(Emperor, Frederick) Help, I am Far Behind in Tech After Axe Rushing My Only Neighbor on the Continent

mutax2003

Rider of China, 4-3-3
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In this emperor continent game, I played as Frederick and shared the continent with Babylon. I axed rushed Hammy and killed him off over three wars. He was down to the last city, had ten techs more than me, and would only give a crammy meditation tech for peace. So I rejected that, and killed him off. Now it is 1475 AD, and I am far behind the other continent. Liberalism was won by Darius in 1000AD. What would you have done differently to win? Attached are some saves.
 

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You can really improve your current situation by getting Ivory from Louis (cancel copper), and 10gpt from Charlie.
I mostly mention that cos those trades are so important for keeping a big empire economy up..shouldn't matter if an AI dislikes you, sell them stuff anyhoo.
And keep an eye on possibly improving deals (or cancelling demands).

No city on wealth suggests you overbuild buildings :)
Aqueducts are weak and usually just useful when factories arrive.

We can use Nippur as good example..why worry about health if you struggle with keeping your cities happy.
Active city automation can seriously hold back their development..for example when i switch to wealth, Nippur assigns a spy specialist.

All auto means they are basically managed like AI cities.
But if you would like to catch up in difficult games that's not good enuf.
Switching just one tile manually disables automation (and you will never drop awesome 6:food: tiles again).

Some units are in the wrong places..they should all assist with making big cities happier.
Stuttgart or Dortmund need no Axe..3 are randomly standing on a jungle.

Maybe these things do not sound like much on their own..but everything combined at least partly explains why you fall behind, while fighting a long war.
 
In this emperor continent game, I played as Frederick and shared the continent with Babylon. I axed rushed Hammy and killed him off over three wars. He was down to the last city, had ten techs more than me, and would only give a crammy meditation tech for peace. So I rejected that, and killed him off. Now it is 1475 AD, and I am far behind the other continent. Liberalism was won by Darius in 1000AD. What would you have done differently to win? Attached are some saves.
I loaded your 1475AD save and notice a lot of things that are probably being overlooked. I will share them and try to help!

You're in caste system and pacifism but aren't running any specialists, so you would be better off in slavery and organized religion to build happiness and health buildings. Nippur has loads of unworked young cottages because you've turned on emphasize production and don't seem to have spent any time working them with all that food.

You need to work on selecting better settling locations. For example, Hamburg is missing the sheep and the fish, which would be amazing tiles for it to work.

You have a respectable sized empire, but your tech rate is terrible because you aren't working the cottages.

You're in hereditary rule but aren't building cheap happiness units to garrison your cities and have random military units near Charlie's border. In a pinch, build the cheapest hammer combat unit you can. You can even whip them to get rid of the unhappy population after you swap to slavery. You also need to keep an eye on the trades you can make with other AI before they trade away unique resources to other AIs. For example, you built markets, but did you notice that you currently don't have access to any of the resources that allows it to give you extra happiness? That makes the building much weaker as a focus. Building wealth after getting Currency is generally better, especially if you have lots of hammers and food and need money fast without being a financial/alive civ.

I would strongly suggest that you manage your own cities and not rely on the AI to do it or build for you. It adds a lot more time in play, but you won't have the AI city manager flip off of a cottage to work a coastal tile or flip off a corn to work a mine. You can turn on the city manager if the game is already in the bag though and have a huge population because then you won't need to worry about the city manager assigning them to bad tiles lol
 
I will teach you a strategy that I like to use on Immortal with great success!

Check this out:

I started cottaging over your many, many farms that weren't feeding specialists, especially the floodplains. I also moved units around ASAP for happiness, especially fast-moving chariots, from low-pop cities to high-pop cities. That allowed me to work the cottage tiles right away. I had to cancel all your random roads; there are already way too many of them. Your capital is amazing for farming great people. Actually amazing. There are soooo many food tiles. I built libraries with the help of organized religion and slavery in nearly all of your cities. I put 2 scientists on to get your first great person. I started a golden age with them, and flipped into caste system and pacifism. If you had access to representation, I would have flipped into that as well. Note: there is NO ANARCHY during a golden age, so you can flip into civics and out of civics without worry. You also have a PHILOSOPHICAL LEADER, which makes this strategy extra-effective as they have a 100% bonus to generating great people.

Spoiler :


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NOTE CAREFULLY! You can have unlimited scientists, artists, and merchants in a golden age, so make sure to STARVE your empire! Why? Because the beakers you get from great scientists/merchants are WAY MORE VALUABLE on-net when you bulb key techs with them rather than the few bonus tile yields you get from working tiles with citizens instead. If you weren't so late in tech, you could beat the AI to Liberalism and other techs that get you free things for being first to research them (techs, great people, etc). This allows you to leapfrog the AI easily, even on Immortal/Deity.

You will also see a picture of all the cities I am starving. I am running scientists to the extent you can't see them listed in total. You can also see all of the cottages and happiness differences that have turned your economy around.

Spoiler :


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As the cities were about to lose population, I checked how close they were to starving down to see how many turns until I got another great person. It's a judgement call if you want to try starving to the point of losing pop if you're close, but I generally never do that unless I'm guaranteed to get a great person. You don't want to starve to nothing or cripple your economy for when you flip out of the golden age. During the last turn of the golden age, I swapped back into slavery and organized religion so I can build more buildings easier and go back to working the cottages. I was able to catch you up substantially with the AI in tech by bulbing with great scientists and creating an academy in your highest-yield research/commerce city. The final great person I got was a spy (yuck), but they'll be perfect for setting up the next golden age. Berlin is already getting close to generating another great person. I also turned off the slider to make use of your markets. Having the slider at zero when out of a golden age is a good idea with a lot of financial buildings + cottages because you will get an income bonus. Research the next tech once you have enough money to do it all at once. Doing this also avoids the rounding losses that CIV IV calculates when adjusting for your actual income rate. This is more important with a smaller empire earlier on than later in the game, but it still makes a difference if you have a lot of cities because each city will have its own slight loss due to rounding. I also built more windmills because they're going to feed your cities better than unworked mines while still allowing your to build wealth. After swapping civics, I re-balanced the empire to work cottages again, dropped the research to zero, and ended the golden age.

Spoiler :


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Thanks all for your advices. I will retry the game by manually working more cottages, use cheap military garrison under hereditary rule, and emphasize specialists in my specialists cities.

I missed out the sheep in my copper city because I wanted a faster rush, instead of waiting for the border to pop before I can access copper. Come to think of it, the location is kind if far away, maybe I would be better off with a chariot/horse archer rush on Hammy instead. Also, do you recommend worker stealing and choking him at the beginning?
 
Thanks all for your advices. I will retry the game by manually working more cottages, use cheap military garrison under hereditary rule, and emphasize specialists in my specialists cities.

I missed out the sheep in my copper city because I wanted a faster rush, instead of waiting for the border to pop before I can access copper. Come to think of it, the location is kind if far away, maybe I would be better off with a chariot/horse archer rush on Hammy instead. Also, do you recommend worker stealing and choking him at the beginning?
Yeah, that city is so far and commerce poor (aside from the gold) that it doesn't play much of a role early in the game. If you are going for Hammy, then hit him soon and hard. Don't try to bum techs off of him. Just kill him off. Settle towards him and chop and army out/whip an army out. Then expand before the other AI take all that good land. You'll have a great continent and can win however you'd like to. Will you keep updating us?
 
I promise I read the whole thread.

Did you have no other choice but to attack the Babylonians with axeman?
 
I played this map from the start for a bit of fun.
Spoiler :
It is a fairly annoying start. Thankfully Emperor is forgiving. I built GLH in capital and Oracle (Monarchy as not much happiness) in another city. Also HA rushed Hammy. This was a bit cheeky but seemed doable given Emperor difficulty. Think going for Hammy early is worthwhile as his land is nice with all the rivers. Don't remember much else that I build as it was all a bit irrelevant by then. Expanded up to 19 cities or so and then Cav rushed the world.
Spoiler :

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You took axes to an Ai that has 50% bonus vs melee with bowman? Far off Hamburg would have been costly due to distance from your capital. So much food on this start. Crazy time for whipping stuff.

HA all the way here.

However 12 tiles is a long distance to do a rush. Even harder with 1 city at 1050bc. Could you of split up the capital's resources between 2 cities?
 
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