them amongst each other
me: Have you worked out which techs each team does, or is that still being determined?
dustem: we have already determined what techs they and us our researching and have made considerations on what techs we would hope that you would research
We were hoping you'd research IW and Sailing for us and in return, you'd be getting Alpha + Monarchy + their prereqs
me: Will we be working towards joint military cooperation against SANCTA?... I know it's really early to be jumping that far ahead, but I can say from the last game that if we don't gun for them, they will gun for us.
dustem: so far joint military discussions haven't been brought up, though that is always a possibility
first we were hoping that through cooperation we could advance our three teams, shortening the strong lead sancta has
me: Yes, we must keep it in the backs of our minds. I believe that the closer we work together in tech and trade, the more natural it will be to cooperate in military as well.
dustem: that is my own opinion as well, though it is up to the team to decide
me: Of course. One of the biggest lessons I learned from the last game is that teams that don't work together will surely fail together. Sort of like what Franklin said
dustem: hehe
I assume your team will wish a formal letter in regards to what we are discussing, so we'll definitely get that sent. but hopefully this will give your team a head start on any discussions that are required
me: Yes, email is always best to lay out the detailed stuff. I'll post this chat - it's full of things to talk about Just one thing...
I had asked if you had met anyone, and the answer was No. But now it seems you have met someone. I'm not sure what I missed?
dustem: One of our agreements in our alliance was that any discussions with another team regarding joining the alliance must first be discussed amongst our two teams
So unfortunately we had to answer in that way until we could discuss your own team
me: That sounds reasonable. I've been on teams before that had the same sort of arrangement.
So are we finished for today? Can I post this chat now?
It's been very productive
dustem: Sure. If you have any more questions feel free to ask.
I'll be online for a couple more hours before I have to leave for work
me: Great. Thanks!
Øystein: Did you come back?
me: I'm here. No letter from you guys yet. Chat in our forum is positive so far.
dustem: That's great news! Yeah, we're still working on our letter
me: That's cool. We're pretty much just waiting to hear from you. Can you say if there will be specific technology trading details in the letter?
dustem: wait a sec, phone
back
yes, there will, though it is more in your favor then ours
me: We'll be the judge of that LOL
dustem: though I must point out, that our tech trade offer would rely on your agreement to enter the alliance, and not just the tech deal
me: That shouldn't be a problem - but it's good to make sure everyone is on the same page. Since I told you the techs we have, can you reciprocate?
dustem: actually we did, apparently it isn't showing
let me paste it
Øystein Arneson: We have fishing, wheel, ag, myst, mining, bw, med, pottery, priesthood
Øystein Arneson has left.
me: Thanks
Do you know if the letter will come today? (i'm GMT -5)dustem: we're doing our best to get it out as soon as possible
its getting everyone online that is difficult
me: I understand that completely. We have close to half the team in Germany, a couple Spaniards, a Portuguese, and a handful of Yanks.
Oh - a couple of Dutchmen as well
dustem: where are you located at? I'm in Missouri
Øystein: We are all over the world as well
me: I'm in NYC. Grew up in Connecticut. I wish there were some Eastern Asians on our team, but I dont' see many on the forums at all.
dustem: Let me at least explain the jist of our letter, to better prepare your team for its contents
me: ok
dustem: we current have an alliance with another team and we are looking for a third partner
we are hoping you are it
this alliance currently is based on tech research, though we have long term plans and obligations as well
we are hoping you will help us further our cooperational research
if you could research certain techs, we would be willing to trade you quite a few techs in return
me: Does the third team have contact with SANCTA?
dustem: no
me: that's good - we don't need to make any techs cheaper for SANCTA.
dustem: definitely agree
me: Will this be structured as 3 equal partners?
dustem: yes
basically we all research predefined techs and trade them amongst each other
me: Have you worked out which techs each team does, or is that still being determined?
dustem: we have already determined what techs they and us our researching and have made considerations on what techs we would hope that you would research
We were hoping you'd research IW and Sailing for us and in return, you'd be getting Alpha + Monarchy + their prereqs
me: Will we be working towards joint military cooperation against SANCTA?... I know it's really early to be jumping that far ahead, but I can say from the last game that if we don't gun for them, they will gun for us.
dustem: so far joint military discussions haven't been brought up, though that is always a possibility
first we were hoping that through cooperation we could advance our three teams, shortening the strong lead sancta has
me: Yes, we must keep it in the backs of our minds. I believe that the closer we work together in tech and trade, the more natural it will be to cooperate in military as well.
dustem: that is my own opinion as well, though it is up to the team to decide
me: Of course. One of the biggest lessons I learned from the last game is that teams that don't work together will surely fail together. Sort of like what Franklin said
dustem: hehe
I assume your team will wish a formal letter in regards to what we are discussing, so we'll definitely get that sent. but hopefully this will give your team a head start on any discussions that are required
me: Yes, email is always best to lay out the detailed stuff. I'll post this chat - it's full of things to talk about
Just one thing...I had asked if you had met anyone, and the answer was No. But now it seems you have met someone. I'm not sure what I missed?
dustem: One of our agreements in our alliance was that any discussions with another team regarding joining the alliance must first be discussed amongst our two teams
So unfortunately we had to answer in that way until we could discuss your own team
me: That sounds reasonable. I've been on teams before that had the same sort of arrangement.
So are we finished for today? Can I post this chat now?
It's been very productive
dustem: Sure. If you have any more questions feel free to ask.
I'll be online for a couple more hours before I have to leave for work
me: Great. Thanks!
Letter from Cav - received before we have formally agreed to join the alliance:
Dear Mad Ones,
we look forward to your reply to our proposal, and are eager to start
negotiating the details of our alliance. In the mean time, we bring
you word from our other friends, who wished to send their greetings.
Please find attached a papyrus scroll straight from the proud people
of Kazakhstan.
In friendship,
Niklas dos Cavaleiros
Dear Mad Ones,
we look forward to your reply to our proposal, and are eager to start
negotiating the details of our alliance. In the mean time, we bring
you word from our other friends, who wished to send their greetings.
Please find attached a papyrus scroll straight from the proud people
of Kazakhstan.
In friendship,
Niklas dos Cavaleiros
Chat with Oyzar
Discussion here.
me: got a second?
Øystein: ye
me: I'm pretty sure we're going to formally join the Alliance. Nobody has expressed grave reservations yet, and discussion has been going on all weekend. So this is really good news.
Øystein: Did you guys start on your next tech yet?
me: I'm not sure - I'm just catching up after being gone all weekend. I know that as of Friday we had 2 turns left on Hunting.
Øystein: what are you going to research next?
me: Im' reading the thread now. There's a lot of reasons for us to do AH before IW.
Øystein: you can trade for AH... so researching it yourself is just wasted beakers
me: Actually, on the next page of discussion it turns out the arguments for IW won! That point was raised - about trading for it
We won't have it on t60, though.
Øystein: Are you doing IW before archery and sailing?
me: yes
Øystein: do you guys have copper?
me: don't need copper for our UU - the Holkan
Øystein: Sailing is a very important economic tech, if it is delayed it'll cost us a lot, any idea when you will get IW if you go for it next?
holkan doesn't beat axes though...
so do you have copper or not?
me: Are you saying that you'd prefer us to do sailing before IW?
Øystein: well depends on when you'll get it, but sailing is more important if you can get necesarry defense in time(archers or traded for AH and find horses) sailing is instant +1 commerce for each city if you've met someone per sea pretty much
and if you could disclose your position more i am sure we could figure out when that would happen
(or rivers obviously)
me: We should be able to trade along the coast. We haven't explored the entire route yet, but I'm pretty sure that's in the near-term plans. I don't recall off the top of my head how the rivers are laid out.
Do you have a coastal route w/ Kas yet?
Øystein: yep
me: That's great! That means that we'll get the route eventually as well.
Øystein: So when will you get iw if you go for it next? 65? 70?
How are you compared to where you met us? north and west or north and east? and roughly how far? certainly you'll have screenshots of everything in the forum so it is not like you need to login to check the overview of the land no?
me: IW: how many beakers is it?... land: go north to the mountains, then head west. I'll look now for river routes....
Øystein: roughly how many squares?
me: ...checking...
Øystein: iw is 200 base so 299 then
299 beakers
me: ugh.. then I think it's going to be about 12 turns or so.
no - more like 30. btw, we're about 15 north and 15 west from you, roughly. river route negative - it's got to be coastal. Have you fully explored the area around the lake to your west?
Øystein: nope
15 west eh, thats quite far
me: About how far is Kaz from you?
Øystein: at 30 bpt it'll take ~9 turns to finish IW
me: we need some cash first, that's why I said about 12.
Øystein: further away than you, don't recall exactly now
over 30 tiles i think
me: along the same coast?... our workboat will need open borders with you to reach them.
Øystein: If you could come up with an official letter that would make a lot of people in my team happy, that said we would probably prefer if you go sailing and archery before IW though...
you have a workboat sailing east?
me: The workboat completes shortly, then will head to the lake area to complete explorations. That should also open up a trade route between us. the workboat will take a minimum of 10 turns to reach you, depending on the size of the peninsula to your west.
Øystein: 10 turns to reach us? I really doubt that
certainly you would have to sail west before you could sail south? or have you explored along the coast already?
me: minimum of 10. If there is no more land at all, most direct route, etc. etc. we have explored most of the coast between us already - just need to clear up that penisula a bit. Did Kaz's explorer find you, or did you guys find them?
Øystein: We found them i guess
me: Interesting world we're in, no?
Øystein: yep
I wonder where the other teams are though
I was thinking they might be to the west of us...
me: We wonder the same thing. Another of our explorers has been out even longer, and ventured much farther, and has yet to meet anyone. I also wonder if all teams can reach eachother over land.
Øystein: in which direction did he go?
me: east. What direction is Kaz from you?
Øystein: east
me: There are barriers to north-south exploration. But you probably know that already
Øystein: Yeah loads of mountains
me: I play maps like these against a friend of mine - but only when we play accelerated start & always war
Øystein: So is your capital on coast facing north or south?
me: neither. btw - we haven't settled copper yet. Do you have it?
Øystein: you are on coast facing west?
me: Correct!
brb...
Øystein: We haven't settled copper yet no, btw are there any resources in the vincity of where your warrior near our land is(in your direction) of note?
me: I'll check....
I can't really tell... our screenshots don't have the resources turned on. When I go into the game later I'll check.
gotta go for now. I'll be back later, though
Øystein: cya
when will you guys send an official letter?
me: I'd like to do it today. It will also include a postcard that we'd like you to pass on to Kazakhstan.
Øystein: will you hold the turn until then?
me: I doubt it, but I don't know HUSch's schedule.
Øystein: Well to us sailing and archery is more important to iw(and a lot cheaper)
so it would be nice if you went for those first...
Discussion here.
me: got a second?
Øystein: ye
me: I'm pretty sure we're going to formally join the Alliance. Nobody has expressed grave reservations yet, and discussion has been going on all weekend. So this is really good news.
Øystein: Did you guys start on your next tech yet?
me: I'm not sure - I'm just catching up after being gone all weekend. I know that as of Friday we had 2 turns left on Hunting.
Øystein: what are you going to research next?
me: Im' reading the thread now. There's a lot of reasons for us to do AH before IW.
Øystein: you can trade for AH... so researching it yourself is just wasted beakers
me: Actually, on the next page of discussion it turns out the arguments for IW won! That point was raised - about trading for it
We won't have it on t60, though.
Øystein: Are you doing IW before archery and sailing?
me: yes
Øystein: do you guys have copper?
me: don't need copper for our UU - the Holkan
Øystein: Sailing is a very important economic tech, if it is delayed it'll cost us a lot, any idea when you will get IW if you go for it next?
holkan doesn't beat axes though...
so do you have copper or not?
me: Are you saying that you'd prefer us to do sailing before IW?
Øystein: well depends on when you'll get it, but sailing is more important if you can get necesarry defense in time(archers or traded for AH and find horses) sailing is instant +1 commerce for each city if you've met someone per sea pretty much
and if you could disclose your position more i am sure we could figure out when that would happen
(or rivers obviously)
me: We should be able to trade along the coast. We haven't explored the entire route yet, but I'm pretty sure that's in the near-term plans. I don't recall off the top of my head how the rivers are laid out.
Do you have a coastal route w/ Kas yet?
Øystein: yep
me: That's great! That means that we'll get the route eventually as well.
Øystein: So when will you get iw if you go for it next? 65? 70?
How are you compared to where you met us? north and west or north and east? and roughly how far? certainly you'll have screenshots of everything in the forum so it is not like you need to login to check the overview of the land no?
me: IW: how many beakers is it?... land: go north to the mountains, then head west. I'll look now for river routes....
Øystein: roughly how many squares?
me: ...checking...
Øystein: iw is 200 base so 299 then
299 beakers
me: ugh.. then I think it's going to be about 12 turns or so.
no - more like 30. btw, we're about 15 north and 15 west from you, roughly. river route negative - it's got to be coastal. Have you fully explored the area around the lake to your west?
Øystein: nope
15 west eh, thats quite far
me: About how far is Kaz from you?
Øystein: at 30 bpt it'll take ~9 turns to finish IW
me: we need some cash first, that's why I said about 12.
Øystein: further away than you, don't recall exactly now
over 30 tiles i think
me: along the same coast?... our workboat will need open borders with you to reach them.
Øystein: If you could come up with an official letter that would make a lot of people in my team happy, that said we would probably prefer if you go sailing and archery before IW though...
you have a workboat sailing east?
me: The workboat completes shortly, then will head to the lake area to complete explorations. That should also open up a trade route between us. the workboat will take a minimum of 10 turns to reach you, depending on the size of the peninsula to your west.
Øystein: 10 turns to reach us? I really doubt that
certainly you would have to sail west before you could sail south? or have you explored along the coast already?
me: minimum of 10. If there is no more land at all, most direct route, etc. etc. we have explored most of the coast between us already - just need to clear up that penisula a bit. Did Kaz's explorer find you, or did you guys find them?
Øystein: We found them i guess
me: Interesting world we're in, no?
Øystein: yep
I wonder where the other teams are though
I was thinking they might be to the west of us...
me: We wonder the same thing. Another of our explorers has been out even longer, and ventured much farther, and has yet to meet anyone. I also wonder if all teams can reach eachother over land.
Øystein: in which direction did he go?
me: east. What direction is Kaz from you?
Øystein: east
me: There are barriers to north-south exploration. But you probably know that already
Øystein: Yeah loads of mountains
me: I play maps like these against a friend of mine - but only when we play accelerated start & always war
Øystein: So is your capital on coast facing north or south?
me: neither. btw - we haven't settled copper yet. Do you have it?
Øystein: you are on coast facing west?
me: Correct!
brb...
Øystein: We haven't settled copper yet no, btw are there any resources in the vincity of where your warrior near our land is(in your direction) of note?
me: I'll check....
I can't really tell... our screenshots don't have the resources turned on. When I go into the game later I'll check.
gotta go for now. I'll be back later, though
Øystein: cya
when will you guys send an official letter?
me: I'd like to do it today. It will also include a postcard that we'd like you to pass on to Kazakhstan.
Øystein: will you hold the turn until then?
me: I doubt it, but I don't know HUSch's schedule.
Øystein: Well to us sailing and archery is more important to iw(and a lot cheaper)
so it would be nice if you went for those first...
Principe Perfeito, we share your vision for the Future!
We Mad Scientists are ready to join The Cause, enriching the Three Noble Nations: Mad Scientists, Kazakhstan, and Os Cavaleiros. We will do our part to bring a much-needed boost to our combined status in the world. Is there a formal document we should affix our seal to?... if so, please send it on over
We are still discussing the utility of IW compared to Sailing - but we will certainly choose one or the other to research next. We'll let you know as soon as we've made a decision.
One last thing: In order to speed exploration and contact, please describe best route for us to meet Kazakhstan - by sea or by land?
Glad to be aboard!
Peter Grimes, Diplomat
The Mad Scientists
p.s. - please forward this postcard to Kazakhstan. Thanks!
SENT: 2/10/09
Chat with Niklas
- Info on Kaz location
- rumors of geography
- their tech plans
- history of Oracle
Niklas: hello there
me: Hi!... you caught me
Niklas: caught? trying to hide?
me: If I were, I wasn't doing a very good job, right?
Niklas: hehe, indeed not
great news that you decided to join the alliance
I have a draft version for the formal treaty up now, should send it off in not too long
me: Yes, we're pretty excited. It's the sort of arrangement we were hoping to find before we had met anyone.
Niklas: aye, it's pretty much perfect
did you come to a decision regarding tech order?
me: We're doing IW next. It's the most useful tech, short term. Lots of jungle out there.
Niklas: ok, we understand
neither we nor Kaz have any jungle, so we're less in need of it
hence why we preferred sailing
but it's good news that you have jungle, it means our resources are bound to be different
good for trading
me: Yes. Also, we'll be able to trade more beakers immediately.
Niklas: any ETA on IW?
me: Hmmm... gimme a moment to check the forums.
Niklas: no rush, just curious
me: should be about 12 turns, as I mentioned to Oyzar. I guess we've only done 1 turn since then??
Niklas: ok
that's good
me: What are you researching next?
Niklas: we will complete Monarchy on turn 68 I believe, after that it will most likely be Mathematics
while Kaz goes for CoL
to set us up for an early Civil Service
me: That makes sense. Will Kaz be able to get a religion from CoL, or did SANCTA already preclude that?
Niklas: no, SANCTA took either Alphabet or Metal Casting from the oracle
me: Oh, that's right... I keep forgetting that the CS slingshot doesn't work in BtS.
Niklas: well, it does work, it's just a bit longer since you have to get maths too
but in a MP game there's no way really
me: Yeah - it's no longer as simple as getting CoL first. But Memphus pulled it off in the last one, the jerk!
Niklas: lol
me: I can say that, because I was on the same team
Niklas: haha, great achievement
me: It was indeed - 1800 bc, if I recall.
Niklas: not sure if you knew, but we were trying to pull off a feudalism slingshot
in this game that is
me: I didn't know about Feudalism, but we figured you were shooting for the Oracle.
Niklas: we were getting Writing from Kaz to be able to take it on turn 68
but SANCTA preferred to do a lightning strike denial
I mean, MC or Alpha is not really worth the hammers at this stage, so they presumably did it more to avoid that we got something good from it
which is of course clever too
me: Gold is always useful for research. Denial is almost as good a reason as any, right?
Niklas: definitely
me: Which civ is the non-financial one, do you know?
Niklas: ours
me: LOL... no wonder you wanted us and Kaz!!
Niklas: well, we're not too worried, we're good in other respects
fast expansion will allow us to catch up to you in the mid game, when financial becomes weaker
but right now we're definitely one notch below in teching capacity
me: Indeed... We are still arguing over the dot-map.
Niklas: yeah, we have some heated discussions over that too
me: Of course, my biggest worry is the number of barbarians. They're everywhere!
Niklas: well, you have holkans, you don't really need to worry much
until axemen come along that is
me: That's true, but Holkans don't last super long. Besides - they still cost hammers that we'd rather put into settlers.
Niklas: yeah
same here (well, not the holkans, but...)
me: That's why I was against barbs. But it's OK.
Niklas: our team was pretty unanimously against them too
but we'll cope with it
me: Do you know if the postcard was forwarded to Kaz?
Niklas: yep
me: Excellent. I think it's going to be a while before we meet them in-game.
Niklas: they are situated pretty much due east of us
me: But we don't have anyone near there... and there are barriers to travel everywhere we look
Niklas: yeah
Kaz tells us that there seems to be some sort of passage in the middle of the continent, a hub where all the mountain ranges open up
me: That would be interesting - sort of the opposite of the last cIV mtdg... where there was a central ocean instead of a central plain.
Niklas: we have yet to see it with our own eyes though
you have a workboat sailing along the coast towards us right?
me: Did the Kaz explorer make it all the way to your lands?
Niklas: no
not yet at any rate
me: So there's no chance of our Warrior encountering them near where he is (in the valley to the north of you)?
Niklas: most likely not no
he would have to travel eastwards, probably north east to reach this "hub" where their warrior was last
me: I know we still have to heal a bit - but I don't remember if there's still a barbarian animal around.
Niklas: not that we can see, there was another lion but he was deleted
me: Just looked - Anaxagoras is the name. Yes, he killed the lion in 1720. (last turn). HUSch is playing now.
OKay, I've got to go now. Nice chatting!
Niklas: alright, we'll pass the formal treaty proposal along shortly
talk to you later!
- Info on Kaz location
- rumors of geography
- their tech plans
- history of Oracle
Niklas: hello there
me: Hi!... you caught me
Niklas: caught? trying to hide?
me: If I were, I wasn't doing a very good job, right?
Niklas: hehe, indeed not
great news that you decided to join the alliance
I have a draft version for the formal treaty up now, should send it off in not too long
me: Yes, we're pretty excited. It's the sort of arrangement we were hoping to find before we had met anyone.
Niklas: aye, it's pretty much perfect
did you come to a decision regarding tech order?
me: We're doing IW next. It's the most useful tech, short term. Lots of jungle out there.
Niklas: ok, we understand
neither we nor Kaz have any jungle, so we're less in need of it
hence why we preferred sailing
but it's good news that you have jungle, it means our resources are bound to be different
good for trading
me: Yes. Also, we'll be able to trade more beakers immediately.
Niklas: any ETA on IW?
me: Hmmm... gimme a moment to check the forums.
Niklas: no rush, just curious
me: should be about 12 turns, as I mentioned to Oyzar. I guess we've only done 1 turn since then??
Niklas: ok
that's good
me: What are you researching next?
Niklas: we will complete Monarchy on turn 68 I believe, after that it will most likely be Mathematics
while Kaz goes for CoL
to set us up for an early Civil Service
me: That makes sense. Will Kaz be able to get a religion from CoL, or did SANCTA already preclude that?
Niklas: no, SANCTA took either Alphabet or Metal Casting from the oracle
me: Oh, that's right... I keep forgetting that the CS slingshot doesn't work in BtS.
Niklas: well, it does work, it's just a bit longer since you have to get maths too
but in a MP game there's no way really
me: Yeah - it's no longer as simple as getting CoL first. But Memphus pulled it off in the last one, the jerk!
Niklas: lol
me: I can say that, because I was on the same team
Niklas: haha, great achievement
me: It was indeed - 1800 bc, if I recall.
Niklas: not sure if you knew, but we were trying to pull off a feudalism slingshot
in this game that is
me: I didn't know about Feudalism, but we figured you were shooting for the Oracle.
Niklas: we were getting Writing from Kaz to be able to take it on turn 68
but SANCTA preferred to do a lightning strike denial
I mean, MC or Alpha is not really worth the hammers at this stage, so they presumably did it more to avoid that we got something good from it
which is of course clever too
me: Gold is always useful for research. Denial is almost as good a reason as any, right?
Niklas: definitely
me: Which civ is the non-financial one, do you know?
Niklas: ours
me: LOL... no wonder you wanted us and Kaz!!
Niklas: well, we're not too worried, we're good in other respects
fast expansion will allow us to catch up to you in the mid game, when financial becomes weaker
but right now we're definitely one notch below in teching capacity
me: Indeed... We are still arguing over the dot-map.
Niklas: yeah, we have some heated discussions over that too
me: Of course, my biggest worry is the number of barbarians. They're everywhere!
Niklas: well, you have holkans, you don't really need to worry much
until axemen come along that is
me: That's true, but Holkans don't last super long. Besides - they still cost hammers that we'd rather put into settlers.
Niklas: yeah
same here (well, not the holkans, but...
)me: That's why I was against barbs. But it's OK.
Niklas: our team was pretty unanimously against them too
but we'll cope with it
me: Do you know if the postcard was forwarded to Kaz?
Niklas: yep
me: Excellent. I think it's going to be a while before we meet them in-game.
Niklas: they are situated pretty much due east of us
me: But we don't have anyone near there... and there are barriers to travel everywhere we look
Niklas: yeah
Kaz tells us that there seems to be some sort of passage in the middle of the continent, a hub where all the mountain ranges open up
me: That would be interesting - sort of the opposite of the last cIV mtdg... where there was a central ocean instead of a central plain.
Niklas: we have yet to see it with our own eyes though
you have a workboat sailing along the coast towards us right?
me: Did the Kaz explorer make it all the way to your lands?
Niklas: no
not yet at any rate
me: So there's no chance of our Warrior encountering them near where he is (in the valley to the north of you)?
Niklas: most likely not no
he would have to travel eastwards, probably north east to reach this "hub" where their warrior was last
me: I know we still have to heal a bit - but I don't remember if there's still a barbarian animal around.
Niklas: not that we can see, there was another lion but he was deleted
me: Just looked - Anaxagoras is the name. Yes, he killed the lion in 1720. (last turn). HUSch is playing now.
OKay, I've got to go now. Nice chatting!
Niklas: alright, we'll pass the formal treaty proposal along shortly
talk to you later!
Letter from Os Cavaleiros, including The Treaty:
Letter sent to Os Cavaleiros, accepting the treaty:
Letter sent to Os Cavaleiros, accepting the treaty:
Greetings!
The Mad Scientists have analyzed the possibilities this treaty enables, and we are very happy to announce that we agree to all points, as written. We are [7] turns from Iron Working, which we will send on as soon as possible.
To The Future!
Peter Grimes of The Mad Scientists
Chat with Niklas
- more intel on geography
- KAZ has met SANCTA
- layout of The Globe
- trade route discussion
- settlement boundaries
- future techs beyond IW, Sailing, etc.
- Alphabet is in, CAV is ready to trade
me: I'm ready whenever you are
Niklas: same here
I'm correcting lab assignments, can't think of more boring work, so I'm glad for some relief
so...
what I wanted to talk to you about is the future in general
lemme grab some notes...
ok, first of all, Kaz got alphabet this turn and the first trade has gone through
me: That's great! I'm checking now to see how far we are from IW- it was 7 turns when I drafted the note...
Niklas: next turn we should receive alphabet (I think), and could start trading things to you in turn
another thing of note is that Kaz has met SANCTA
me: I understand that KAZ is mostly due east of you... any idea where SANCTA is? Do you know how they met?
Niklas: yes
Kaz met them via workboat, sailing pretty much straight north from them
so they should be quite some ways east of you
we're guesstimating that saturn is between you and sancta
me: We have a warrior that is far to the east (and north) of you. It's possible we'll encounter SAN before SAT.
Niklas: maybe so
do you have any workboats out?
me: Yes, but heading north, not south.
Niklas: towards where we expect saturn to be then?
me: Possibly - if they have a coastal start, of course. It seems that everyone does. The wb left just a couple of turns ago, so it will be a long journey!
Niklas: they definitely have a coastal start
no team had 9 land area on the first turn ;-)
me: Good catch ;-) Our warrior is east of the 'hub', we believe. But we didn't map anything that seemed to be a hub - the avenues may have been in the fog.
Niklas: ok, well, we only have Kaz' word on it and they may have made a guess only
our own warrior scouts have been less than lucky
we've had three eaten by animals :-(
me: Our warrior has mapped a Grand Valley, extending from us to the far east. OMG - that's terrible luck! Especially with all the forested hills!
Niklas: yeah, two of them had great odds to win and yet didn't
me: We are having to be very careful with our escorts - that's for certain.
Niklas: one of them was in a forest, across a river, facing a lion
2 vs 2 strength, and +95% bonus
sigh
me: That's just gratuitious!
Niklas: good thing we had our workboat to make contact
brb
me: ok
Niklas: back
me: One thing we'd like to talk about is settlement boundaries. Can you talk about that?
Niklas: and yeah, gratuitious indeed, that's why we voted no barbs
me: lol
Niklas: hmm, I'm not sure we have enough scouting knowledge to know what relevants boundaries would be
do you feel that you risk settling "too close" to us in the near future?
me: There are a couple of areas where either of us could wind up putting a city, that, without a formal agreement, could lead to tensions. We thought it would be smart to set up an agreement just in case.
Niklas: we should definitely have such an agreement, what I wonder is if there is a rush, or if you could let us scout out our surroundings a bit more before it becomes relevant
for the record we just got AH from sancta and have horses, so scouting should be a bit faster in a short while
me: Yes, definitely scout first. We are not about to settle a city close to you, but, we also were taken by surprise when you settled near our warrior. We see the Mountain Ridges on either side of your new city as being a natural boundary.
AH from SANCTA?...
Niklas: eh, Kaz of course
me: Good cover - your freudian slip is safe with me
Niklas: Cimeira Loucos, named in your honor, is not very far from our capitol
are you saying you feel that it is in what might be contested lands?
and lol, no deals with sancta, never! :-D
me: brb
Niklas: sure
me: back. No, that city is not in contested lands. but on the other side of the mountains becomes tricky. That's why we see the mountains running north / south as a natural boundary.
Niklas: you mean the mountains west of Cimeira?
me: Yes, those west of Cimeira.
Niklas: ok, then I agree, we too see those mountains as a boundary and have no plans to settle past them anytime soon (and definitely not without your consent)
but without further knowledge, it's hard to say anything for sure of course
me: Then I think we are in perfect agreement - we also will not settle on 'your' side of the mountains. Of course you need to scout before you can swear to this sort of thing. But we're just talking about the principle. This was the sort of thing we were considering trying to write into The Treaty - but decided it was best handled between us, as it doesn't concern KAZ.
Niklas: indeed, good call
and I'm sure it won't lead to any disputes
me: Do you know if you'll have any surplus resources soon?
Niklas: I'm not sure actually
I should check the map more often
I think we have a surplus source of wheats
but of course we need a trade route first
me: I'm pretty sure we'll have bananas (after calendar)to trade... We'll also have extra dyes at that point. Calendar is going to open up a lot of things for us. It's one of our priorities.
Niklas: understood
after calendar we will have incence, and we should have wines some time after monarchy once we get around to settling them
me: Speaking of Trade Routes... We can get one set up, but it won't be with the next settler. I'm not sure of the details, but it could be the second settler. But don't quote me! ;-)
Niklas: oh - set up how?
is there a natural connection somehow?
me: See?... it all comes back to your need to scout If I tell you the details, can you tell me some juicy geographic tidbit we don't know?
Niklas: hehe, I'd need to go look at our maps then
me: I can wait... if you think it's worth it LOL
Niklas: well, I definitely want to know how and when trade can be possible between us
me: Trade routes are possible. I can tell you exactly how, but I'll get yelled at if I don't get anything in return
(i'm not joking - it's happened!)
Niklas: I'm looking at the maps now
not sure what I could tell you that you would find interesting
we have a workboat sailing up the coast to our west
right now it is located pretty much due west of Cimeira
probably 10 tiles or so west of Cimeira, I have no good overview map that shows both
me: That's good news - your workboat may map the Lake Peninsula before we do. We'd like to know more about how to locate KAZ, actually. Did you follow a mountian valley?
Niklas: we found them via workboat
they are located some 30 tiles, and a handful south, of our capitol, along a fairly straight coastline
me: I thought Oystein mentioned walking due east. I'm probably mistaken... Where is that wb now?
Niklas: eh, 30 tiles east
that workboat has since continued sailing north from them, they are located in the southeastern "corner" of the continent
we've sailed northeast and are just about to round a cape pretty far north of them
we passed their capitol on turn 48, so we've gone some way since
we should be closing in on sancta soonish actually
me: Now I understand why you presume SATURN to be north of us.
Niklas: indeed
sancta is pretty much straight north of kaz
and I believe you are somewhere northwest of us?
so that would put the distance between you and sancta at the longest between any of us four, and thus the logical place for the fifth team to be
me: OK - I'll talk now But one thing I need to mention here: The Triple Alliance needs to have a plan in place for dealing with SANCTA. but first....
we can set up a trade route using the river that flows from CL. It passes between the mountains, and empties into the Lake that's on the peninsula your newer wb is about to explore.
Niklas: hmm, I can see your warrior standing on a forested hill right next to what appears to be the end of said river
3W of CL
me: We have a plan to get a city onto that peninsula (again, I'm not sure which settler is going there), and with a few well-placed roads, we'll have a TR
Niklas: is that the lake you are talking about?
me: ..checking...
Ah,,, I'm mistaken... you're right. The tile Anaxagoras is on will require a road. That road will connect to the hill on the other side of the pass (yes - it's a pass!) and this will complete the trade route to us.
Niklas: ok, that's good, and we can easily supply that road
oh, wait
me: But as I said - it's going to be some turns still.
Niklas: which tile is Anaxagoras on?
you've moved since this shot was taken
is he still 3W of CL?
or 4W?
me: In the turn 1480 screenshots, he's on the tile 4w - on a plains hill just west of the river (which I mistakenly thought passed through the mountains)
Niklas: right, then I'm with you, that makes sense
on my shot he is on the forest 3W of CL, and I couldn't get it into my head how a road there would help
me: Have you explored west through the pass at all?
Niklas: no, nothing
the tile you say Anaxagoras is on now is the farthest of our knowledge in that direction
this is where we lost that warrior to a lion
and our recent warrior, a bit north of Anaxagoras now, was sent northwards since we didn't move close enough to the range to see the pass
so your information is highly valuable!
me: So sad... you really had terrible luck. So do you want your warrior to find us, or to find Saturn?... or maybe find The Hub?
valuable - that's why i needed to get something in return ;-)
Niklas: I think our warrior is better of going north now, our workboat should find your lands
haha, indeed, and I'm sorry if I don't have enough to give, but I will freely share all we know
it's not for lack of will, but for lack of data, that we have little to share
me: When your warrior exits the valley, and the north/south mountain ranges end, he will be in the Grand Valley that our boldest warrior has mapped. Head East, and you should find the hub.
Niklas: ok, thank you
me: btw - you're going to have a dynamite city north or CL. 2 gem tiles!
*north OF cl
Niklas: we have mapped out the land east of us a bit more, there is a larger flat area there where have the wines and wheats
oh - that's great!
how far north?
me: I'm looking now...
Niklas: we have visibility 4N of CL, our warrior will soon extend that though
me: ok - is there a plains hill 2N of CL?
Niklas: yes
just outside its current borders
me: ..with river grass on its west, and plais forest on its east?
Niklas: indeed
and three plains NNN, NNNW and NNNE
me: Hmmm - That's not what I'm looking at. Most of our screenshots are highly zoomed, and spread among many threads. I'm having trouble locating enough shots to piece together where the gems are in relation. But your warrior will certainly find them. The only bad thing is they are jungle hill gems. And I don't remember a river, but I could be wrong.
Niklas: heh, oh well, we'll find them, thanks a lot for that info
we have a Played Turns thread with all the screenshots in it
me: I prefer the setup we have on The Council... but it's fine. We're still finding our system.
Niklas: understood
me: Do you know where KAZ's explorer is - the one who discovered The Hub?
Niklas: no idea I'm afraid
I could ask them for that information, but it hasn't been relevant to us yet
me: We'd like to know where The Hub is - and you will want to know for your warrior. A verbal description will be time consuming, though. I'll try to spend some time looking at the map tomorrow at work.
Niklas: ok, sounds good
I will probably have to leave very shortly
me: That's cool - I'm glad we had a chance to do this.
Niklas: one thing I wanted to discuss though, which has been lost in the interesting information so far, is your thoughts on tech progression past the near goals
what techs do you see as important, and what goals do you have for your own development?
me: I was hoping you wouldn't ask that... this conversation is spread around in a few different threads, and I've had a hard time keeping track of it. The best I can say right now is that I'll have to set up a thread in our forum to solidify our thoughts. We'll have something concrete to offer by the middle of next week, realistically.
Niklas: hmm, well, I really think that this is something that would be best discussed *together*, through all three teams, since it will take a long time for each team to come to a decision on its own, only to find that the other teams have other ideas
of course there needs to be a discussion in the teams, but it would be good if we could talk continuously, to feel the temperature and give input to our teams from each other
me: Very good point. We will also have different goals depending on the alliance's goals as a unit - how do we handle SANTCA, who will build which wonders, etc. Have you had chats with KAZ on this yet?
Oh yeah - which wonders must we DENY to Sancta, as well.
Niklas: yes, we have, and we are keen to include you in them, since it's hard to decide on anything without knowing your thoughts
Kaz are very keen on building the Great Library for instance, both because they themselves are philosophical, and to deny it from S/S
me: Do we know if Saturn and Sancta have met??
Niklas: no, we have no indication of that
SANCTA are putting full EP towards Kaz, but that could be by choice of course, we did the same towards you when we first met you
me: Yes, we noticed I have to go soon.
Niklas: aye, me too
I'll just give you the state of the discussion on our side now, and you can try to start a discussion in your team
Kaz want to go for CoL next, since they want a religion
we will probably go for Maths, in order to set us up for Civil Service after
which requires CoL and Maths
but Kaz are worried that Sancta will go for Literature, and will probably try to propose that you go down that route soonish, though they have yet to say so out loud
there is of course also the inevitable question of "what's in it for us" if Kaz build GLib, but that's something we'll have to discuss further
me: OK - I'll try to get something concrete to you about the next tech path... perhaps by the end of the weekend? Stacey and I are going skiing this weekend, but I should still have a little time. I can tell you that we have discussed Hanging Gardens (we've a pretty poor start!); but more importantly for The Alliance - The Apostolic Palace. This could open up a pretty interesting avenue for the three of us...
OK, I have to meet Stacey now. Thanks again, and have fun grading labs!!
bye
Niklas: cya
and I can tell you we've discussed Hanging Gardens too
but we'll talk more later, have fun skiing!
- more intel on geography
- KAZ has met SANCTA
- layout of The Globe
- trade route discussion
- settlement boundaries
- future techs beyond IW, Sailing, etc.
- Alphabet is in, CAV is ready to trade
me: I'm ready whenever you are
Niklas: same here
I'm correcting lab assignments, can't think of more boring work, so I'm glad for some relief
so...
what I wanted to talk to you about is the future in general
lemme grab some notes...
ok, first of all, Kaz got alphabet this turn and the first trade has gone through
me: That's great! I'm checking now to see how far we are from IW- it was 7 turns when I drafted the note...
Niklas: next turn we should receive alphabet (I think), and could start trading things to you in turn
another thing of note is that Kaz has met SANCTA
me: I understand that KAZ is mostly due east of you... any idea where SANCTA is? Do you know how they met?
Niklas: yes
Kaz met them via workboat, sailing pretty much straight north from them
so they should be quite some ways east of you
we're guesstimating that saturn is between you and sancta
me: We have a warrior that is far to the east (and north) of you. It's possible we'll encounter SAN before SAT.
Niklas: maybe so
do you have any workboats out?
me: Yes, but heading north, not south.
Niklas: towards where we expect saturn to be then?
me: Possibly - if they have a coastal start, of course. It seems that everyone does. The wb left just a couple of turns ago, so it will be a long journey!
Niklas: they definitely have a coastal start
no team had 9 land area on the first turn ;-)
me: Good catch ;-) Our warrior is east of the 'hub', we believe. But we didn't map anything that seemed to be a hub - the avenues may have been in the fog.
Niklas: ok, well, we only have Kaz' word on it and they may have made a guess only
our own warrior scouts have been less than lucky
we've had three eaten by animals :-(
me: Our warrior has mapped a Grand Valley, extending from us to the far east. OMG - that's terrible luck! Especially with all the forested hills!
Niklas: yeah, two of them had great odds to win and yet didn't
me: We are having to be very careful with our escorts - that's for certain.
Niklas: one of them was in a forest, across a river, facing a lion
2 vs 2 strength, and +95% bonus
sigh
me: That's just gratuitious!
Niklas: good thing we had our workboat to make contact
brb
me: ok
Niklas: back
me: One thing we'd like to talk about is settlement boundaries. Can you talk about that?
Niklas: and yeah, gratuitious indeed, that's why we voted no barbs
me: lol
Niklas: hmm, I'm not sure we have enough scouting knowledge to know what relevants boundaries would be
do you feel that you risk settling "too close" to us in the near future?
me: There are a couple of areas where either of us could wind up putting a city, that, without a formal agreement, could lead to tensions. We thought it would be smart to set up an agreement just in case.
Niklas: we should definitely have such an agreement, what I wonder is if there is a rush, or if you could let us scout out our surroundings a bit more before it becomes relevant
for the record we just got AH from sancta and have horses, so scouting should be a bit faster in a short while
me: Yes, definitely scout first. We are not about to settle a city close to you, but, we also were taken by surprise when you settled near our warrior. We see the Mountain Ridges on either side of your new city as being a natural boundary.
AH from SANCTA?...
Niklas: eh, Kaz of course
me: Good cover - your freudian slip is safe with me
Niklas: Cimeira Loucos, named in your honor, is not very far from our capitol
are you saying you feel that it is in what might be contested lands?
and lol, no deals with sancta, never! :-D
me: brb
Niklas: sure
me: back. No, that city is not in contested lands. but on the other side of the mountains becomes tricky. That's why we see the mountains running north / south as a natural boundary.
Niklas: you mean the mountains west of Cimeira?
me: Yes, those west of Cimeira.
Niklas: ok, then I agree, we too see those mountains as a boundary and have no plans to settle past them anytime soon (and definitely not without your consent)
but without further knowledge, it's hard to say anything for sure of course
me: Then I think we are in perfect agreement - we also will not settle on 'your' side of the mountains. Of course you need to scout before you can swear to this sort of thing. But we're just talking about the principle. This was the sort of thing we were considering trying to write into The Treaty - but decided it was best handled between us, as it doesn't concern KAZ.
Niklas: indeed, good call
and I'm sure it won't lead to any disputes
me: Do you know if you'll have any surplus resources soon?
Niklas: I'm not sure actually
I should check the map more often
I think we have a surplus source of wheats
but of course we need a trade route first
me: I'm pretty sure we'll have bananas (after calendar)to trade... We'll also have extra dyes at that point. Calendar is going to open up a lot of things for us. It's one of our priorities.
Niklas: understood
after calendar we will have incence, and we should have wines some time after monarchy once we get around to settling them
me: Speaking of Trade Routes... We can get one set up, but it won't be with the next settler. I'm not sure of the details, but it could be the second settler. But don't quote me! ;-)
Niklas: oh - set up how?
is there a natural connection somehow?
me: See?... it all comes back to your need to scout
If I tell you the details, can you tell me some juicy geographic tidbit we don't know?Niklas: hehe, I'd need to go look at our maps then
me: I can wait... if you think it's worth it LOL
Niklas: well, I definitely want to know how and when trade can be possible between us
me: Trade routes are possible. I can tell you exactly how, but I'll get yelled at if I don't get anything in return
(i'm not joking - it's happened!)Niklas: I'm looking at the maps now
not sure what I could tell you that you would find interesting
we have a workboat sailing up the coast to our west
right now it is located pretty much due west of Cimeira
probably 10 tiles or so west of Cimeira, I have no good overview map that shows both
me: That's good news - your workboat may map the Lake Peninsula before we do. We'd like to know more about how to locate KAZ, actually. Did you follow a mountian valley?
Niklas: we found them via workboat
they are located some 30 tiles, and a handful south, of our capitol, along a fairly straight coastline
me: I thought Oystein mentioned walking due east. I'm probably mistaken... Where is that wb now?
Niklas: eh, 30 tiles east
that workboat has since continued sailing north from them, they are located in the southeastern "corner" of the continent
we've sailed northeast and are just about to round a cape pretty far north of them
we passed their capitol on turn 48, so we've gone some way since
we should be closing in on sancta soonish actually
me: Now I understand why you presume SATURN to be north of us.
Niklas: indeed
sancta is pretty much straight north of kaz
and I believe you are somewhere northwest of us?
so that would put the distance between you and sancta at the longest between any of us four, and thus the logical place for the fifth team to be
me: OK - I'll talk now
But one thing I need to mention here: The Triple Alliance needs to have a plan in place for dealing with SANCTA. but first....we can set up a trade route using the river that flows from CL. It passes between the mountains, and empties into the Lake that's on the peninsula your newer wb is about to explore.
Niklas: hmm, I can see your warrior standing on a forested hill right next to what appears to be the end of said river
3W of CL
me: We have a plan to get a city onto that peninsula (again, I'm not sure which settler is going there), and with a few well-placed roads, we'll have a TR
Niklas: is that the lake you are talking about?
me: ..checking...
Ah,,, I'm mistaken... you're right. The tile Anaxagoras is on will require a road. That road will connect to the hill on the other side of the pass (yes - it's a pass!) and this will complete the trade route to us.
Niklas: ok, that's good, and we can easily supply that road
oh, wait
me: But as I said - it's going to be some turns still.
Niklas: which tile is Anaxagoras on?
you've moved since this shot was taken
is he still 3W of CL?
or 4W?
me: In the turn 1480 screenshots, he's on the tile 4w - on a plains hill just west of the river (which I mistakenly thought passed through the mountains)
Niklas: right, then I'm with you, that makes sense
on my shot he is on the forest 3W of CL, and I couldn't get it into my head how a road there would help
me: Have you explored west through the pass at all?
Niklas: no, nothing
the tile you say Anaxagoras is on now is the farthest of our knowledge in that direction
this is where we lost that warrior to a lion
and our recent warrior, a bit north of Anaxagoras now, was sent northwards since we didn't move close enough to the range to see the pass
so your information is highly valuable!
me: So sad... you really had terrible luck. So do you want your warrior to find us, or to find Saturn?... or maybe find The Hub?
valuable - that's why i needed to get something in return ;-)
Niklas: I think our warrior is better of going north now, our workboat should find your lands
haha, indeed, and I'm sorry if I don't have enough to give, but I will freely share all we know
it's not for lack of will, but for lack of data, that we have little to share
me: When your warrior exits the valley, and the north/south mountain ranges end, he will be in the Grand Valley that our boldest warrior has mapped. Head East, and you should find the hub.
Niklas: ok, thank you
me: btw - you're going to have a dynamite city north or CL. 2 gem tiles!
*north OF cl
Niklas: we have mapped out the land east of us a bit more, there is a larger flat area there where have the wines and wheats
oh - that's great!
how far north?
me: I'm looking now...
Niklas: we have visibility 4N of CL, our warrior will soon extend that though
me: ok - is there a plains hill 2N of CL?
Niklas: yes
just outside its current borders
me: ..with river grass on its west, and plais forest on its east?
Niklas: indeed
and three plains NNN, NNNW and NNNE
me: Hmmm - That's not what I'm looking at. Most of our screenshots are highly zoomed, and spread among many threads. I'm having trouble locating enough shots to piece together where the gems are in relation. But your warrior will certainly find them. The only bad thing is they are jungle hill gems. And I don't remember a river, but I could be wrong.
Niklas: heh, oh well, we'll find them, thanks a lot for that info
we have a Played Turns thread with all the screenshots in it
me: I prefer the setup we have on The Council... but it's fine. We're still finding our system.
Niklas: understood
me: Do you know where KAZ's explorer is - the one who discovered The Hub?
Niklas: no idea I'm afraid
I could ask them for that information, but it hasn't been relevant to us yet
me: We'd like to know where The Hub is - and you will want to know for your warrior. A verbal description will be time consuming, though. I'll try to spend some time looking at the map tomorrow at work.
Niklas: ok, sounds good
I will probably have to leave very shortly
me: That's cool - I'm glad we had a chance to do this.
Niklas: one thing I wanted to discuss though, which has been lost in the interesting information so far, is your thoughts on tech progression past the near goals
what techs do you see as important, and what goals do you have for your own development?
me: I was hoping you wouldn't ask that... this conversation is spread around in a few different threads, and I've had a hard time keeping track of it. The best I can say right now is that I'll have to set up a thread in our forum to solidify our thoughts. We'll have something concrete to offer by the middle of next week, realistically.
Niklas: hmm, well, I really think that this is something that would be best discussed *together*, through all three teams, since it will take a long time for each team to come to a decision on its own, only to find that the other teams have other ideas
of course there needs to be a discussion in the teams, but it would be good if we could talk continuously, to feel the temperature and give input to our teams from each other
me: Very good point. We will also have different goals depending on the alliance's goals as a unit - how do we handle SANTCA, who will build which wonders, etc. Have you had chats with KAZ on this yet?
Oh yeah - which wonders must we DENY to Sancta, as well.
Niklas: yes, we have, and we are keen to include you in them, since it's hard to decide on anything without knowing your thoughts
Kaz are very keen on building the Great Library for instance, both because they themselves are philosophical, and to deny it from S/S
me: Do we know if Saturn and Sancta have met??
Niklas: no, we have no indication of that
SANCTA are putting full EP towards Kaz, but that could be by choice of course, we did the same towards you when we first met you
me: Yes, we noticed
I have to go soon.Niklas: aye, me too
I'll just give you the state of the discussion on our side now, and you can try to start a discussion in your team
Kaz want to go for CoL next, since they want a religion
we will probably go for Maths, in order to set us up for Civil Service after
which requires CoL and Maths
but Kaz are worried that Sancta will go for Literature, and will probably try to propose that you go down that route soonish, though they have yet to say so out loud
there is of course also the inevitable question of "what's in it for us" if Kaz build GLib, but that's something we'll have to discuss further
me: OK - I'll try to get something concrete to you about the next tech path... perhaps by the end of the weekend? Stacey and I are going skiing this weekend, but I should still have a little time. I can tell you that we have discussed Hanging Gardens (we've a pretty poor start!); but more importantly for The Alliance - The Apostolic Palace. This could open up a pretty interesting avenue for the three of us...
OK, I have to meet Stacey now. Thanks again, and have fun grading labs!!
bye
Niklas: cya
and I can tell you we've discussed Hanging Gardens too
but we'll talk more later, have fun skiing!
Received in the team email:
Dear Mad Scientists,
We are delighted to learn that you have accepted the treaty! Let us
raise a non-alcoholic toast (who's the crazy person who mandated you
need monarchy to build vineyards, anyway?) to our glorious future. As
our friends in Kazakhstan have already stated their approval of the
treaty in its current form, you may consider it to be in effect
immediately. As such, we have extended an open borders offer to you,
and your warriors may enjoy our hospitality if they so desire.
We welcome our recent trades of knowledge, and anticipate more such
trades in the future! We are but 2 turns from acquiring the knowledge
of kings and princes [end of our turn 67]. Will you be able to
clarify the date of your acquisition of iron-working, and sailing
after that? We have great need to make plans for the future, and
would welcome your input. We can tell you that our friends in
Kazakhstan have begun their research into a Code of Laws and we will
most likely pursue knowledge of Mathematics next, but further
decisions are in flux.
As regards matters outside of our alliance: As our emissaries have
already conveyed, our Kazakh friends have come across a foreign people
in their explorations, who refer to themselves as Ninjas -- surely not
an epithet that would be chosen by a civilized race. They are located
far to the north and east of our cities, roughly north of Kazakhstan
on our continent's north coast. We expect to make contact with them
ourselves in the near future [about turn 70]. Discussions are underway
as to how best to deal with these outsiders, and we would appreciate
your input. To aid in your own deliberations, we offer the following
intelligence:
-- SANCTA's techs appear to be: fishing, agriculture, mining,
bronze-working, wheel, pottery, animal husbandry, mysticism,
meditation, priesthood, hunting and metal-casting. They imply that
they are studying iron-working.
-- Kazahkstan has agreed to a proposal from SANCTA in which Kazakhstan
declares war in order for their workboat to pass SANCTA's borders,
with negotiations to resume when peace is re-signed. As of now,
nothing has been traded between them. Kazakhstan covets metal-casting,
but is not willing to give up alphabet to get it.
-- SANCTA's capital is called Inner Sanctum; they have copper and fish
in the vicinity and have built a granary and at least one axeman. The
Oracle is in a different city.
-- By this point, SANCTA must be aware of our three-way trade alliance.
-- SANCTA appears to have ivory within their borders, as evidenced by
the current size and state of their capital, their presumed GNP, and
their latitude.
We appreciate that you shared the story of your scouts' penetration
deep into the interior of our continent. As you are aware, overland
scouting is one area in which we are deficient, and we would be most
grateful to learn of any strategic discoveries your scouts might make;
in particular, the existence of any passes. We are also very happy to
learn that you have sent a workboat to your northeast. We ourselves
have two workboats exploring; one, as mentioned, should meet SANCTA
soon. The other, you may have noticed, has finally reached civilized
land [i.e. your borders] after a very long sail. We are pleased that
trade routes will now be possible.
We would also like to inform you that our wisemen have foreseen that
the wild peoples of the world are very soon to acquire better weapons
[barb axes will start spawning 50-50 with warriors as of turn 66]. In
order to improve your defenses against such barbarity, we would like
you to know, in case you have not explored there yet, that there are
horses not too far away from where our workboat now floats. [At the
point to the southeast where the coastline turns sharply south, there
are three desert hills west to east. The western two hills have a
southern coast. The eastern hill has a desert tile directly south of
it with a plains tile south of that. On that plains tile is horses.]
We hope this may be of some use to you.
In friendship,
Renata dos Cavaleiros
Dear Mad Scientists,
We are delighted to learn that you have accepted the treaty! Let us
raise a non-alcoholic toast (who's the crazy person who mandated you
need monarchy to build vineyards, anyway?) to our glorious future. As
our friends in Kazakhstan have already stated their approval of the
treaty in its current form, you may consider it to be in effect
immediately. As such, we have extended an open borders offer to you,
and your warriors may enjoy our hospitality if they so desire.
We welcome our recent trades of knowledge, and anticipate more such
trades in the future! We are but 2 turns from acquiring the knowledge
of kings and princes [end of our turn 67]. Will you be able to
clarify the date of your acquisition of iron-working, and sailing
after that? We have great need to make plans for the future, and
would welcome your input. We can tell you that our friends in
Kazakhstan have begun their research into a Code of Laws and we will
most likely pursue knowledge of Mathematics next, but further
decisions are in flux.
As regards matters outside of our alliance: As our emissaries have
already conveyed, our Kazakh friends have come across a foreign people
in their explorations, who refer to themselves as Ninjas -- surely not
an epithet that would be chosen by a civilized race. They are located
far to the north and east of our cities, roughly north of Kazakhstan
on our continent's north coast. We expect to make contact with them
ourselves in the near future [about turn 70]. Discussions are underway
as to how best to deal with these outsiders, and we would appreciate
your input. To aid in your own deliberations, we offer the following
intelligence:
-- SANCTA's techs appear to be: fishing, agriculture, mining,
bronze-working, wheel, pottery, animal husbandry, mysticism,
meditation, priesthood, hunting and metal-casting. They imply that
they are studying iron-working.
-- Kazahkstan has agreed to a proposal from SANCTA in which Kazakhstan
declares war in order for their workboat to pass SANCTA's borders,
with negotiations to resume when peace is re-signed. As of now,
nothing has been traded between them. Kazakhstan covets metal-casting,
but is not willing to give up alphabet to get it.
-- SANCTA's capital is called Inner Sanctum; they have copper and fish
in the vicinity and have built a granary and at least one axeman. The
Oracle is in a different city.
-- By this point, SANCTA must be aware of our three-way trade alliance.
-- SANCTA appears to have ivory within their borders, as evidenced by
the current size and state of their capital, their presumed GNP, and
their latitude.
We appreciate that you shared the story of your scouts' penetration
deep into the interior of our continent. As you are aware, overland
scouting is one area in which we are deficient, and we would be most
grateful to learn of any strategic discoveries your scouts might make;
in particular, the existence of any passes. We are also very happy to
learn that you have sent a workboat to your northeast. We ourselves
have two workboats exploring; one, as mentioned, should meet SANCTA
soon. The other, you may have noticed, has finally reached civilized
land [i.e. your borders] after a very long sail. We are pleased that
trade routes will now be possible.
We would also like to inform you that our wisemen have foreseen that
the wild peoples of the world are very soon to acquire better weapons
[barb axes will start spawning 50-50 with warriors as of turn 66]. In
order to improve your defenses against such barbarity, we would like
you to know, in case you have not explored there yet, that there are
horses not too far away from where our workboat now floats. [At the
point to the southeast where the coastline turns sharply south, there
are three desert hills west to east. The western two hills have a
southern coast. The eastern hill has a desert tile directly south of
it with a plains tile south of that. On that plains tile is horses.]
We hope this may be of some use to you.
In friendship,
Renata dos Cavaleiros
Quick chat with Methos
- informed him that we met SANCTA
- explained state of war, and possible cease-fire
- told him where we met
- explained why we didn't accept tech trades
- 6 turns to sailing
- they will get back to us about where KAZ is in relation to Aristotle
me: Got some time?
dustem: sure. whats up?
me: We've met Sancta. Far to the east, a wandering Axe.
Memphus misclicked, and declared war. He then offered us a ceasefire. We're going to accept the ceasefire.
dustem: lol, thats funny but sucks
me: Yeah. btw - I've been gone for a few days, so I'm still catching up on stuff. No, we moved and saw him on a hill.
dustem: between kaz's very odd intro to sancta and you're dow'ing on them, they've got to wonder
just curious, but why aren't you guys wanting alphabet and monarchy?
whoops, memphus is on sancta, my mstake
me: We didn't declare. That's right - Memphus (SANCTA) misclicked when trying to go into the diplo screen. He had already pressed ALT... In any case, Axe vs. warrior means we'd lose that battle anyway. So we're going to try to keep exploring in that direction. We think we're beyond KAZ at this point, so we should hit the coast soon.
We encountered him about 30 tiles east of your new city (what's its name again?), at about the same latitude.
dustem: Cimeira
we believe our wb will meet them next turn
I don't have time right now, but later I'll log in and see about where in relation to Kaz you are
me: That's right. Cimeira Loca. Regarding techs: We declined Monarchy because we don't need it yet. We declined Alphabet because we don't want SANCTA or SATURN to see our techs yet (we still haven't met SATURN). We will ask for them when we need them. We have started research on Sailing. It's about 6 turns away, at the longest.
dustem: ok, was curious
have to go pick my wife up for lunch, so I'll be back later
me: HUSch is very keen on not letting the other teams know anything more than necessary through demo screen and civstats. CYA!
- informed him that we met SANCTA
- explained state of war, and possible cease-fire
- told him where we met
- explained why we didn't accept tech trades
- 6 turns to sailing
- they will get back to us about where KAZ is in relation to Aristotle
me: Got some time?
dustem: sure. whats up?
me: We've met Sancta. Far to the east, a wandering Axe.
Memphus misclicked, and declared war. He then offered us a ceasefire. We're going to accept the ceasefire.
dustem: lol, thats funny but sucks
me: Yeah. btw - I've been gone for a few days, so I'm still catching up on stuff. No, we moved and saw him on a hill.
dustem: between kaz's very odd intro to sancta and you're dow'ing on them, they've got to wonder
just curious, but why aren't you guys wanting alphabet and monarchy?
whoops, memphus is on sancta, my mstake
me: We didn't declare. That's right - Memphus (SANCTA) misclicked when trying to go into the diplo screen. He had already pressed ALT... In any case, Axe vs. warrior means we'd lose that battle anyway. So we're going to try to keep exploring in that direction. We think we're beyond KAZ at this point, so we should hit the coast soon.
We encountered him about 30 tiles east of your new city (what's its name again?), at about the same latitude.
dustem: Cimeira
we believe our wb will meet them next turn
I don't have time right now, but later I'll log in and see about where in relation to Kaz you are
me: That's right. Cimeira Loca. Regarding techs: We declined Monarchy because we don't need it yet. We declined Alphabet because we don't want SANCTA or SATURN to see our techs yet (we still haven't met SATURN). We will ask for them when we need them. We have started research on Sailing. It's about 6 turns away, at the longest.
dustem: ok, was curious
have to go pick my wife up for lunch, so I'll be back later
me: HUSch is very keen on not letting the other teams know anything more than necessary through demo screen and civstats. CYA!
Received via PM:
Methos said:
Letter from Oyzar of Os Cavaleiros:
Chat with Oyzar, discussing the above letter. Actually chatted while I was drafting my response to the letter 
me: Hi - are you still awake?
Øystein: I guess
me: It's not time-critical - I just read your letter.
If you'd rather chat tomorrow or Sunday, that's fine.
Øystein: well if you got things to tell me you could always say them now
me: Sure Initial thoughts: KAZ going for CS is smart. But why are they detouring through Monotheism? Is it only for the religion?
Øystein: well they also had to wait for us to finish math
me: True... I don't know if it's wise to trade Sailing and Monarchy at the same time. Can we give you Sailing when we play the save, and then get Monarchy from you on the following turn or two?
I'm worried about SANCTA figuring out that we are allied with you two.
Øystein: Well we would prefer sailing before we end our turn... getting it during our turn would look best anyways...
and i think sancta will find out sooner or later anyways...
me: Yes, they will find out sooner or later. But as long as they are guessing (and until The Triple Alliance has Metal Casting from them) I think we should guard our secrets. Did you request Sailing from us already in-game?
Øystein: I don't think so, not sure though
me: If you haven't, then I will instruct HUSch to offer you Sailing for nothing. Then in a turn or two, we'll request Monarchy from you. Does that work?
Øystein: Sure, but are you sure you don't need monarchy sooner(i am surprised you have waited this long given how important tech it is most of the time...) the ability to grow cities is very powerful.
me: Yes, I know that we want to grow larger as soon as possible... but the micro-managers on the team know more about that than I. btw - you had asked if there's anyone else to contact on our team. Daveshack is around a lot. But I don't know if he chats.
...and he's no MMer
Øystein: I don't think he have IM, i've asked him before
me: regarding tech: We were hoping to do Monotheism, but I'm not sure precisely why. That's why I was wondering if KAZ has their heart set on it.
Øystein: Well why do you want mono? for the civic? That can be fixed, you don't actually need the religion do you?
me: We already are Hindoo - so I doubt it's for the religion. ACtually, I suspect it is indeed for the civic: that's like a free forge in every city. Of course, most of our cities are tiny right now.
Øystein: Then, I am sure it can be aranged that you get mono too...
there is no reason to not share all techs eventually after all
me: Yes, of course. But for the next research goal... I'm checking our forum to see what we were discussing...
Øystein: right
Did your team discuss aestics / calendar / construction at all?
me: Well, all of the discussion has centered around Masonry and Monotheism so far. And there are some who don't want to research a tech [Aesthetics] just so that someone else can build a wonder - unless there's a way to compensate. You understand the emotion, I'm sure. We haven't discussed Calendar nor Construction.
Øystein: Well you can build wonders too....
me: I don't think there's really a way to compensate for that, except to be granted a right to build a different wonder. like you just said
Øystein: Well look at it another way, if they researched aestics and you researched CS instead you would get CS way slower for example...
while the same amount of beakers would have been spent on aestics
me: Are Aesthetics and CS the same cost?
Øystein: nope
me: I thought CS was far more expensive.
Øystein: CS is indeed far more expensive
me: just re-read, and now I understand your point. Just so you know, my own personal style of play is that when there is a partnership, each member is stronger with the gains of the other. In other words, with KAZ building Great Library, that benefits all 3 of us.
Øystein: I don't see the problem though.. The whole point of a tech alliance is that everyone should get access to what they need as as they need it/as fast as possible... The technicalities of beakers(at least to me) is secondary
me: I'm in complete agreement, but not every Mad Scientist sees it that way.
Øystein: well post this log then at least And uh, you don't plan to double research mono do you?
me: I'd rather we didn't double research - that just stunts all of us. I think the 'safety' tech should be Calendar - it's necessary eventually, and we've got lots of stuff that could use a plantation.
Øystein: For us the value of calendar would be close to zero and would likely mean some of us would have to double back to do aestics anyways...
me: ...looking at the tech tree now... [I don't know it inside and out ;-)]
5 minutes
me: You know, the more I look at the tree, the more I think it makes sense for us to do Aesthetics... and then something more utilitarian. Personally, I really like the Shwedagon Paya But I've never built it without gold. I'm pretty sure we don't have gold, but don't quote me on that.
Øystein: Well there is also music giving a free artist at the end of that line...
me: you'll have to work a little harder to sell me on a free GA. ;-) What's so great about that?
Øystein: well it can bulb theology if you have drama, or it could start a golden age at some point
me: Yeah, Golden Ages are useful... but I have a feeling that's not going to be a selling point for us. Don't worry, though - whatever tech we do, I'll do my best to see that it isn't one that you or KAZ is already doing (or planning to do). I'm going to push for Aesthetics...
Øystein: It is not really about pushing for any given tech, it is about working out which is best for all parties together...
me: Yes. But I think you're wrong about Calendar having zero benefit if you consider all three teams ;-)
Øystein: sure
me: So to wrap up: We
..will offer you Sailing on our turn...
Øystein: before that no?
We need it before we end our turn to get the benefit
it is one wasted beaker per city pretty much
me: I don't follow - how can you get it any earlier??
Øystein: I thought you gott it hitting enter last turn?
me: ..checking...
Correct. We now have it.
ps- so does someone else, I think.
Øystein: how do you know? From your gnp?`
you would have been able to tell if you had alpha, but i guess kaz can tell anyways, they just met saturn btw
me: I'm looking...
SANCTA appears to have it... you should see it next turn. Did KAZ find them with a wb?
Øystein: yeah, we met sancta too
me: You've known SANCTA for several turns now. You didn't notice that clever bit I sent them where I asked if they attacked an explorer of yours?? I consider it one of my finer moments
Øystein: maybe you could log in to offer it to us?
me: I can't - I'm at home, and I only have civ at work. But I'll be at work in less than 12 hours However, I can't really do anything like that without a majority of the team agreeing - I'm not the turnplayer.
Øystein: right
I'll post this chat on the forums
If you could get someone to offer sailing to us that would be great
me: Sounds good. I'll do what I can. Thanks for the chat
Øystein: good night
me: good night
me: Hi - are you still awake?
Øystein: I guess
me: It's not time-critical - I just read your letter.
If you'd rather chat tomorrow or Sunday, that's fine.
Øystein: well if you got things to tell me you could always say them now
me: Sure
Initial thoughts: KAZ going for CS is smart. But why are they detouring through Monotheism? Is it only for the religion?Øystein: well they also had to wait for us to finish math
me: True... I don't know if it's wise to trade Sailing and Monarchy at the same time. Can we give you Sailing when we play the save, and then get Monarchy from you on the following turn or two?
I'm worried about SANCTA figuring out that we are allied with you two.
Øystein: Well we would prefer sailing before we end our turn... getting it during our turn would look best anyways...
and i think sancta will find out sooner or later anyways...
me: Yes, they will find out sooner or later. But as long as they are guessing (and until The Triple Alliance has Metal Casting from them) I think we should guard our secrets. Did you request Sailing from us already in-game?
Øystein: I don't think so, not sure though
me: If you haven't, then I will instruct HUSch to offer you Sailing for nothing. Then in a turn or two, we'll request Monarchy from you. Does that work?
Øystein: Sure, but are you sure you don't need monarchy sooner(i am surprised you have waited this long given how important tech it is most of the time...) the ability to grow cities is very powerful.
me: Yes, I know that we want to grow larger as soon as possible... but the micro-managers on the team know more about that than I. btw - you had asked if there's anyone else to contact on our team. Daveshack is around a lot. But I don't know if he chats.
...and he's no MMer
Øystein: I don't think he have IM, i've asked him before
me: regarding tech: We were hoping to do Monotheism, but I'm not sure precisely why. That's why I was wondering if KAZ has their heart set on it.
Øystein: Well why do you want mono? for the civic? That can be fixed, you don't actually need the religion do you?
me: We already are Hindoo - so I doubt it's for the religion. ACtually, I suspect it is indeed for the civic: that's like a free forge in every city. Of course, most of our cities are tiny right now.
Øystein: Then, I am sure it can be aranged that you get mono too...
there is no reason to not share all techs eventually after all
me: Yes, of course. But for the next research goal... I'm checking our forum to see what we were discussing...
Øystein: right
Did your team discuss aestics / calendar / construction at all?
me: Well, all of the discussion has centered around Masonry and Monotheism so far. And there are some who don't want to research a tech [Aesthetics] just so that someone else can build a wonder - unless there's a way to compensate. You understand the emotion, I'm sure. We haven't discussed Calendar nor Construction.
Øystein: Well you can build wonders too....
me: I don't think there's really a way to compensate for that, except to be granted a right to build a different wonder. like you just said
Øystein: Well look at it another way, if they researched aestics and you researched CS instead you would get CS way slower for example...
while the same amount of beakers would have been spent on aestics
me: Are Aesthetics and CS the same cost?
Øystein: nope
me: I thought CS was far more expensive.
Øystein: CS is indeed far more expensive
me: just re-read, and now I understand your point. Just so you know, my own personal style of play is that when there is a partnership, each member is stronger with the gains of the other. In other words, with KAZ building Great Library, that benefits all 3 of us.
Øystein: I don't see the problem though.. The whole point of a tech alliance is that everyone should get access to what they need as as they need it/as fast as possible... The technicalities of beakers(at least to me) is secondary
me: I'm in complete agreement, but not every Mad Scientist sees it that way.
Øystein: well post this log then at least
And uh, you don't plan to double research mono do you?me: I'd rather we didn't double research - that just stunts all of us. I think the 'safety' tech should be Calendar - it's necessary eventually, and we've got lots of stuff that could use a plantation.
Øystein: For us the value of calendar would be close to zero and would likely mean some of us would have to double back to do aestics anyways...
me: ...looking at the tech tree now... [I don't know it inside and out ;-)]
5 minutes
me: You know, the more I look at the tree, the more I think it makes sense for us to do Aesthetics... and then something more utilitarian. Personally, I really like the Shwedagon Paya
But I've never built it without gold. I'm pretty sure we don't have gold, but don't quote me on that.Øystein: Well there is also music giving a free artist at the end of that line...
me: you'll have to work a little harder to sell me on a free GA. ;-) What's so great about that?
Øystein: well it can bulb theology if you have drama, or it could start a golden age at some point
me: Yeah, Golden Ages are useful... but I have a feeling that's not going to be a selling point for us. Don't worry, though - whatever tech we do, I'll do my best to see that it isn't one that you or KAZ is already doing (or planning to do). I'm going to push for Aesthetics...
Øystein: It is not really about pushing for any given tech, it is about working out which is best for all parties together...
me: Yes. But I think you're wrong about Calendar having zero benefit if you consider all three teams ;-)
Øystein: sure
me: So to wrap up: We
..will offer you Sailing on our turn...
Øystein: before that no?
We need it before we end our turn to get the benefit
it is one wasted beaker per city pretty much
me: I don't follow - how can you get it any earlier??
Øystein: I thought you gott it hitting enter last turn?
me: ..checking...
Correct. We now have it.
ps- so does someone else, I think.
Øystein: how do you know? From your gnp?`
you would have been able to tell if you had alpha, but i guess kaz can tell anyways, they just met saturn btw
me: I'm looking...
SANCTA appears to have it... you should see it next turn. Did KAZ find them with a wb?
Øystein: yeah, we met sancta too
me: You've known SANCTA for several turns now. You didn't notice that clever bit I sent them where I asked if they attacked an explorer of yours?? I consider it one of my finer moments
Øystein: maybe you could log in to offer it to us?
me: I can't - I'm at home, and I only have civ at work. But I'll be at work in less than 12 hours
However, I can't really do anything like that without a majority of the team agreeing - I'm not the turnplayer.Øystein: right
I'll post this chat on the forums
If you could get someone to offer sailing to us that would be great
me: Sounds good. I'll do what I can. Thanks for the chat
Øystein: good night
me: good night
Sent this note to Kaz and Cav to inform them of our research.
Quick note I sent to Niklas the cowboy - he's a friend of mine from the civ3 mtdg:
Hmm, the note to Cav and Kaz didn't actually send, it saved as draft.
I wonder if it's us they're waiting on?
I wonder if it's us they're waiting on?
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