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Emperor Perikles of Greece

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Harv, Mar 24, 2020.

  1. Harv

    Harv Emperor Supporter

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    304 is quite a lot of trebs!
    :rotfl:

    Since you are recommending golden age to fix the civics and get great scientists, the war will wait for later units.
     
  2. Harv

    Harv Emperor Supporter

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    Shorter turn sets also helps with focus, I think. An overnight wait for feedback often results in some rethinking and change of idea.

    I have no idea how that guy is able to run his game averaging 20 seconds per turn!

    Next game will likely be emperor again, to give myself a comparison and get used to it. I think I have two other emperor games from many years ago.

    One was a Churchill game where I think I ground out some kind of low scoring win. The other, I forget who I played, but got ground to a halt by Isabella who had a position similar to GK in this game, but an insane amount of land past a choke point.
     
  3. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    I would focus on your own game and not some random poster on here.

    Edited to 3-4 trebs.

    Your struggling on emperor as your not using basic game functions. You have picked up quite a few bad habits. Especially on city micro and what tiles to run. That and worker use.

    Actually wiping out French by 1000bc was not bad at all. It's where you take the game after that. Looking at map and thinking what are the strengths here. Fail gold being a major one on this map. Plus your traits mixing in with pyramids.

    Pretty sure if you replayed this from 1000bc you would of done many things differently. Just getting pikes sooner or trying to get a GE for machinery might of speeded up your wars here. Pretty sure you could of got 3-4 techs from French for peace. It's the small gains that really make a difference.

    You might of also been able to use spies to steal 1-2 techs here. I also wonder if a catapult/phalanx approach might of captured a few wonders from French. So many different ways to play this game.

    You seem to be having fun. That is the most important thing?
     
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  4. Harv

    Harv Emperor Supporter

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    That is one of the important things- and why it is fun. I like the analysis part. I think there are many angles and solutions.

    Your 1000BC comment implies that I am learning things and that is also a good sign.
     
  5. Harv

    Harv Emperor Supporter

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    Another Great Scientist
    to Turn 180

    All right, I ran five more turns and got the great scientist.

    Spoiler :

    This city might kill Paris and grabs the silver.
    upload_2020-4-8_18-32-52.png

    This city is part of the prize for winning against Mongolia.
    upload_2020-4-8_18-33-17.png



    Here, I believe we start the golden age, switch to bureaucracy and caste system and run scientists.

    It looks like we have a foot race against the Incans and they are sure teching fast! They only have five cities. A golden age will help.

    We also found the Mongol stack piling in that border city!
     

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  6. Harv

    Harv Emperor Supporter

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    Do Races get any Closer than This?
    to Turn 186

    I went ahead and started the Golden Age and switched to Bureaucracy and Caste System. I also went ahead with building the National Epic in Athens and started the palace in Orleans. The Incas were racing their way to Education and we managed to catch them on the same turn.

    Spoiler :

    Game on!
    upload_2020-4-8_20-59-6.png

    Then I looked at the turn counter and we had only 4 turns of golden age remaining and I wanted to finish this before the golden age was over, for at least two reasons.

    I pushed some hammers into research to get the project finished before our golden age ends.

    upload_2020-4-8_20-58-39.png





    So it doesn't get any closer than that, in my opinion. The Incas were still able to accelerate their research to get the project done in three more turns. We are planning to get there next turn, winning the race by two turns.


    We will also finish the project just before the end of the golden age. I think we should take Nationalism as our prize. That gets us a jump start on the Taj Mahal and another free golden age. We also have the option of going with Nationalism instead of Bureaucracy.

    Did I mention that Hammurabi saved us by building the Angkor Wat and giving us all that fail gold?

    Here is the GK stack.

    Spoiler :

    upload_2020-4-8_21-1-21.png



    So the next objective is to take out that thorn in the side.

    I think we should grab Nationalism and switch to Police State / Nationalism / Slavery / Theocracy / Taoism
    Police State or Republic? It depends on how long this war is going to be. We will have about 6 turns before GK gets Feudalism.
    We also have a whole bunch of room on happy cap. However a big production bonus might be nice!
    Nationalism or Bureaucracy? Somebody was telling me how wonderful conscription was! We certainly have enough cities!
    Slavery or Caste System? I think we still need Slavery.
    Theocracy or Nothing? The experience might come in handy. However....
    Taoism? Everybody will hate us. Is that okay? I will check how much we are getting from free trade.

    EDIT: Oops, I don't have theocracy.
    Free Religion?

    Mongolia must be destroyed!
     

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    Last edited: Apr 8, 2020
  7. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    T180. If you had used engineer and 4h mine NE was 3 turns.
    Looks like you whipped many of your cities before the golden age? Not great start. Wars and golden ages do not mix.
    Tiflis was not running the fish! Perhaps it had no border pop?

    The main boost of golden age was to get you to lib first. Nationalism for 1200ad is not great but it is a 3k tech. As you already had 5-6 great people it was going to be hard to get many during this golden age. Hopefully cities like Athens will be much closer.

    Are mongols building a navy? Those pults/keshik as a stack will be annoying. Knights would help here. Mace will be okay I guess. I think Cuirs are the better option here. That stack of yours would of been costly under pacifism.

    You need to grow your capital and start working all these cottages. Not sure about all these new cities. Not really looked in detail but Paris could of used the cow for hammers and growth.

    You have no city above size 10 at 1200ad?

    Running late no thought on civics. Not sure you should switch out of rep. Do you try a rush to Mongol capital before longbows? Hmmm. Tough call.
     
  8. Harv

    Harv Emperor Supporter

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    The city with the fish just border popped. There was lots of micro at T180.

    I woke up and had a second thought. (I also peeked ahead one turn and the Incas dump Liberalism for Guilds.) The next race is Economics for the free merchant.

    The Incas appear to tech at the same rate we do with five cities. The spying advantage helped us as well.

    Granted, they split all the wonders with Babylon.

    Added: I count 14 units in that stack, plus 2 or 3 galleys. What is he going to attack with that?

    Next thought:
    C3 Keshik versus C1 Spear: 33.1%
    C3 Keshik versus C1 Pike: 4.3%
    ....if I got the rounding versus truncation right. Otherwise, It’s 7.9%.

    Either way, it’s a big improvement in survival rate. It would cost 665gp to upgrade the 7 spears in that stack. That might cost the race to Economics.

    Also, the spears will usually not protect maces.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2020
  9. Harv

    Harv Emperor Supporter

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    It’s also funny that with roads, my land units move three per turn and galleys only move two. So my Greek units can run 26 tiles to reinforce whatever city the Mongol fleet was trying to attack.
     
  10. Harv

    Harv Emperor Supporter

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    My mentality on some things, so that they are written out and I can consider in more detail:

    Coast 2f2c and Iron 1f5h
    ...is building 1f2c for 5h,
    ...but if it saves one turn of growth, then we get 2f4c from an extra tile.

    Mine and windmill
    One farm plus one mine are 0f3h.
    Two windmills are 0f2h2c.
    We traded 1h for 2c.

    One flaw in this is there is likely a forge, but no market, so sometimes it is 2h for 2c. It might depend on how much I need that extra food.

    Wealth before granary
    The one hammer does nothing until we accumulate 30. Then it saves one population from the whip. However, it might get us a forge or courthouse at size 6 instead of 8. I will rethink this.

    Specialists
    It’s kind of like a brown mine, trading 4 hammers for 6 beakers. So republic helps when I finally get around to running them. I still struggle with growing cities and whipping and running specialists at the same time.

    Great people
    If I run a scientist instead of a brown mine, it is like putting 4 hammers towards a great person, assuming I build a great person in that city. The next one costs 600 points, or 100 turns, or 400 hammers. Athens will have a discount on that. Green tiles are like 6 hammers instead of 4.

    Added:
    600 hammers for green tile x 100, assuming I gave up a green tile for the scientist, assuming the next great person comes from Athens.
    600 beakers, the library bonus is neglected, because we probably have a forge. 900 beakers in Orleans, because we have academy.
    1800 beakers for the bulb.

    So 600 hammers to get 2400 or 2700 beakers. There is quite a bit of stuff I should rethink.

    Tiles:
    Green: 2.25 (1 food or 1.5 hammers)
    Coast: 2.00
    Brown: 1.50 (1 hammer)

    All this theorizing and data gathering. Sometimes people just have to tell me to execute!

    Added: Another flaw is city sizes. They are limited. I will give this some more thought. See below. I think the next round will be just getting to Guilds.

    Next round will be researching Guilds, then Banking. See where the Incas are racing next. Great Merchant might be a good prize.

    How much is a great merchant worth?
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2020
  11. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    If you have an AI nearby you could be looking at at least 900 gold for a GM. More if they have certain buildings and Temple of Artemis. So I do like them a lot. GS could grab 1700 beakers. Much easier to get.

    With mids a scientist gives at least 6bpt. More in academy cities. Of course during a golden age the numbers change. Then your comparing hammers to beakers.Without rep hammers are sometimes worth more than scientists.4H hill with 1 commerce becomes 5h2c.Add in forge bonus and even better. Windmills are also much better during golden ages.

    I think you have to just make sensible decisions on granaries. You clearly want them asap for growth. I will often add a chop if whipping is slow. If your settling cities with no food then you will struggle to whip anything.

    You do want that second silver worked.

    Growth vs resources. If I can I like to be running the best tiles. 5-6 commerce from a tile can make a big difference. Same for hammers. Athens running the iron gives a huge boost to hammers. Adding to mine tiles is worth 18 fail gold a turn if you have double production. More with forge and religious civics.

    Those plains mines with forge actually give you 6H during a golden age after bonuses. This is why sparta wanted to keep the corn. If it runs all mine tiles it can be a great unit or wealth city. It could easily grow to size 10-12 and be running a lot of decent tiles.

    Maybe I have been under building windmills. A decent production city would have 1-2 decent food tiles anyway. With fail gold those 3 hammers are worth double. So yes in some way windmills are okay but mines can offer great value too.

    How do you actually plan to win this?
     
  12. Harv

    Harv Emperor Supporter

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    Well, if it’s rifles and cannons, then we still need guilds and banking. Economics is a distraction, but wins a great merchant and pay some of it back.

    Taj Mahal is a bunch of hammers for a golden age. These are both preventing HC from getting them.

    There are also so many wonders built by HC and Hammy.

    After that, Gunpowder, Replaceable Parts, Rifling to get the Rifles. Chemistry and Steel for the cannons. I’m not looking at a chart and don’t know if I missed anything and have no idea how much that costs or if Great Scientists help at all.

    Reasoning is we probably missed the window for maces and trebs by a couple of centuries.

    After Economics, I don’t see a race for the Incas to start. Right now, they are controlling our research.
     
  13. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    If your first to it then fair enough. TM wonder can be good and you have marble. In mean time you can be producing galleons. You might want nationalism to try and draft rifles. With so many cities drafting won't have a huge impact on happiness.

    If your not using galleon chains this will be a painfully slow end to this game. Focus on the tech leader first. Mongols will be backwards for a while.
     
  14. Harv

    Harv Emperor Supporter

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    Just ignore the Mongols and keep a few units in that border city?
     
  15. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    He is no threat till he gets Guilds. He will start plotting again at soem point and is definately building a fleet due to your stack. He can't beat xbow and pikes. If your power rating is high enough that should scare him off. With knights you could take him on but really Incans and others are a bigger threat. Mongols land is not good. At this stage your aim is to captitulate the AI. So for Incans let him waste his stack on your rifles. You saw how easily the AI capitulated on that last game. As long as you don't lose a unit. If your power rating and land is 2-2 times theirs then it usally works.
     
  16. Harv

    Harv Emperor Supporter

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    Do Races get any Closer than This?
    to Turn 196

    Good news, bad news.

    Spoiler :

    The Incas tech faster than we do and got to Guilds one turn sooner than we did. However, we were able to buy our way out of it.
    upload_2020-4-9_18-38-46.png

    I had to grab everything I knew to get my tech rate faster. It came down to building wealth and running scientists. Do races get any closer than this?

    upload_2020-4-9_18-39-42.png




    Question: If I finish and his research says one turn remaining, who gets the win? I was assuming one turn means on that turn he gets it and wins. Then it's my turn. This is very easy to determine experimentally.

    The bad news is the Babylonians won the race to Taj Mahal and got the golden age with their 11 cities. The do not seem to be running away with the tech lead like the Incas are.

    Hindsight says this was a very bad time to whip buildings. Growing would have been better.

    Now, I don't believe we are in as much of a hurry to get the rest of the tech we need. I think we work towards Chemistry and use a great scientist for Printing Press.

    Added: Hammy and I discovered Nationalism on the same turn. That means he built the TM in 9 turns. I will check for a Great Engineer.
    I could not find one. He built it in 9 turns?

    Experimental result. Opponent has one turn left. We still win the race. I believe this is because the (1) turn left means the opponent has not finished the technology. However, at the end of the turn, our science is added and counted and we get the technology. We are told this news at the beginning of the next turn. However, in the log, it shows up as completed in the last turn.
     

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    Last edited: Apr 9, 2020
  17. Harv

    Harv Emperor Supporter

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    The Quest for the Temple of Artemis
    to Turn 203

    In Greek Mythology, we would usually seek out the Oracle to find a way to win. Instead, we are seeking out the Temple of Artemis.

    Spoiler :

    At the time, I did not see that Portugal was in a golden age an teching at a scary rate.
    upload_2020-4-10_18-9-9.png

    For a moment, this made us the undisputed technology leader. Well, it was getting disputed.

    If the AI farms over a town, then it can be beaten, right?
    upload_2020-4-10_18-10-15.png

    We found the Temple of Artemis!
    upload_2020-4-10_18-10-33.png



    1700gp was our prize for winning the race to Economics. This makes it almost profitable. It is almost as good as a great scientist, maybe even a little better.

    I have still been whipping good cities to the ground. I decided to stop doing that to Orleans, since that is our capital. I might stop doing that in Athens, because it now has the National Epic. Maybe we see some results from the buildings. I thought if it is generating 20 in commerce or more, then it is worth a bank.

    When I finally get around to a great scientist, we are now looking at the Scientific Method.

    Mercantalism is in style.

    HC vassaled to Babylon. These are the two civs with all the wonders.

    Portugal should be taking over the continent. They should be crushing Ottoman in a war, but they don't appear to be. I should move the explorer to investigate.

    Gunpowder is out. Portugal also researched chemistry. They just finished a golden age. Babylon's golden age still has another 5 turns to go.

    The plan of rifles and cannons might get delayed to something later.
     

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  18. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    I will have a look tomorrow.
     
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  19. Harv

    Harv Emperor Supporter

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    The Mongols Strike Back!
    to Turn 210

    Spoiler :

    There are some fish there, so might as well. It also saves a caravel from fog busting.
    upload_2020-4-10_20-6-37.png

    I also grabbed this spot, though kind of pointless. Maybe it develops some trade later.
    upload_2020-4-10_20-7-19.png

    Genghis Khan went on the war path again, sending a couple of keshiks in. Then he decided that a siege with a single catapult was a better idea.
    upload_2020-4-10_20-8-11.png

    Here lies a stack of brave Mongolian warriors.
    upload_2020-4-10_20-8-50.png

    We pressed to Old Sarai.
    upload_2020-4-10_20-9-39.png

    The defenders were interesting, but outnumbered. We decided not to wait to the next turn and just take the city.
    upload_2020-4-10_20-11-20.png

    Meanwhile on the other continent, the Portuguese captured Instanbul and the Ottomans capitulated.
    upload_2020-4-10_20-13-10.png




    So changes in plans.

    On the other continent, we have two blocks. One has all the wonders. The other has all the power. They seem to be teching much faster than we are. I have not checked that closely.

    On our continent, the Mongols have finally decided to attack. That was inevitable. So far, we captured New Sarai. I think it's a nice city. It has two food sources. Without those hills, it is only good for trade. It also opens up a bunch of tiles for us.

    It also changes where the Mongols will focus their power. It is more likely they will try to retake New Sarai and die on that hill. The previous border city cannot be reached in a single turn and certainly not with siege equipment. This city is on a hill, which will make defending easier.

    What happens if we build city walls, then research rifling? Will we still have the walls?

    We are about 7 or 8 turns away from Rifling Do we wait for it, or keep pressing? I have not decided yet.

    I think invading the other continent with cannons and rifles is off. They will have matching tech very quickly.

    Added: Body count - The Siege of Old Sarai
    We lost:
    2 Maces, 1 Knight, and 1 Crossbow
    They lost:
    10 Keshiks, 2 Chariots, 1 Axe, 1 Sword, 1 Longbow, 1 Catapult, and 1 Trireme

    We actually lost one mace to a chariot at 96.2%.

    Cost of taking Old Sarai: 290 Hammers
     

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  20. Harv

    Harv Emperor Supporter

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    Just One More Turn!
    to Turn 217

    We slogged it out with the Mongols over Old Sarai.

    Spoiler :

    upload_2020-4-10_22-27-26.png



    He had a couple of stacks going and we decided to retreat for at least two reasons. One was that the pikes were proving to be the heroes of this battle. The Keshiks avoid them and let them attack the catapults. We actually lost one at 89.9%. The other one got defeated defending Old Sarai, probably at very long odds. The other reason we retreated was because we got Rifling and new equipment was suddenly available.

    We also got a Great Scientist and a decision to make. We could try running a bunch of GP in Athens or Paris, maybe get a different GP and get a golden age, if we need one yet. It might be better to save that for later. Or we can save him for a Scientific Method bulb when we decide to research Scientific Method. Either way, we save the Great Scientist.

    Added body count.
    We lost another 2 pikes.
    Total losses 2 pikes, 2 maces, 1 crossbow, 1 knight
    They lost another 10 keshiks, 7 catapults, and 5 triremes
    Total losses 20 keshiks, 2 chariots, 8 catapults, 1 longbow, 1 axe, 1 sword, 6 triremes

    So far, Old Sarai has cost us 410 hammers.

    Great Person in Paris, about 14 to 18 turns.
     

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    Last edited: Apr 10, 2020

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