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Emperor Run with Charlemagne

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Harv, Sep 9, 2011.

  1. Harv

    Harv Emperor Supporter

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    Hi all! I am running through Protective Leaders and trying to improve my game playing. The last game I played was with Churchill on Standard Continents. It was a pretty ugly slogfest against Tokugawa to gain control of the smaller Continent and then work a Space Race victory at a relatively unimpressive date of 1919AD and a relatively unimpressive score of 64319.

    I decided Emperor is a good level for me to keep trying to improve at and I sure learned lots from the previous game. This time I am playing Charlemagne of the Holy Roman Empire. I would have chosen him as an Avatar for this game but since one of my most helpful mentors uses that Avatar already, I decided to use Charlie's closest relative instead. :)

    Charlemagne is of course Protective. It is a very unpopular trait to say the least. I believe this is because it does not offer any economic benefits. Walls are seldom built and I am not so sure about Castles, either. The military benefits of Protective do not seem to come in to play until at least Crossbows. It gets better with Gunpowder I guess because then you get Drill Promoted units to clean up after Siege that ignore Castles and Walls. I am experimenting with it so most of the past few games have been military heavy. (The Churchill Space Race was pretty much for variety.)

    Charlemagne is Imperialistic. Settlers are cheaper - more importanly a 2 point whip - and this should make early expansion easier. Great Generals are generated faster so this might synergize okay with Protective Warmongering.

    The Unique Unit is the Landsknecht - a Pikeman that gets +100% against Melee units. Maces will still have an edge over Landsknecht due to Promotion Bonuses. Crossbows will still be better against Maces than Landsknecht.

    The Unique Building is the Rathaus. This is a Courthouse that gives a 75% reduction in Maintenence Costs instead of 50%. Code of Laws is researched at a time when Empire Maintenence is wrecking the economy so this may be pretty huge. I suppose it becomes even better when Corporations come into play.

    The starting Technologies are Mysticism and Hunting. :yuck: Hunting does open a path to Animal Husbandry and Archery later but the only use I can think of for early Mysticism is a shot at Stonehenge. Early Religion is not really a good option.

    Here are the Settings:

    Spoiler :




    And the Start:

    Spoiler :




    If I settle 1SW I have 2 Wet Corn and a Clam for a huge food bonus. If I settle in place I have 1 Wet Corn and a Clam and another one for later. I am leaning towards 1SW and I can start the Worker and research Agriculture - Mining - Bronze Working and maybe Animal Husbandry. Fishing can wait for later and Bronze Working can at least get me Chopping + Imperialistic for Settlers. If I do not find Copper then I can research Animal Husbandry and look for Horses.

    It looks like I miss the River wherever I settle - but that really only comes into play in the late game.

    Initial Demographics: (I will sort this information later.)

    Spoiler :


     

    Attached Files:

  2. vranasm

    vranasm Deity

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    I would probably SIP. no reason to kill GH.

    I wouldn't delay much fishing since it looks like your only source of commerce for reasonable long time, but I can see why you would go agri->mining->bw

    map script continents -> I would think about GLH again.

    Ugly leader btw, don't like him, like at all.
     
  3. plasmacannon

    plasmacannon Emperor

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    Looks like your mentor might prefer McDonalds to Burger King ;)

    I agree with the SIP strategy.
    Save the Corn for the city to the west.
    3 visible grassland hills, one being on the river, with possible more in the darkness.
    Decient start.
    You're right about the Traits. I like to add, if you do find stone nearby, building walls+castles will earn you +1 Trade Routes and +1 Spy Points/turn.
    So, you can gain some income, if conditions are right, and other options are taken away from you, by the AI, such as the Great Lighthouse
    This will be a good wonder to get here, since, you do start on the coast.
     
  4. vicawoo

    vicawoo Chieftain

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    Agriculture-mining-bw means you can try to whip the settler at size 2.

    Fishing, difficult without any production.

    You might get lucky with a strategic resource 1S
     
  5. Harv

    Harv Emperor Supporter

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    Hindsight says I might have done better Regenerating the Start until I got the Plains Cow Bug.

    You two might be right about SIP. The change in City Site exchanges 1 Grassland Hills Forest for 1 Grassland. The move exchanges another Grassland Hills Forest for a Wet Corn, the 2 Unknown Grassland + 1 Grassland Forest for 1 Grassland River + 1 Plains River, 2 Coast + 1 Ocean get exchanged for 4 Coast.

    The scout moved 2 West and revealed some Grassland Pigs so I can make one or two great city sites to the west. SIP ended up making so much sense I ended up doing it. Here is what it revealed.

    Spoiler :



    Wow I was not expecting two more Corn out of the deal! I would be really surprised if the Grassland square to the south would reveal anything.

    There is definately an island to the south. I do not know if it is a small island or a large Subcontinent. Much of the land to the north looks like scrap and the good sites are Coastal. I can make a city or two to the West and one to the North sharing the Corn.

    Definately Agriculture - Mining - Bronze Working to start. Run Slavery. Whip Settlers at Size 4 and interbuild Warriors. Build Workers at Size 4 to unload Whip Anger. I am guessing my Continent is split into two Islands and either I share my island or I have it to myself. Maybe I can fill it quickly without going bankrupt.

    Animal Husbandry is number 4 on my list since my copper is likely to be far away, then Fishing and Pottery. After that I guess is Sailing and Masonry to gain access to the Great Lighthouse.

    The Great Lighthouse is looking better and better on this map. I think I should get it as fast as possible.

    For the Scout I am leaning towards fogbusting a path to a city site around the coastal plains to the north. I can verify the size of the Island in good time and my start is very food heavy and therefore I will start light on Warriors.
     
  6. GGracchus

    GGracchus Tribune of Rome

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    3 corn? What is this?

    Agree with your first three tech choices, and AH is probably also a good bet given you have no lack of food. After that you probably want fishing.
     
  7. Harv

    Harv Emperor Supporter

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    ^^ What is this? Did you not hear the Burger King lost his job? I guess now he is in the Corn / Ethanol business.

    I was going to play a turnset up to the point where I build the first settler but stopped at Bronze Working.

    Research was what everybody was pretty much agreed on:
    Turn 10 - Agriculture
    Turn 18 - Mining
    Turn 33 - Bronze Working
    I have no Commerce - so everything is starting a little bit slow.

    Production is also a bit slow.
    Turn 15 - Worker
    Turn 28 - Warrior

    Here are the Demographics for the number crunchers:
    Spoiler :

    Turn 1


    At least one leader is Charismatic and possibly two. The numbers truncate.
    Expansive is out there.

    Turn 3


    Land Area jumped by 8 Squares, going from a total of 47 to a total of 55. This means one Leader is Creative. His land area jumped from 5 to 13 so the Creative Leader is very much Coastal.

    Turn 5


    A lot of civilizations appear to be landlocked.


    Turn 3 - I saw a neighbor on the previous turn and now I know who it is!

    Spoiler :




    Joao of Portugal! I think quick expansion must be a big priority! There is not much land out there and it must go quickly!

    Turn 9 - Somebody founded Buddhism
    Turn 11 - Somebody founded Hinduism
    So we have two Religious Nutjobs who start with Spiritual out there somewhere.

    It appears he has another neighbor based on my Espionage points but I am going to focus on expanding instead of finding out who this is.

    Here is a map of my situation at Turn 33:
    Spoiler :




    There are some good city sites but not much room to expand. I was going to go ahead and complete the Settler but I have a few decisions to make:

    1. I just researched Bronze Working. Do I research Animal Husbandry or do I research The Wheel? I am bent towards Food over Resources any day but I will need to connect my cities sometime.

    2. There is Copper nearby and it is in a pretty good but safe location. The city site will have access to Pigs. Do I settle this site immediately or a bit later?

    3. When I settle westward do I choose one or two city sites? If I choose two, one for the Corn and one for the Pigs, do I settle the further one first to block off the closer one?

    Here is what I am thinking: I research Animal Husbandry - The Wheel - Fishing - Pottery? - Sailing - Masonry and this gives me a path to the Great Lighhouse.

    I settle down the south coast. The second city should be at (-3,-1) just north of the Corn. The third city should be at (-6,-1) just north of the Pigs. I should have trade access along the coast. The fourth city can be at (0,4) to claim the Copper. Then I have to race Joao for the Gold and Stone and I might try for a lousy city site there assuming that I do not find food in that area. Failing the Stone I can still grab the Gold from a coastal site that has access to the Pigs.

    This is only my second game at Emperor level so I do not have much feel for how many cities I can build before going broke. I think five or six is the limit until I get a good source of Commerce.

    The Great Lighthouse is looking better! All of my initial cities are coastal except possibly one.
     

    Attached Files:

  8. Mylene

    Mylene Deity

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    Normally i would say you cannot afford AH if you want GLH, it brings in no beakers and you will probably be stuck with teching sailing/masonry very slow. But i don't know how it plays on Emperor :)
     
  9. diegovelasco45

    diegovelasco45 Casual civ4 emperor lvl

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    Yep, I wouldnt advice for GLH. However I like the idea of fishing for an early workboat to scout the little island in front and then work the clams.

    On the question at hand, yes I would settle between the pig and the copper because it can start to work the corn for early growth and then the next settler to block joao. (Currently, I play only emperor)
     
  10. fyermind

    fyermind Chieftain

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    I'm only a a monarch player so take all this with a grain of salt, but that seems like a long time to wait for writing. You have a lot of food in your area so scientists look like your best source of early beakers. You may need fishing to start working some coast just for the 2 commerce, but hopefully not. I'd settle between the pigs and copper and have both cities build warriors/settlers/workers/(workboat?) until expansion is impossible. Try to grab the gold in your fourth city or something because happiness will be important with all your food and whips.

    If you do go for GLH try to scout/settle the southern landmass for intercontinental routes early-ish.
    Scientists Tech path: (Fishing?)-wheel-pottery-writing-animal husbandry
    GLH tech path: Fishing-Sailing-Masonry-Wheel-Animal Husbandry-Writing-Pottery
     
  11. Fleme

    Fleme Obey the Kitty!

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    Rushing is prudent. Joao will choke you to no end if you don't act fast and leave you with very limited land, given how close he is. Place your second city next to the copper and go for axes - if there's an opportune window to take on Joao it's definitely in the early game when he's busy building settlers.

    That said, research Wheel and go for the rush.
     
  12. Sian

    Sian Emperor

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    i'd steal corn from the cap for the copper (building 1s of copper) and use the pig for a city tagging the gold (1w or 2w1n depending on fog)
     
  13. LitHouse

    LitHouse Chieftain

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    I think it depends on the maps people usually play. When I got back on the site and read the forums the other day, I was surprised to see many people dogging Pro. BUT... if you usually play on Archipelago or Continents with 1 neighbor (err I mean 1 'Victim' LOL), I can see why Pro is seen as much less valuable. When I play I'm usually on a Pangaea, where I might have 4 neighbors, 1 of whom might be Ragnar or Monty. I defend a lot. I build lots of archery units and lots of walls. I like Pro. :)

    Castles OTOH are a different thing and very game specific. Sometimes Eng comes right before Econ and no castles get built. If I have an espionage generating city and/or a need for trebs, I might get Eng 100s of turns before Econ and build them in most cities. Pro will help decide that... with a Pro leader, am more likely to build Great Wall and ToA, knowing I will be going towards earlier Eng to build castles.
     
  14. Abegweit

    Abegweit Anarchist trader

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    Exactly.
     
  15. Abegweit

    Abegweit Anarchist trader

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    Settle it east of the copper. It can still share the corn. There is still space for a gold/pigs city.

    Not only is this location better, it conveniently brings the pigs into our cultural boarders so that gold doesn't require a border pop.
     
  16. Harv

    Harv Emperor Supporter

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    ^^ So I should Obey the Kitty and especially Obey the Kitty with the Gun. :)

    I believe you mean 1W of the Copper because that is a good city site in itself. 1E is in the Ocean. ;) As has been said before I can found another city to claim the Gold and that city will have access to the Pigs and Food will be shared all around.

    My Net Commerce will drop from 9 to 8 until I research The Wheel and road to the Capital which I need to do anyway to gain access to the Copper. It is going to be quite a few turns before I can get Axes up and running.

    So the plan we are discussing is as follows: (Expansion)
    1. Change the Research Plan to: The Wheel - Animal Husbandry - Fishing? - Pottery? - Writing?
    2. Settle a city at (0,4) to gain access to the Copper and the Pigs.
    3. Settle a third city at (-4,-1) which is the forested Grass Hill on the south coast. This will claim the Riverside Corn and the Pigs.
    4. Settle a fourth city at (-3,6) to gain access to the Gold.

    Here are the questions I have:
    1. My commerce is very weak. How many cities can I settle before going broke? (I am thinking three and that is it - so I should choose them very carefully!)
    2. Is it my imagination or does higher level really spoil the fun of being Imperialistic and expanding like crazy?
    3. I am thinking about building two or three Settlers in quick succession. Is this a good idea or will I go bankrupt?
    4. Should I settle one city along the South Coast or two?
    5. If I go for an Axe Rush like quite a few people are suggesting, how much time do I have to pull it off? (I am thinking Turn 65 and I should have access to Copper around Turn 45 to 50 so it is a pretty tight window.)
    6. Is there something going on with the CFC Servers or is it just me? I have been having trouble over the couple of days.
     
  17. bobbyboy29

    bobbyboy29 I was saying boo-urns...

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    This is very good advice. Also, if you get AH you can improve the pigs so when the gold city is founded it can work an improved food source from turn 0. Within 4 or so turns of founding the city it'll be size 2 and working gold already! That having been said. Eliminating Joao is probably priority numero uno. It's a tough call but you should probably do it with either just the cap and copper city, or maybe you'd be able to use the gold city as well as it will have a flying start as I mentioned above. Any other city would take too long to develop to help out in the war effort.
     
  18. Harv

    Harv Emperor Supporter

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    I have a sneaking sense that the decisions I make at this point will have a huge impact on the rest of the game - whether I fly or struggle or crash and burn.

    Therefore I am giving this stage a lot of time before I play out the next turnset. I might also play a very abbreviated turnset to found the second city (Prague) and see what people think.

    If the Axe Rush is in, then the Great Lighthouse / Colossus Combo is out. The Wheel is the only technology I need to pull off an Axe Rush.

    Would a fourth city before an Axe Attack definately bankrupt my economy?
     
  19. Abegweit

    Abegweit Anarchist trader

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    :lol:

    I believe you mean 1W of the Copper because that is a good city site in itself. 1E is in the Ocean. ;) As has been said before I can found another city to claim the Gold and that city will have access to the Pigs and Food will be shared all around.
    Yes. I meant west.

    Indeed. So use the time to build workers and settlers in the capital. At least four workers and two settlers.

    So the plan we are discussing is as follows: (Expansion)
    1. Change the Research Plan to: The Wheel - Animal Husbandry - Fishing? - Pottery? - Writing?
    Looks reasonable.

    2. Settle a city at (0,4) to gain access to the Copper and the Pigs.
    right

    3. Settle a third city at (-4,-1) which is the forested Grass Hill on the south coast. This will claim the Riverside Corn and the Pigs.
    There is room for two cities between the capitals

    4. Settle a fourth city at (-3,6) to gain access to the Gold.
    Definitely do it.

    Here are the questions I have:
    1. My commerce is very weak. How many cities can I settle before going broke? (I am thinking three and that is it - so I should choose them very carefully!)
    Three is right

    2. Is it my imagination or does higher level really spoil the fun of being Imperialistic and expanding like crazy?
    Imperialistic is a pretty weak trait.

    3. I am thinking about building two or three Settlers in quick succession. Is this a good idea or will I go bankrupt?
    You need workers badly. Plenty of chopping, roads and mines for them to build. You should really have built one before this settler. As it is, I would finish the settler and then go worker-worker-settler-worker. A fourth city is OK but I'd rather start the rush instead.

    4. Should I settle one city along the South Coast or two?
    Two

    5. If I go for an Axe Rush like quite a few people are suggesting, how much time do I have to pull it off? (I am thinking Turn 65 and I should have access to Copper around Turn 45 to 50 so it is a pretty tight window.)
    Joao is not a great unit spammer so I think you have a far amount. I wouldn't worry playing on emperor.

    6. Is there something going on with the CFC Servers or is it just me? I have been having trouble over the couple of days.
    I've had the same problem.
     
  20. Oggums

    Oggums King

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    I'm thinking settle 3-4 cities in this order:
    1 - copper (production)
    2 - 1SE of gold (cottage that river tile and grasslands-you'll need to start these cottages asap to pay for units/recover after the war)
    3 - 1N of corn (production)
    4 - 1N of pigs (production)

    Fourth city is if you can still afford it and Joao hasn't taken the spot already. You should have time for a fourth with cheap settlers and all that corn/chopping.

    I'd probably skip Fishing and do Wheel -> Pottery -> Archery -> Writing -> Alphabet. I like to build cheaper archers to leave for defense while my axes move on to next city. If you can swing Alphabet before you end of the war you can probably get a couple of techs for peace, but also, since your economy will crash hard, you'll probably need to build research in your production cities to get back on track (currency).

    Also, cottage river tiles at capital early, you'll need them. City 1N of corn can help work them.
     

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