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Emperor Perikles of Greece

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Harv, Mar 24, 2020.

  1. Harv

    Harv Emperor Supporter

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    Two Gold Mines and a Crashed Economy
    to Turn 93

    I went with Sailing, because I thought it would come in handy at some point in time. I'm still working on fitting in a work boat. I might have done well do do that in Lyons in between whips, which have not started yet. I guess I was thinking I could just whip a galley.

    Turn 85 - Sailing - and we are grinding our way towards Currency

    Spoiler :

    upload_2020-3-31_19-59-19.png

    upload_2020-3-31_19-59-36.png

    .....and we officially balanced the budget
    upload_2020-3-31_19-59-56.png


    The economy should get better soon.

    Next city - I was thinking somewhere by the wheat, but not much of a good site. An alternative is along the river by the silk and floodplain. Anything else and we are going to have to explore a bit more and find something.

    No great scientist yet. I put the scientists to work, instead. At this point, I don't think that kills us.

    I took this save, because it was the turn before another whip cycle begins. What should we be building?
     

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  2. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    I will have a look when home in 3 hours or so.

    Long as you have cottages crashed economy is a good thing. Mongolians have more cities than you.

    Yes I might of left him one city if I could get iron working and other techs. Situational. Wiping out saves some we want to join mother land unhappiness.
     
  3. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Okay thoughts.
    Cities.
    Would it be better for Lyon to grab the marble resource? I see Paris as a great place for cottages. You are currently not using the cottage you have built. You don't have enough workers to clear the forest on the riverland grasslands.
    Orleans. I would be growing the city before you run the gold resource. It's happiness will rise when you have a city defender and whip anger resides. So getting to size 4 quicker is better. So 2x cottage and 1 farm for 2 turns? There is no harm have unhappy citizens.

    You need granaries in cities before you run research. Key building for growth. I spot at least 3 with no granary yet your running research.

    I would also whip a workboat in Thebes to explore. You want the 2c trade routes.

    You need a city west of Sparta. 2 juicy flood plains to be cottaged. Grassland road looks good. That can be whipped from Athens at size 6.

    What to do with wheat city. Ideally you want those flood plains. i wondered about 1N of that middle flood plains. Allows quite a few grassland cottages.

    You have stone nearby but lack masonry. Otherwise fail gold would of been good.

    You need to focus on one core city for growth and commerce. Your not really doing that. So academy adds less value. Right now Athens is not an academy city.

    You need 2-3 more workers here. Or to manage them better. With so much land to work more would really help. Either chop or whip cities with no cottages. 4 turn worker in Sparta?

    As the 3 gold resources are worked things will improve. You need to send a unit to find mongols and check for stacks. He is a warmonger by heart.

    Lots to think about. Currency vs masonry. Hmmm. Pends how close Ai are to mids.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2020
  4. Harv

    Harv Emperor Supporter

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    Stone nearby but lack marble? Paris / Lyons has marble. Okay, I can whip a city in that grassland tile near that iron I’m not supposed to know about because it was revealed in alternate history.

    Research without granary - I was thinking start one turn, whip the next. I could have had several hammers towards a work boat in lyons
     
  5. Harv

    Harv Emperor Supporter

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    to Turn 101

    We built two more cities.

    Spoiler :

    upload_2020-4-1_22-23-21.png

    upload_2020-4-1_22-23-42.png

    upload_2020-4-1_22-23-51.png



    Maybe Masonry for some Marble Wonder Fail-Gold might have been a good idea. The economy is still flat and we are still grinding towards Currency.

    Work Boats got built. They are sailing to wherever Mongolia might be.

    Confirm: Great Scientist in Orleans? It will be a while before he becomes useful.
     

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  6. Snowbird

    Snowbird Warlord

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    You can tech Currency in two turns if you up slider to 100%. That would give 9 gold per turn instead of collecting that pile of gold which gives you nothing.
     
  7. elmurcis

    elmurcis Emperor

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    Hmm.. Not an expert on overall picture but... If not wrong - if there is no 3rd player, can't know if and when AI starts to plot (even if know that AI is one of aggressive type (not by trait but by nature :D ), timing is important). And Genghis might not sit there doing nothing for too long (on average). Unless there is somebody else out there (espionage screen can give info if ever AI spends less than 4EP towards player or if there is no match between spending in graph and espionage screen (player usually has 4EP/turn so can easily tell if AI spends 6; 8 or more). So scouting matters here.
    Getting Currency (if can do that with that.... 179 gold in bank) should be done ASAP, but it might help also with safety here as it gives chance for AI to demand gold.
     
  8. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Fogbusting. Each unit can fog bust 2 squares N/E/S/W. At present you have a gap of 2 tiles between units when actually you can have a gap of 4 tiles between fog busters. So you can halve the number of fogbusters.
    The unit below Argos can head 2S1E. Enough to cover coast and near surrounding land. The rest you can work out. You are paying 3 unit supply cost here due to all these roaming units.

    You are struggling for happiness here. Silver will come soon. Calendar would help. I think monarchy would be better. Too late for mids? You would of needed to chop around Paris. . With maths that would need 7 chops. Albeit you could get 200-300 gold if you fail. You would need to cancel most worker actions now. and move all towards Paris.

    Would take 4-5 turns to settle on the stone but you could run research anyway to store hammers. Even then you would need to chop 6-7 forest and workers are simply not there. Hammers can be stored when you run research.

    The big issue here is you will be stuck at size 6 for happiness for a while. You have no real city which is shining out here.

    You really have to play the map at times and we got a bit distracted by the war. Albeit that finished in good times for a mids attempt. GK has HBR so his UU could be a real pain here. He will be walking through the jungle using 1mp on each tile.
     
  9. Harv

    Harv Emperor Supporter

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    Perfect timing! Thanks for pointing that out!

    I will keep this in mind as well as I can when doing binary research.

    I was actually worried that I would start running a deficit after running the treasury out of gold.

    It looks like I took this advice.

    to Turn 110

    Spoiler :

    upload_2020-4-2_21-49-1.png


    So we settled on the stone as suggested. That means GK go the corn further to the south.

    Turn 103 - Currency
    Turn 105 - Masonry
    Turn 110 - Iron Working

    For some reason, I thought I should be moving towards Optics. For that, I think we need Metal Casting, then Compass. So I decided to stop the game right here and ask what to research next.

    As for the Pyramids, we are leaving that in suspense. 432 is a lot of fail gold! It would last 5 or 6 turns!

    On the plus side, we have lots of iron!

    I am looking for GK's source of horses, but he does have HBR and we would do well to build spears.
     

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  10. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Wow 9 turns and mids ready. Nice. I think yes to mids. Scientists would get 6 beakers a turn. Happiness +3 in biggest 5 cities. If you wanted to risk it you could build it elsewhere for a few turns? Overall you need happiness now.

    Use cities around Orleans to help build cottages. Including plains river cottage to east.

    Optics would help you meet the other AI. Albeit you may need a plan for Mongols soon.

    Wealth in Lyon seems pointless. You want the light house.

    Granary first in Argos? Then prep as a unit whip/chop city after barracks.

    Consider barracks in cities that have most basic buildings. As sooner or later you will want to deal with Mongols. I think you have 2 decent cottage cities here. Rest can maybe be readied for units to take on Mongols.

    You definately want maths here. All these chops are losing 10H.

    Calendar would be good for more fail gold on wonders and happiness.
    Construction for warfare. Problem is his UU will cause havoc to your catapults.
    Otherwise Optics offers you crossbow on the way. AI might have a few techs to trade here.
    Lit/music - Not sure if music Great artist would already be gone here. Would give HE option and more wonders to build for fail gold.
    Your science isn't amazing for this date but will be higher with representation.

    Mongols have 2gpt for trade.
     
  11. Harv

    Harv Emperor Supporter

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    If I go for the Great Library right now, would Orleans be the city for it?

    Otherwise, I do math and calendar for the silk resource.

    All that means IW was a distraction. However it does mean we can clear that jungle.

    Mongols - Scouting will determine how soon we need spears.
     
  12. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Yes IW, if your not going Optics, was questionable. Albeit there is plenty of iron on this map. Pends how quickly you want to meet the AI. Getting great library when you have philosophical trait isn't a huge bonus. Fail gold is main benefit of lit route.

    If you go optics route least you would have machinery for xbows. That would kill off a lot of melee units that attack you. You could also trade for a lot of techs you are missing here. Pends how well the Ai are teching.

    Your main issue here has been happiness. You really want big cities that you can focus on. That and to move capital.

    That and managing the mongols. When you get shared borders he will be more likely to declare. I wouldn't over spam spears. He may not have horse hooked up yet. Just keep a mini stack of 3-4 units on your borders. You can keep a unit over his largest stack if you find one. If that starts to move you need to whip/chop units.
     
  13. Harv

    Harv Emperor Supporter

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    The Mongols march!
    to Turn 122

    I decided to go ahead and research Metal Casting. It was pointed out to me that the Great Library does not do as much good as Philosophical and that catches me by surprise. I suppose..... it means getting the next couple of GS easily and we are having little trouble there.

    I do mess up the turns following building the Pyramids a bit. I switch to Republic, then focus on growing and whipping, but never running scientists. So it took all 12 of these turns to get to Metal Casting.

    Spoiler :

    We did build the Pyramids in Paris!
    upload_2020-4-3_19-15-33.png

    We founded one more city in the race against the Mongols.
    upload_2020-4-3_19-16-4.png

    And here is their stack.
    upload_2020-4-3_19-16-20.png


    I panicked a little bit when I first saw it and got some Phalanxes set up. They must also be pretty close to hooking up their horses. Granted, they are a bit late for the Keshiks. However, we might still need a few spears.

    The question is, which city are they after? I don't think they are after Mycanae. They moved in the wrong direction. The same applies for Argos. They are also a little developed for an easy target. Pharsos is a possible easy target. So is Zapotec.

    I think they are going after Zapotec and right now I don't feel like grabbing that from under them. They have 6 melee units and an archer to defend whatever city they get. A few units behind a city wall might slow them down quite a bit. Taking a size 1 city like Pharsalos with 3 phalanx defenders and city walls might suck.

    Do we still need more cities?

    Happiness - The Forges can take us from 6 to 8 and give us a production boost.

    Research - Machinery would be nice. We get Crossbows as soon as I research Archery. After that, Compass and Optics.

    Should I have been farming around Athens instead of cottages?
     

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    Last edited: Apr 3, 2020
  14. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Hmmm,

    Mongols are after the barb city. Don't panic yet. They may return home after taking it? All his melee are quite strong. Many with shock. So you really want barracks before spamming unimproved units. He is not in war mode yet. I think you have enough units on way. His land is not great. He has zero happiness resources. He does have 3 GPT on offer. No harm giving away health resources. If he makes a demand for resources I would accept for now as that gives you 10 turns peace. If he wants a big tech you have enough units to see him off.

    Your fog busting phalank up north should now be on coast. Barb galleys could arrive in the fog.
    Your building too many mines. Roads on mines are not great worker use.Focus on getting Paris and Orleans cottages up and running. Cottages on non river grassland elsewhere offer less value.

    I think you need to mix growth with specialists. So Athens, Sparta and Lyons could all be running 2 scientists. Let Athens grow first. They are not likely to become cottage cities. River tiles offer more benefit for cottages. Getting Machinery sooner will be good.
    If Paris loses scientist it will grow this turn.

    Forges will be good here. You have gold and silver. Can be whipped for 3 pop? Even argos could 2 pop whip a forge with 60H. Cottage there is not great. I see this as a unit pump city. Xbows and catapults will play havoc to a melee army. I think over 6-7 turns most cities could chop forges if you head maths now. Maybe whip Lyon and Thebes with 60H.

    You can pre chop forest till you get maths. Maths for chops would of been good too. Fail gold from wonders would really help here. Maybe too late for hanging gardens but collolus and national wonders will help.

    You have 2 grassland river forest tiles near Orleans. Should be chopped into forge and cottaged. Get the river grassland cottages up first.

    Techwise. Machinery will stop you bulbing lib. Crossbows are good. Maths for chops.Construction gives you odeons for happiness. COL gives you caste to run scientist.

    If the AI are really backwards here Music may still be possible. As your borders reach Mongols borders he will move more towards war mode.

    One thought. Maths, calendar, compass and aesth and you could bulb machinery with a GS? 1096 beakers? Wasteful? Maybe not with your traits. This would speed up optics and get you maths chops.

    You may get a GE from Paris. So holding off on Machinery has some merits. Maths will really help get forges up quicker. Delay chops to time with maths. IW before maths was probably a mistake.

    1-2 chariots here is not bad. AI has a lot of axes.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2020
  15. Harv

    Harv Emperor Supporter

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    Another 10 turns, I grabbed Mathematics as suggested, then Compass. I popped a Great Scientist, so that means I have to grind through Machinery. It will take a while.

    Added: It took all the way to Turn 140 to get to Optics. The Mongols have almost finally reached our border, so I guess a war is coming. Time will tell if we can bail ourselves out with the help of caravels.

    The Mongols should be coming with Keshiks, swordsmen, and catapults.
     

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    Last edited: Apr 4, 2020
  16. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    That is what the axe was waiting for. To settle the plains hill. Which is why Argos should of been 1W. Or you should of settled that hill too. He is now at annoyed and a DOW must follow. At present not in war mode. He could well settle below Athens too.

    You have built a lot of spears here which will only be useful if he spams his UU. Against his shock axes they are easy fodder.

    I agree with archery. You also need construction for catapults. Hopefully 4-5 turns to do this. You can start building xbows once you have archery. You will want quite a few catapults. 7-8? With 7-8 xbow too as your melee units are weak against shock axes/swords.

    A few chariots would also be wise for his plains hill city defended by axes.

    Why did you farm the 2 plains rivers near Orleans? You wanted cottages! Same for all those juicy grassland rivers. 1-2 farms was fine but they won't bring you a commerce capital.

    Same issue in Paris. Running farmed plains rivers is not good. That is amost unimproved tile. That 1 commerce adds little. Better to run mines or cottages.

    What happened to your 2nd great person? I assume you bulbed something?

    Not got enough energy to check in more detail.
     
  17. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    I almost wonder if mace would be better for some of these low cultural cities.
     
  18. Harv

    Harv Emperor Supporter

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    Second scientist bulbed Optics.
     
  19. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Not a great move.

    Should of saved him for something else. This just feels too late for a rush. By time you are ready he may have longbow.

    Not happy that you have farmed your 2 commerce cities.

    I think I would of paused for advice before playing on 8 more turns as you have lost some focus. Your planning for optics but at same time sort of planning war. You can't do both.
     
  20. Harv

    Harv Emperor Supporter

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    Send us more Mongols!
    to Turn 148

    Spoiler :

    I went Code of Laws next.
    upload_2020-4-4_19-42-33.png

    I needed courthouses and this opens up a philosophy bulb. Most likely letting great scientists decide what to research is a bad idea.

    Sure enough, GK did declare war.
    upload_2020-4-4_19-44-19.png

    It was coming. He was marching with that stack of 7, 4 swords, 1 keshik, 1 axe, and 1 archer. They are all dead now. It cost two phalanxes, and we have a swordsman with a woodsman promotion. We got a great general in Athens, which I used to promote a warrior to medic 3. I believe that was the original advice I got from an earlier game. Walls were hastily whipped in Pharsalos, but not needed, because he decided to attack a stack in the jungle.

    He also had a swordsman and archer in the north marching on Lyons, which hastily whipped a crossbow, which whipped them. Our scouting axe got kicked to the northern border by a worker, which got stolen.

    Body count:
    Them: 5 swords, 2 archers, 1 axe, 1 keshik, 1 worker
    Us: 2 phalanxes
    We are probably going to lose the phalanx that killed the archer in the south. He will probably lose that axe as the exchanges continue. Otherwise, it is a rough start for him.

    We founded another city.
    upload_2020-4-4_19-53-24.png

    It is a pretty safe and quiet location.

    We had to research mysticism and meditation to get the philosophy bulb.
    upload_2020-4-4_19-54-37.png

    We also met the Ottomans.
    upload_2020-4-4_19-55-3.png



    On the idea of only halfway preparing for war with GK - I guess...... I had a lot of unit expense slowing down my research and really wasn't playing the diplomatic part.

    The war - There is a very interesting choke point in GK territory. He has three cities past that point. One city is so deep in our culture zone, on a hill, I might not even bother to take it. Another one is a pretty good prize for us. The third in the southeast does not have any size or food.

    Tech trade - Should I work with the Ottomans? Or should I see who else I meet? They appear to be on the same level as GK in terms of score, so probably not a leader. I should check wonders to see what he has.

    I am going to pause here, because this is an interesting point.
     

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