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Emperor Perikles of Greece

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Harv, Mar 24, 2020.

  1. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Why are you not building units? Chariots to help take hill city? Crossbowman too. Mace would of been good against his UU/catapults and to attack cities..

    He will be spamming his UU now. If he has catapults he will form a stack with both. .Your Catapults wil l suffer with his UU flanking. He has 2 lots of horse so harder to pillage.

    Not a big fan of windmills this early. Your killing a 1f3h tiles for a 2f1H1c tile. Each new citizen consumes 2f.

    Sparta was a very nice production city but you are now gradaully making it average. With civil service you can farm that cottage for extra food.
     
  2. Harv

    Harv Emperor Supporter

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    Meeting the Old World
    to Turn 154

    Admittedly, it is hard to focus and play more than a few turns at a time.

    I decided to deal with the Ottomans first.

    Spoiler :

    upload_2020-4-5_11-28-33.png

    upload_2020-4-5_11-28-46.png



    I went with the idea that Currency was not unique in the Old World, and that Mehmed was not the leader on the continent. So he is my first friend. A couple of turns later, after meeting a couple of others, I decided that Metal Casting was not unique, either and traded that away to the Ottomans.

    From the picture, I can also see that they are at the bottom of the list, so maybe we are helping them catch up.

    The Incas have a small empire, but they are teching. They have Engineering. I saw the pikes while driving by.

    Finally, we met the Babylonians, who went down the Arts path and won the race to Music.

    Nobody would trade Construction to us, and we had to research it ourselves.

    What is next? Either Astronomy or Engineering. We will get a scientist soon, and can bulb towards Astronomy. I can check how far away from a great person Paris is, but it might be a situation where we don't care if we get a scientist or engineer.
     

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  3. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    It's gonna be one of those wars where you spend a lot of hammers for little reward. His cities are small. You would need some combat success to get peace. Without catapults some of the high culture cities may be an issue. Not sure if this is worth the effort. Maybe take hill and corn city and try for peace.

    Right now your science is struggling. To get astronomy you will need most cities running wealth. You can part bulb astronomy with a GS. At some point also you will want a golden age. Which could of really used a GS.

    Astronomy will offer foreign trade routes. Also allow you to trade resources for gold. Not sure how engineering will help here. Your not ready for workshops.

    Your not running a high value commerce resource. Mycenae. Growth vs commerce.

    What is your strategy to win here?
     
  4. Harv

    Harv Emperor Supporter

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    It's a slog, all right, just five more turns to 169.

    Spoiler :

    So far, the odds favor our crossbows and we had three of them set up and the defending archers were not yet fully fortified, so decided to go for it.
    upload_2020-4-5_21-46-35.png

    We won the city with one phalanx lost. That went better than I thought it would. There was a good chance of losing one crossbow to an archer, meaning we would have to defeat two axes with phalanxes and get slaughtered. I suppose it would have been a thorn in the side had we ignored it, and winning the city gave us a route to push more troops through.

    Meanwhile on the eastern front, I decided to sacrifice a spear and GK took the bait. We countered and captured Zapotec.
    upload_2020-4-5_21-50-22.png

    There were also three workers to capture, so I moved a phalanx to cut off their escape. It got destroyed by an incoming keshik, but we were able to counter, then capture three workers. The last turn was quiet on this front.

    The Mongols showed up with another stack.
    upload_2020-4-5_21-53-53.png

    I decided to split my force into three, because I did not know which way the keshiks were going to go, and behind our lines is not a good thing. They decided to take out the middle stack, 1 spear and 2 phalanxes. The counter was trivial. They invested one axe from the city to wipe out another phalanx. So I think we got the better part of that exchange and a view of the city.

    Check out Zapotec! The granary and lighthouse are intact - and it has an academy!
    upload_2020-4-5_21-58-55.png

    The Zapotec Academy is unlikely to ever amount to anything and it's very strange that it was there. Did the barbarians pop a great scientist? Also, so many hammers went into this city and I never saw it!

    This was not a great deal with the Portuguese, but it was slightly better than what the Ottomans were offering.
    upload_2020-4-5_22-0-43.png

    ...and that made everybody on the other continent mad at us. The Portuguese are the biggest empire on that continent and apparently everybody hates them.

    We founded another city, effectively destroying Sparta.
    upload_2020-4-5_22-2-7.png

    For some reason, I was interested in the whales.

    Finally, we are approaching Otrar and we see another Mongol stack.
    upload_2020-4-5_22-3-46.png



    I think the body count so far is.......
    We lost 8 phalanxes and 2 spears.
    They lost 6 swords, 6 axes, 4 archers, 4 keshiks, 3 chariots, and 1 catapult.
    We captured two cities and four workers.

    I stopped here, because I have not decided what to do next. I can make two stacks again and wait an extra turn for the catapult to show up. Otherwise it will be vulnerable. We might be descending upon Otrar with some force.

    The eastern front, Zapotec and Pharsalos are a different story. There are four defenders between the two cities, so if he sends a stack that direction, they might be in trouble. I had that thought when the keshik showed up for a counterattack. We have quite a few workers. I might chop up a wall in Zapotec.

    Science? It looks like that has ground to a complete halt. The economy might get worse as we build more troops and capture more cities.

    Peace? It looks like GK might accept peace. However, we might have an advantage at Otrar and that would secure quite a bit of the central part of the continent. The city further south should secure it entirely.
     

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  5. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    I think your spending too many resources on this war now. You have limited number of catapults. Chances are he will have another mini stack again. If you can take the corn city great. Overall all cities should be on wealth as you need astronomy. The 50+ hammer overflow should go on fail gold.

    You can currently get 1752 beakers towards astonomy. This is why you don't use them on low value tech as the formula for a GS is 1500 + 3x pop. So any tech below 1500 beakers is losing you 500+beakers. Albeit if you can burn one early on for maths there is greater value if it gets you to construction or adds value to chops.

    Athens probably should of been using iron if you are going for fail gold. It's worth 5 hammers. 5x2=10.

    Same for Sparta. Grab back the corn and run 2x4h mines. 22H goes up to 36H into the wonder. That makes a big difference.
     
  6. Harv

    Harv Emperor Supporter

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    Now I know the formula for GS! I t would have taken me a very long time to figure it out!

    1. Built academy in Orleans, so 3 beakers per scientist turn, plus some whenever I manage to run science, so 600 scientist turns to repay. Even settling might have worked out better.

    2. Bulb philosophy. You already said that was a weak move. I think it’s still open for trade bait. That also means I can slow down the building of AW in Sparta. Let HC win that race. Same with CoL and CI.

    3. Bulb Optics. It also loses bulbs, but gains optics. We were able to meet new enemies on the other continent. How long does it take them to forgive my misguided trade with the Portuguese?

    4. Now that I know the formula, I will have to choose a moment of max population. A golden age would boost production for a short while, but I think there is a better time for that later.

    For engineers, I might figure out the formula, probably 1000 instead of 1500.

    There is something very interesting I noticed about this war. I don’t have maces, so suddenly crossbows and longbows are relevant! There is a short window and it appears I have stumbled into it!

    Crossbow is 6 strength and has advantage over melee. Defender in city will be archer with 3 strength. It is almost equal to the keshik, except the keshik starts with a lot more experience. Something similar applies to longbows, but they cost a little less and have no such advantage over melee.

    So when I pick up this game again, I will try adding some longbows into the mix!
     
  7. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Main issue with academy here is you were slow to a commerce city. Even now Orleans is running a few farms. At present you are 100% tax most of the time. So Academy adds little.unless you run specialists. If you run wealth it increases use of academy. Same for foreign trade routes and trading resources for gold. Academies can be great. Capital offers 8 free commerce. So moving capital here might of helped.

    Yes philosophy trade bait. I guess there is no rush to liberalism. AI seem pretty slow this game. You could of traded compass to most?

    I think if you are getting 1700-1800 towards tech your doing fine. Hence why it helps with astronomy. Yes Engineers, Merchants, artists and GP are 1000k. The multiples of population vary. Getting a GM with a trade mission at 900 or 1100 gold can bring quite a lot more science.

    Longbows are not great attacker. You want catapults but these needs help against Keshik. Mace were the answer here. Civil service adds 50% commerce to your capital too. Problem was your capital had no rivers. Albeit it had a gold resource.

    Stacks of xbow and phalanx will only do so much damage. If the AI builds walls your then going to struggle. As soon as he has longbow the war will quickly grind to a halt.
     
  8. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    I would probably run 4 specialists in Paris. 7 turns for a great person. With a chance for GE if you want engineering. Albeit golden age more needed?
     
  9. Harv

    Harv Emperor Supporter

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    Mongolia Must be Destroyed!
    to Turn 171

    You were right. It is a slog. Lots of hammers for a little bit of gain while the other continent powers ahead. Maybe I should have played Romans. In the days of the Republic, they did not know when to quit in a war. My mentality has been similar. For the Romans in those days, the big enemy, among many, was Carthage. Since we are also running a Republic, I can close off every speech with:

    Mongolia must be destroyed!

    Spoiler :

    First, Otrar
    upload_2020-4-6_21-3-57.png

    ...and that's when my forward scout phalanx spied what was coming next.....
    upload_2020-4-6_21-5-8.png

    Astonishingly, we had survivors!
    upload_2020-4-6_21-6-29.png

    ....and that was enough to secure the city.....

    Meanwhile, another misguided deal with the Portuguese. We sold out the secrets of the Compass. Soon, they will come looking for us!
    upload_2020-4-6_21-7-55.png

    I am sure he will eventually broker that new technology. We get horse archers not quite on par with the Mongolian Keshiks.

    We sent our brave scout further south to find another pile of Mongols incoming!
    upload_2020-4-6_21-9-20.png

    Maybe it was better to wait for them, knowing they were coming. However, he did take out a catapult and a keshik before going down. The Woodman 1 promotion helped make them a bit more of a pain to take down. Taking out the stack, it might have been a better idea to let them attack the city. Looking at the picture, there was no culture advantage, so it did not matter. This is where longbows would have come in handy.

    Finally, we arrived at Tiflis.
    upload_2020-4-6_21-12-20.png

    I should have waited one more turn, but we had just enough firepower to take the city, and see the next horde of Mongols incoming.
    upload_2020-4-6_21-13-11.png



    So I think we advanced too quickly and that is costing us units that are getting killed instead of healed.

    We get Astronomy in a turn, and that will make a huge difference. It might have been a better idea to play defensively and advance more slowly, with healthy units. It might also have been a better idea to grab peace with them and use a ten turn ceasefire to grab Astronomy, which we will finally have next turn.

    However,

    Mongolia must be destroyed!
     

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  10. Harv

    Harv Emperor Supporter

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    I checked out the body count over these 12 turns:

    We lost another:
    3 Phalanxes, 1 Spear, 7 Crossbows, and 2 Catapults.

    They lost another:
    4 Archers, 1 Axe, 6 Chariots, 5 Swords, 10 Keshiks, and 6 Catapults.

    We captured two more cities.

    The total body count so far is:
    We lost 11 Phalanxes, 3 Spears, 7 Crossbows, and 2 Catapults.
    They lost 8 Archers, 7 Axes, 11 Swords, 14 Keshiks, and 7 Catapults.
    We captured a total of four cities and four workers.

    I count a kill ratio of a little under 2 to 1. (I also count 1010 hammers.) I don't know if that is good or bad, but we probably could have done much better. The low count of spears means I did not build enough of them They would make counterattacking our stacks more painful. Longbows might also help in cities. Slowing down might have helped as well. Force their stacks to make the move.

    I think they are going to focus all of their energy on Tiflis, which we just captured. So move units in to defend. Where I stopped, I had another stack of units. Wherever they go, they are going to die. It looks like we can move them into Tiflis and hold it for another turn.

    Looking upstream, I might be running low on reinforcements, a consequence of running wealth to get astronomy more quickly.

    What to research next? Civil Service for the Maces? I am leaning towards Engineering. The extra road movement means we can move in reinforcements more quickly. We would also get Pikes. They are yet another 6 strength unit and they would make life terrible for the Keshiks.

    We also reached the cultural boundaries of Mongolia. The cities we took were all outposts. Now when we take cities, they will be surrounded with Mongolian culture. Speaking of which,

    Mongolia must be destroyed!
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2020
  11. Fish Man

    Fish Man Emperor

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    You're spending far too many resources on this war. Every few turns a ministack of yours gets destroyed because you're careless. You walk into cities right in view of 6 catapults which can completely wipe your injured attackers. You have little siege and built not enough spears to counter their mounted. All of this could have been remedied had you
    1. made half your army catapults,
    2. built an extra 3-4 spears,
    3. built a spy or two to make sure you're not walking into death traps, and
    4. NOT split your stack until you were certain Genghis was on his last legs; i.e. holed up in 4 or fewer remaining cities with just barebones garrisons and no more units left for attack (the AI calculates stack combat as an aggregate strength so a bunch of units together, they are less likely to strike).
     
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  12. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    This war is killing your game. Your just spamming units hoping the war will go well. Meanwhile Mongol's are building stacks of 5-7 units and ambushing your units when you take cities.

    Even with 4-5 more units in that captured city you will lose at least 2-3 units after the stack attacks. If you really wanted to take the Mongols down I would of used ceasefires so you can at least take a breather and form up stacks.

    This war was started by the AI. Wars without catapults can be really tough. 1-2 spears should of been in your stack. I suspect you lost most to Ai ambush.

    Building units at other end of continent that are 10-12+ turns from front line is crazy. Without engineering it takes too long.

    You really wanted to take a ceasefire early on or take a tech and gold for peace. Then use Mace, trebs and pikes. Pikes would kill off his Keshiks. Albeit you really needed astronomy for your economy.

    You did not take my GE idea for Paris.

    You are not trading resources for gold. AI has 20 gold per turn for trade.

    I really doubt your current units will get much further. He will keep spamming Keshilks each few turns.

    Be careful the AI don't beat you to liberalism.
     
  13. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    Spoiler :
    This requires just 2 tech gifts (1 per AI, CoL or so) & giving HC your map.
    Then you can open borders with everybody :)

    Gumbo: You are not trading resources for gold. AI has 20 gold per turn for trade.
    My: Difficult without Astro ;)
     

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  14. Harv

    Harv Emperor Supporter

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    Looking over this war, first round, 350 hammers worth of phalanx and spears for 820 in Mongol units, 4 workers and 2 cities. I thought that worked out nicely.

    The second round got two more cities for another 660 hammers worth of our units in exchange for 1335 hammers worth of their units. I don’t remember how many units were lost taking the first city, but the last city was very expensive, indeed. The main issues I had was most of these hammers were from crossbows instead of throwaway units.

    When I took the next city and spied the stack, as seem in a picture, I should have grabbed a ceasefire in exchange for HBR. That would have saved some units.

    I thought with the third city, the central part of the continent was still in dispute. With the fourth city, it is ours to settle and further crush the economy.

    Seeing the incoming stack of boss-level keshiks and seeing the results of the last round, maybe a ceasefire would be a good idea. We could wall-up that last city and we would have a great base to set up the next attack. We can also start building galleons.

    More spears would have helped a lot.

    Splitting stacks - My intention was to bait GK into an attack. What I should have done was have a main stack for the catapults and a bait stack. Having seen Gummy’s explanation of the AI stack strength calculation, it makes sense that GK baits very easily.

    Engineer in Paris - Well, the second best time to plant a tree is right now. That would imply we research CS now and see if we get an engineer.

    Diplomacy - I'm on my phone and can’t see the picture well. Portugal is good, but a one tech gift, like compass or code of laws will be good enough for open borders? You also mentioned map to Inca. That will get them over our misguided trades with Portugal.

    Astronomy - We will have that next turn. The formula I was given meant I could save the bulb for when we were just about to finish research.

    So it looks like peace with Mongolia for now. However,

    Mongolia must be destroyed!
     
  15. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Hadn't noticed you had not got astronomy.

    As I said before these captured cities are not great. Will take a lot of work to improve.
     
  16. Harv

    Harv Emperor Supporter

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    I will have Astronomy next turn.

    AI is funny. Human opponent is overextended and set up to lose five units, offers peace treats, extorting gold. We’ll take it, give them time to fortify the last city they took with 25 units and a castle.

    On the diplomatic front on the other continent, I remember visiting my sister and her dogs kept begging for whatever I was eating. I finally indulged one of them and suddenly the other ones heard and showed up for theirs.

    That must be my problem.

    Edit:
    Mongolia must be destroyed!
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2020
  17. Harv

    Harv Emperor Supporter

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    Give Peace a Chance
    to Turn 175

    Spoiler :

    And they call us barbarians??!?
    upload_2020-4-7_19-11-29.png

    We reached the part of Mongolia where further progress will be a slog and right now and we ran out of reinforcements. With this war, we have secured the central part of the continent.

    We also did some more misguided deals.
    upload_2020-4-7_19-14-9.png

    Portugal needed some gold. They were probably start to research Code of Laws. The gold came from Mongolia, anyway.

    This is another bad trade.
    upload_2020-4-7_19-16-1.png

    .... but it gets us Civil Service, and gives them a way to beat us to producing the Angkor Wat.

    Finally, Portugal wanted a freebie from us.
    upload_2020-4-7_19-16-51.png

    ...and the very next turn, the buggers went Mercantalism on us, wrecking our economy again.



    We did pop a Great Engineer and I used him for 1216 beakers towards engineering and we got it on the next turn.

    So I stopped here, because I think Guilds is next on the list of things to research. That gets us Knights and completes our set of Medieval war units.

    National Epic - I do not know where to put it. I should set up a city with a huge food surplus.
    Ephesus? That would be the same turn Heliopolis completes the Moai Statues!
    Heroic Epic - I want to save that for a production city in Mongolia
    Forbidden Palace - I will put that somewhere in Mongolia.
    Capital - I went through my list of cities and still think Athens is good.
    Bureaucracy - When is a good time to adopt it?

    Growing cities versus running specialists - I am still struggling with this issue.

    Units to build - some mix of Pikes, Trebs, Maces, and Knights. The maces have an advantage with melee units and can get a city raider promotion.
    Promote old units or just throw them away and build new ones? (Mostly Spears)

    It looks like Mongolia is making a beeline towards Feudalism. It will be safe to assume they will have it at some point in the next war.

    Mongolia must be destroyed!
     

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    Last edited: Apr 7, 2020
  18. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    You have astronomy now and your still not trading resources for gold? Do you not like doing this?

    I dislike paying 80 gold and a tech for an old tech everyone has.

    Athens has the biggest food surplus. If you run 6 specialists there the next great person is in 5 turns. Shrinking in 7 turns is not an issue if you get a GP sooner. You can then consider this for a golden age.
    2f1c tile vs 1f5H? No brainer for me. Assuming you don't like specialist idea.
    Your not running silk tile in Mycenae? Why not? 2f1h1c vs 1f 1h5c? For loss of 1 food you gain 4 commerce.

    Ideally swap during a golden age civic wise. Need a great person for this. Hence Athens plan.

    If you switch to TAO during golden age once you have open borders this would speed up palace build.

    Athens vs Orleans as capital? Orleans would have 60 commerce if it ran all it's cottages. 68 once palace moved. Athens is better as a GP farm. Orleans would benefit more with academy. Plus gets the 8 free commerce when the capital moves. Quite an easy decision?

    If your planning to restart this war you should use galleons to speed up troop movement. Mongols will have a big stack in that border city now. You need 3-4 pike. Plus trebs/catapults. You needs many of these cities on wealth whipping these units.Including pharsalos, Thebes and Argos.

    You have a galleons that can get troops to front line faster. If you chained the galleons they could get to front line in 1-2 turns.

    You have 6 turns till you can restart this war and at present you appear to be waiting. Maybe you only just got engineering. You could of still been whipping catapults. The minute you declare Mongols will send there stack at your border city. So far you have no great unit to attack their stack.

    Guilds and knights are nice with archer defenders. Just don't lose the liberalism race to Incas. You just traded a lot of key techs away to them. I guess CS will be useful.
     
  19. Harv

    Harv Emperor Supporter

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    Resources for gold - Usually when I got to this point in the game, the game is already decided - or I just got frustrated with micromanagement and started something else, so I don’t have a playbook for what to do once I get astronomy. Short answer- I did not think of it. I also did not think of the diplomacy.

    Great person in 5 turns and doesn’t matter what I get and start a golden age - This seems a good idea. I will do this.

    Food versus iron - At the time, I was trying to grow Athens as fast as possible.

    I also just realized that the efficiency of whipping Athens declines very fast around size 10. I will rethink my whipping strategy.

    There is a granary I chopped, but forgot to build. The number of cities is exceeding my capacity to micro.

    Capital? Okay, I can move to Orleans.

    Liberalism race? The prize might end up being Nationalism.

    The war? The plan we have so far is:
    5 turns - great person
    8 turns - golden age

    Liberalism - Nationalism, build Taj for another golden age. Don’t let HC win. I might to well to spy how well he is teching.

    So the war looks like it will be delayed a good while. We might have rifles then.
     
  20. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Whipping larger cities has a lot less value. Whipping cities size 6 is great as they regrow,

    Your empire is not that big. My current game I have 40 or so cities. Not expecting turn by turn micro but fix the obvious things.

    I think knights are a good answer here. They will work well against his stacks. Add in 3-4* trebs and war could start again. Golden age wise it's more about changing civics and max research. Albeit war and golden ages don't mix as you want caste for great people.

    Question is how many units more would you need to make a dent on mongols? Maybe waiting for cuirs would be better. In which case ditch guilds and head for edu/lib.

    You are a bit late for NE/HE. More down to war route and tech path here.

    You need to have a strategy and roll with it. Incas may still be slow to edu and Lib. You can certainly get paper in 1 turn.

    If you want to win on higher levels you need to start having more focus. Immortal and especially deity are more punishing for mistakes.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2020

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