Embassy with "The Brotherhood"

[Eclipse4449]

So we are making fun of them, yet we want to work with them

In my area Brothers of the Hood, short for neighborhood would be criminals or like a gang

 

[Calis]

From the Brotherhood:

Dear feathered friends,

we highly appreciate your openness to a close co-operation.

However, we believe that any negotiations will take a very long time if we only use posts in this forum to exchange information. Therefore we propose to have assign two emissaries, one from each civ, to go into a good chat with each other.

Until now, we had considered this to be you, Calis, for the Eagles, and Lanzelot on behalf of the Knights Brotherhood. But unfortunately Sir L is having trouble to solve the puzzles the keeper of the Bridge of Death gave him.

So I would take his place, and we could quickly go through any details we need to set up a deal that helps both sides.

I will pm you my email address.

templar_x

If nobody has a problem with it, I will try to meet templar_x via chat and post the log here.

 

[Cyc]

You may want to touch base with Lanzelot before you make any deals/proposals. Making this chat just a preliminary session.

 

[Cyc]

So we are making fun of them, yet we want to work with them

In my area Brothers of the Hood, short for neighborhood would be criminals or like a gang

We are not making fun of them. Monte Python has a cult following. It can be an honor to be recognized as doing tribute to the Nights who say Ni. The Holy Grail is after all the Holy Grail of role-playing.

The Brotherhood represents a close knit gathering of like minds. It can sometimes be used to represent religious or professional groups. It adds weight to their name.

 

[Chamnix]

If nobody has a problem with it, I will try to meet templar_x via chat and post the log here.

Go ahead.

 

[CommandoBob]

So we are making fun of them, yet we want to work with them

We are sharing a common joke, so we are laughing with them, but not at them.

It would be like showing up at a Star Trek convention, dressed in costume from the Original Series (Kirk, Spock and McCoy) and wearing a red colored shirt. The joke: people that wore red were the ones that died. Anyone dressed like this would be "in" on the joke so any comments they got at the convention would be by others also "in" on the joke.

Spoiler :

 

[CharlemagneXLII]

This is a good sign, please do a chat when you can. The quicker we negotiate this the better since we need to sort out our policy towards Kuche soon. Later I'll try to come up with a reply to Kuche that declines further trades in a way that keeps doors open.

 

[Cyc]

Later I'll try to come up with a reply to Kuche that declines further trades in a way that keeps doors open.

Sounds like family life.

 

[Calis]

chat between templar_x and myself:

calis says


sollen wir das auf englisch machen? Sonst müssen wir nachher alles übersetzten22:43
kein problem..

templar_x says


wollte ich auch gerade fragen / wanted to ask the same question22:43
english is fine for me..

calis says


alright. let's go. What's your guys idea regarding our proposal?22:44

templar_x says


generally speaking we are all pro it22:44
however we have to clear a few things first..

calis says


go ahead22:44

templar_x says


only very few things that are important to us... sorry if i become technical22:45
but we need to be able to assume that whatever we are talking about now stays stricly confidential..
can we agree on this?22:46

calis says


definately. Just my team will see this.22:46

templar_x says


like mine. ok22:46
i want to speak very openly, because there is a special situation both of our teams seem to be in..

calis says


yepp22:46

templar_x says


if we want to progress fast, we need to rush a bit through the phase of learning to know each other.22:47
until now even the two of us only know that the other holds quite a few hof #1-spots 22:48

calis says


working on more 22:48

templar_x says


not me currently... little baby at home22:48
all my civ time is going into the isdg7 currently..

calis says


ya, I know what you are going through22:48
mine are 7 and 222:49

templar_x says


would not say that i am going through anything. it is quite a bit better than civ *g*22:49

calis says


you know what I mean22:49

templar_x says


and mine is 5 months. he is very balanced22:49
so i even get some sleep..
but a baby AND 70+ hours of work per week..
does not net you a lot of time for anything else22:50
ok, for what i believe we need to know as some raw data.....
i will start with stating , that our knights´ nation is Carthago22:51
so we were planning to play rather peacefully..

calis says


We assumed that already22:51
Did you also guess who we are?22:52

templar_x says


not me, but we have our magicians22:52
but i cannot access the thread right now hahahaha22:53
i believe they said Byzanz..
*still trying to open*..

calis says


Not a bad guess...22:53
I will try to copy that into our forum, just know whether it works. gimme a minute22:54

templar_x says


ok. ahhh,now i got it.22:55
they said you must be seafaring...
either Byz, or Port or England..

calis says


Your industrial trait was easier to be identified...22:56

templar_x says


by the speed of our improvements?22:56

calis says


right22:56

templar_x says


ok, you will let me know some time whether i was only guessing well, or right, or wrong...22:57
did it work?..

calis says


nope, I can't mark the text :-(22:58

templar_x says


the traits of our civs is the one important thing, that is why i am starting with this22:58

calis says


Well, if you have to chose between Portugal, England and The Byzantines, what would your choice be?22:58

templar_x says


the other important factor is how we are getting along with our nighbours22:58
i sure would not take portugal..
england and the byz are both fine. personally i probably would choose the byz in a game like that, and france against AIs22:59
oh... copy/paste does not work?..
that is bad..
i tried, it did work for me23:00

calis says


hmmm
ahh, ok it works for me, too now. go ahead...23:01

templar_x says


well, i did 23:01
wrong smiley23:02
..
you typing or eating dinner?..

calis says


I am typing...23:03
Well, ok, let's get that straight. We are the Byzantines. That is why Literature would be important for us.23:04

templar_x says


logical23:04
and how do you get along with the Küche?..
obviously they are not researching Lit for you?!?!23:05

calis says


We just met them shortly before we met you (or you us).23:05

templar_x says


how come???23:05

calis says


Well it seems that our scouting units managed to get past each other regularly.23:06

templar_x says


must be like that. they do not even reply to our welcome notice23:06

calis says


That's not nice behaviour23:07

templar_x says


we have met the civ to share the continent with us quite a while ago already23:07

calis says


And do you get along with them?23:07

templar_x says


it is not (nice behaviour). however, i remember another tribe that immediately demanded that we provide WH when we met them...23:07

calis says


....23:07
That was a mistake and we apologized for that23:08

templar_x says


we already wondered why you did not yet have seemed to exchange any serious techs with them. and could not explain to us how your contact could have gone so long.23:08
yes, you did. ..
i should have added a smiley23:09
Cyc wrote a whole book about it, but did not really ... whatever. not what we wanted to talk about..
as i said, our relations with the Anarchie already last for quite a while23:10
(coming to the next point...)..
and they seem to develop quite well23:11

calis says


With d7 they have at least one outstanding player, I'd say.23:11

templar_x says


i do not know him, as i do not know anyone from the team. since the ISDG started i read a few threads over at civforum. honestly, i could not say. but obviously you and many from our team know him better, and everyone says he is a very good player23:12
but HE is saying that justanick and another player from Küche were so much better... 23:13
i realize i am typing 90% of the words. either i am waffling, or i am the faster typer of the two of us :- )))..

calis says


justanick seems to have deep knowledge of the game. I never saw him playing any game, though. But I think he is excellent, too.23:14
So no team seems to lack good players.....

templar_x says


yupp.23:14

calis says


Unlikely that an Austrian is fatser than a German 23:15
faster I mean..

templar_x says


you never watched skiing, did you?23:15
..

calis says


Not really, no23:15

templar_x says


me neither.23:15

calis says


More Formula 123:15

templar_x says


no again23:16

calis says


But back to topic. What is your idea of treating the respective civ on our continents.23:16

templar_x says


but let me check on the fastest finishes on standard maps...23:16
..
yes, back to topic...
as i had said, we originally had planned to play peacefully..

calis says


If you met Anarchy a while ago, there has probably hapened some negotiations23:16
originally23:17
?..
but now?..

templar_x says


and then met the Anarchos, and we seemed to agree on a lot of points23:17
so to enter into a continental alliance..
as i said, i am authorized to talk very openly. if we fail to get somewhere, you will know a lot about us.23:18
no worries..
(we are the ones with a government )..
seriously.....
things became a bit difficult, to say the least23:19
we did not really know why, but then found out (or let´s be fair: believed to quite surely found out) that the negotiations with us about a peaceful alliance were seconded by their internal plans to engage into a war with us23:20
still we did actually already start and engage into a joint research program, which means that at least for the moment we are quite a bit ahead..

calis says


I basically have the impression that those Civ Forum guys are rather agressive23:21
in game of course ..
That is, why we basically prefer to have a deal with a civ of the other continent23:22

templar_x says


let me think... we are on another continent...23:22

calis says


wow, good point23:22

templar_x says


btw, do you happen to know or can you guess which tribe the Küche is?23:22

calis says


No, we are really confused about them23:23
And what about Anarchy..

templar_x says


we believe the Küche is Persia, France or Osmania23:23

calis says


Persia would be fearsome in the early game23:24

templar_x says


Anarchy we do know, and we will let you know when we find an agreement. until then, i can tell you, that they are not seafaring23:25

calis says


That is just fair!23:25

templar_x says


honestly, we fear that they use us to get an advantage over the other continent, and then turn against us23:26
like you said, they defenitely have very good players..
this is why we also prefer to ally with someone from the other continent..

calis says


As I mentioned, we currently do not have any deal (except for minor trades) with Küche23:28

templar_x says


this gives several opportunities for how the game continues23:28

calis says


And of course, the outcome of this negotiations will decide about future plans23:28

templar_x says


like: if both of us agree to prepare to take over each continent, respectively23:28
then we could either agree that some time in a future, our alliance ends, as fair partners and allies, and then we play everything out between us23:29
or we could agree on a space ship competition..
and stay peaceful towards each other for the whole game ..
and even you abstain from using nukes this time )))..

calis says


hehe23:30
But for such an endgame agreement it is far too early right now. ..
But I think it is a rather good idea to ally against the continental opponents. I do not have an idea whether they already met, or not. They will immediately ally, too.23:31

templar_x says


they have not. WE know
how would you imagine the goal of such an alliance then?23:33

calis says


That's good news, I'd say23:33

templar_x says


only short term?23:33

calis says


The same as ours?23:33

templar_x says


i meant, did you guys only consider short term goals in an alliance? 23:34

calis says


Not me personally, and I am sure also not the team23:34
I have no problem with an alliance until we are the two remaining civs.23:35

templar_x says


we had some good discussion going already, that is why i can say that we had discussed at least those two options for the later game (if an alliance builds and each civ can gain its continent)23:35
quite a few in our team are in favor of sth like that (as far as i can tell)23:36

calis says


That is good.23:37
We have one thing that puts us under time pressure. As soon as you send us your turn, we'll have..
CoL finished and need to decide what to research next23:38

templar_x says


anything else from the eagles side that you have already contemplated?23:38

calis says


If we get to a deal, we'd start Map Making of course23:38

templar_x says


yes, we will but fast enough for that, i am sure23:38
if you start MM, we could provide Lit for example23:39

calis says


Nothing more from our side. Everybody is just interseted about your ideas and attitude towards us and an alliance.23:39
I think you already started Republic?..

templar_x says


of course23:40
but we already provided to the Anarchie what they will give us Lit for.....

calis says


So our idea was to do MM, Literature and Maths for your Republic.23:40

templar_x says


exactly, that would be my next point.23:40
aside from MM, that would not help us much. but we need to discuss that and find an agreement23:41
i believe you will need that as well, especially if the Küche really is Persia.....
then you might be a bit in a hurry...

calis says


So what would you like to get for Rep?23:43

templar_x says


before we found out, that the agreement we had formulated with the Anarchie, and what they obviously must have discussed internally, was quite a bit apart, we did practically seal everything for the joint research pact that i had mentioned above23:43
we believe it would not make any sense but to bluntly tell you that this is in place. but it will not last, because now we know about their real plans..
what we would like to have for Rep is MM + a 50% discount on your free MA tech23:44
but we need to adjust a few parameters to be able to make that deal so the Anarchie does not find out, that we already found out, what they are planning to do23:45

calis says


Such a decision I can't make here of course.23:45
But it seems reasonable to me at least23:46

templar_x says


of course. it is a first idea anyway.23:46
you know, our research is able to get many techs within a very short period already. so AA techs are not very valuable to us..

calis says


Yeah, but still you need them at some point23:47

templar_x says


plus, until the A "realize that we realized" they will still provide some more technologies23:47
and they seem to be #2 in beakers behind us right now..

calis says


Be not too sure about that last point 23:49

templar_x says


i am not, it was just a guess23:49

calis says


strange smiley thing here23:49
Whes is the ETA for your Republic research=23:50
?..

templar_x says


soon. +/- 10 turns23:51
how long would you need to get there, absolutely max speed?..

calis says


I'd guess about 20 turns. But just a rough guess23:52

templar_x says


i am asking because, if we start this, should not let the Anarchie know immediately when they meet you that you got Rep from us.23:53
because i assume you would like to have it asap..
but maybe we can time it so that you at least theoretically could have researched it yourself..

calis says


As mentioned in our proposal, we would love to get it as a prepayment for whatever you want from us, yes.23:53

templar_x says


however, we would support you with whatever else we could gain from the trades with Anarchie23:54
especially with whatever you need to gain control over your continent..
if it is really immortals you are up against, in their GA, you may need a bit of that23:55
these techs we would not intend to trade to you at full costs..
if that does sound fair to you..

calis says


yes, it does.23:56
Alright, how do we finish today?..

templar_x says


i only need to say, nobody knows how long these trades can go on. many in our team are not really excited to know that we had negotiated an alliance with the Anarchie only to see that the very first deal was not really one that they should plan to keep forever23:57
do you have curraghs out to explore?..
or Küche (as far as you know)?23:58

calis says


We have of course. We did not see any boats from Küche, yet.23:58

templar_x says


we believe that you should stop scouting towards our continent, so to not to meet the Anarchie23:58
this would make everything a lot more complicated with tech trade23:59
this is only a recommendation, because we believe it would benefit our alliance..

calis says


Hm, I am not sure whether I can convince my team mates of this.23:59
But we'll see...

templar_x says


we would be ready to provide you the geographical information.23:59
or whatever you were looking for0:00

calis says


I need to find an end now. Do you have some time left on your turn clock? Or is a time-out necessary?0:00

templar_x says


we have enough time left0:01
2 more points.....

calis says


ok0:01

templar_x says


of course we would want to agree that you do not pass Republic to the Küche0:01
this should be logical, but it needs to be said0:02
(or any other tech we trade you, except if both of us agree)..

calis says


We would be stupid to do it. Our plan is to keep them as backward as possible.0:02

templar_x says


how soon do you believe you would be ready to strike to gain control of your continent?0:03
and what would you need for this (and what would you need us to supply)?..

calis says


That is very hard to guess. We are in our expansion phase and try to avoid conflicts right now.0:03

templar_x says


is there a lot of land still unsettled on your continent? it seems like you are going for a ultra fast rex0:04

calis says


There is some space left, yes0:04

templar_x says


can you make an estimate? 0:05
because we should then try to agree on a combined approach..
as you said, the two civforum civs will immediately ally of course..

calis says


I agree on a combined approach, but I do not dare to guess, really.0:05

templar_x says


what do you think about the late AA? can you manage to muster an army until then and keep that plan hidden?0:06
i would say we need to do this with our teams:0:07
- let them discuss whether they think what we were talking about was wise or nonsense..
- find a "Republic deal"..
- find a common idea of what is the ultimate goal of this alliance, and what should come right after that..

calis says


agreed0:08
I'll post the chat in our forum right after we finished and my fellow American team mates have time to discuss, while I take a bit of sleep0:09

templar_x says


anything else?0:11
for today?..

calis says


not from my side, no

templar_x says


can you live with a no nukes deal?0:11
hahaha..

calis says


We are not going to nuke you within the next 100 turns, ok?0:12

templar_x says


even more 0:12
but you are REALLY lagging in research, right?..
..

calis says


0:13

templar_x says


well then, I promise we won´t start the ss while you sleep tonight then0:13
i will post our conversation to my team..

calis says


OK! See you soon. I'll go to bed now. Bye0:14

templar_x says


good night. bye

 

[CommandoBob]

No nukes? Who is he kidding?

What's wrong with a little radioactive glow, anyway? Sure beats a nightlight.

Serious
Sees to be a fairly balanced game. Fanatics meet and become allies, CivForum guys meet up and become allies. Each forum fighting against the other forum.

I did not sense any falseness in the conversation on their part. They did ask questions that Calis could not answer, but I'm sure they knew that.

Not sure about not meeting the fourth team; that is a bit different.

Tech trading looked okay but AA techs are not my strong point.

 

[CharlemagneXLII]

I'm not sure what to think of this. They want to avoid giving us the republic, and don't want us to meet Anarchie. I think a trade for our MA tech is a good idea though. We should press to get republic sooner rather than later- say by the time we research map making. We can trade MM for republic, then give our discounted MA tech later down the road. We of course want to meet Anarchie, there is no good reason not to (plus we can hear their side of the story).

We should discuss the possible civs of the other teams- if we asked them why they have those civs in mind for Kuche we might be able to get a better idea of who they are. If Kuche really is Persia we might prefer to cooperate with them at least in the short term. A deal with Kuche, where we research republic, would only get us the republic about 10 turns later based on the estimates in the log. If the Brotherhood wants to delay giving it to us, it's not much of a difference to get it ourselves.

 

[Cyc]

I pretty much agree with CharlemagneXLII. We should stress getting the Republic as soon as The Brotherhood goes into Anarchy. We should have MM by then and someone can decide what is the best discount to give them on our MA bonus tech. 50%? That's a lot beter than giving them the tech.

I am put off by the feeling that they want to restrict us to their agenda. They want to string us along until they feel it's right for us to change governments. They want us to elude contact with the Anarchy until it suits their purpose. They want us to build up an Army to battle the Kitchen because they think the Kitchen will ally with the Anarchy as their foe. And they are about to screw the Anarchy out of Republic, so war is definitely on the horizon. They NEED an ally at this point because of their relationship (or lack of) with the Anarchy. They may be able to research faster than us, but they're in deep do-do and need our help. And I don't think the Kitchen is Persia. I think the Brotherhood is just using fear tactics to get us to abide by their wishes.

The Republic asap for MM and a discounted MA bonus tech sounds good to me. I think finding The Anarchy would be a good idea. We can use them as leverage for getting The Republic on time, by leaning towards an alliance with them.

 

[Calis]

I did not have the impression that they do not want to give us Republic right after researching it. I believe, if we agree to their proposal, which I find reasonable, they would give us Republic right after researching it.

So, if Brotherhood agrees to this, would we be willing to form a long-term alliance with them?

Meeting Anarchy would reduce their research costs for several techs that both Brotherhood and we ahve already. And Brotherhood would have more difficulties to get more techs out of them, as Anarchy will probably recognize that we are trading techs.

Maybe someone else can come up with reasons, why it would be better, not to meet Anarchy!?

 

[Cyc]

I did not have the impression that they do not want to give us Republic right after researching it. I believe, if we agree to their proposal, which I find reasonable, they would give us Republic right after researching it.

calis says
strange smiley thing here23:49
Whes is the ETA for your Republic research=23:50
?..

templar_x says
soon. +/- 10 turns23:51
how long would you need to get there, absolutely max speed?..

calis says
I'd guess about 20 turns. But just a rough guess23:52
We shall know after next turn. Deciding when we know for sure may be a better idea. Even your estimate was twice their research time.

templar_x says
i am asking because, if we start this, should not let the Anarchie know immediately when they meet you that you got Rep from us.23:53
Easily done. We won't tell them.
because i assume you would like to have it asap..
but maybe we can time it so that you at least theoretically could have researched it yourself..
Does he mean the 20 turns you just told him? I'm sure The Anarchy can monitor research speed as well as we can. We are beelining for Republic (except for Pottery) so there won't be much of a variance for The Anarchy to debate about.

calis says
As mentioned in our proposal, we would love to get it as a prepayment for whatever you want from us, yes.23:53
Plain as day.

templar_x says
however, we would support you with whatever else we could gain from the trades with Anarchie23:54
He'll give us everything we want, except what we want
especially with whatever you need to gain control over your continent..
if it is really immortals you are up against, in their GA, you may need a bit of that23:55
these techs we would not intend to trade to you at full costs..
if that does sound fair to you..
Yes, we can always use more techs. But it's the timely delivery of The Republic we want. Thank him for all the fluff about how he's going to help us become a better ally to him by building Archers and Catapults.

So, if Brotherhood agrees to this, would we be willing to form a long-term alliance with them?

Yes. If the Brotherhood gives us Republic as soon as they go into Anarchy (or sooner) in trade for MapMaking and a discounted bonus tech, the deal sounds good for a long term relationship.

Meeting Anarchy would reduce their research costs for several techs that both Brotherhood and we ahve already. And Brotherhood would have more difficulties to get more techs out of them, as Anarchy will probably recognize that we are trading techs.

Maybe someone else can come up with reasons, why it would be better, not to meet Anarchy!?

On a map this small on turn 55?, we will have to work very hard NOT to meet the Anarchy if they want to find us. If it becomes easier for the Anarchy to reseach a few AA techs, it is not a big loss. If it becomes more difficult for the Brotherhood to glean techs out of the Anarchy, remember... they are about to screw their newly formed ally out of The Republic tech. Hmmm. Do we resemble a team like that?

 

[CharlemagneXLII]

If they are willing to give us republic right away, and some geographical information, then I would be ok with a longer term alliance. That way we can do scouting and be positioned to meet Anarchy when we choose to do so.

I agree with Cyc that they may be trying to scare us by suggesting Kuche is Persia (or France or Ottomans), I had forgotten we know they are not industrious. That means that they really are having difficulties with Anarchy, who must have a strong ancient UU. That's why Anarchy is being aggressive, and that's why they didn't tell us who Anarchy is playing as.

Now if Anarchy is going to fight the Brotherhood, can we benefit more from allying with the Brotherhood or Kuche? I'd be willing to bet our allying with Kuche would be enough to prevent the other two from attacking each other. With the brotherhood we'll get Republic faster and be more likely to be much more advanced than our enemies. With Kuche, we get to use our Dromon more effectively, but would be more susceptible to backstabs, though they might be scientific.

 

[Calis]

I doubt that Anrchie will be able to beat Brotherhood that easily. There are some very good players in the Brotherhood (e.g. memento, I.Larkin, templar_x). And if they are aware that Anarchie is planning something, they will be prepared.

Maybe I am too convinced of their honesty. But I tend to trust their words.

So IF they accept to give us Republic as soon as researched for MM plus our MA freebee for 50% of beaker costs, I think everybody is fine with allying with them long term?

I am.

 

[Chamnix]

I am also.

However, we still need ancient age techs. The Brotherhood could be waiting a long time for our free Middle Age tech since they seem to be confident their Ancient Age will end relatively soon, but that's not our problem.

 

[Calis]

I will wait until this evening for further comments and then will inform them about our position.

 

[Sparthage]

I'm in favor of the CFC Alliance as well.

 

[Calis]

My proposal for a message to The Brotherhood:

Dear Brotherhood,

We want to thank you for your open words and clear requests during our negotiations.

This is what we feel right now:

First of all, we want to accept for proposal that we give you Map Making plus a 50% discount on our MA free tech for Republic. The only thing we would like to be sure about is that we get Republic from you as soon as you finished researching it. From our talks we were not 100% sure whether you already agreed to this!?

The second point is that we need a more detailed explanation, why you are thinking that us NOT meeting Anarchy is beneficial for our future alliance. Points that we see are seeing is reduced research costs for them (if we meet that is) and better hiding of our agreement. Maybe you see more than that!?

Please understand that there is a small paranoid part in us that says: “But who guarantees us that Brotherhood is not doing the same with Anarchy against us?” Please do not feel offended by that, but we want to continue the open talk that we started with. If you guys promise us that we are your only (long-term) allies we will trust you and will happily join an alliance with you.

This is just a quick response to speed up the game pace again. Of course we have to create some long-term research and military plans.
In friendship

Calis of the Flock